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View Full Version : A few words and pics about teamtactics ;)



tigertalon
08-26-2005, 06:12 AM
Following text is highly reccomended to all online IL2 pilots (especially red ones http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Enjoy


WINGMAN TACTICS from http://bravo.raf662.com


Combat spread. The core of 56th FG fighting is the wingman relationship. Our standard formation is combat spread, or line abreast. Never ever fly in line astern formation. If you find yourself in trail, make a simultaneous 90 degree turn to regain combat spread, then return to the desired heading with the use of an in-place turn, also known as the tactical turn (see below).
The element in line abreast is next to invulnerable. Given a lateral spacing of 500-1000 yards, the blind spot is virtually nonexistent even in the P47-C. The team can handle multiple bandits in any direction, at any energy state. However, while cruising, if you lose separation you're blinding yourself and your wingman. Work with throttle, separation and comms to maintain the spread.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/wing.jpg

Tac turn. The tactical turn allows the element to change heading swiftly while retaining the combat spread and maintaining visual coverage to astern. The trick is to trade places in the turn by allowing the "outside" fighter to turn first. As the "inside" fighter, still on the old heading, observe his wingman sliding into his seven or five o'clock, he too initiates the turn. It's easy once you get the hang of it. Maintain speed throughout the turn - don't lose energy by pulling too hard. You may need to work a bit with throttle, lateral separation and small changes in altitude to reform. With practice, you should be able to turn together as swiftly and efficiently as you do on your own.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/btacturn.jpg


Offensive objectives. Remember that you're not flying in line abreast because it's pretty. You're there to KILL! And enjoy better security while doing it. The line abreast is not defensive, it's offensive at all times.

Bracket attack. Bandit spotted either co-alt or slightly lower in the team's forward quarter (i.e in any position forward of the wingline). The team positions for attack by opening up separation to put the bandit in the middle. Both fighters commit to the attack using sustained inward turns. The bandit must choose to defend against either, he cannot defend against both. Endgame. If endgame does not occur, keep working with separation, and use drag&bag as necessary.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/bbracket.jpg

Trail attack. Against an unsuspecting low bandit, or when either fighter attacks much sooner than the other, the wingman will trail into the attack. Picture a low bandit, level or climbing, or a dead six chase. Lead goes in to bounce, preferably from low six or out of the sun. Wingman hangs back, then follow up the lead's attack. If the lead misses, the wingman will get a clean, planform shot at the breaking enemy, or nail the startled bandit as he concentrates on the lead.

Defensive objectives. Neutralize the threat and transition to the attack. If unable to attack safely, disengage.

Cross Split. This maneuver allow a swift transition to the attack. The team spots a con at their six o'clock, his energy state may be negative, neutral or superior. It doesn't matter - you will turn the table on him regardless. Break toward your wingman, making a sustained turn to maintain E and sufficient separation. The bandit must choose either, he cannot attack both. The engaged fighter may need to perform guns defense while the free fighter convert to the bandit's six. Endgame. If endgame does not occur and the situation allows for engaged maneuvering, make sure to continue working the bandit from different directions in order to make him break or overtax his SA. If he breaks off combat, let him go unless you feel entirely safe to pursue and/or are in a position to kill him swiftly.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/bx.jpg

Half Split. Same situation again. This time only one fighter (the wingman) peel off some 45 degrees or enough to keep the bandit in sight, while standing by to turn back immediately if the bandit goes after the lead. Perform guns defense if necessary. In case of the bandit going after the wingman, the lead turns in and dispose of him. Depending on relative E-states, the engagement may lead to a classic sandwich or a bracket fight as above.

Drag&Bag. Entice the bandit to follow either fighter while the other sneak up in his cold six to dispose of him before he gets into guns range. Faking an attack with the wingman in trail usually scores easy kills.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/drag.jpg

Thach Weave. Primarily used when the team is too far from each other to perform any of the above, or wish to exit the general area and still clobber the bandit. Depending on energy state and the need to put distance behind you, scissor the bandit to death by reciprocating S-turns.

Note that this is NOT an individual flat scissors, but a TEAM scissors which opens and closes - with the bandit in the middle. The picture shown here is not totally correct in that regard. In a true Thach Weave, you will want to make more pronounced turns.

In high speed fights where you wish to extend, the turns are small unless the bandit is in firing range (which will force guns defense and lead to a 2v1 situation). Open up separation, then close it again to let yourself or your wingman to gain angles. The bandit will be totally at a disadvantage if you keep the radius small yet sufficient to gain angles, whereas you will risk head-on shots if you make big turns. Whenever the bandit stops tracking one of you (due to having to perform guns defense), he's meat on the table.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/bweave.jpg

How to drag.When you're desperate, don't head straight at a friend since this may force him into an unwanted an unneccessary head-on situation. Use separation and the fact that the bandit will present his cold six and set himself up for imminent eradication should he persist in chasing you. As soon as he breaks off, you're in a good position to reverse your break and exact sweet revenge - provided you're fit to do so.

Squadron tactics. With more than one element, we're at liberty to take on vast numbers with a certain degree of security. Whenever the lead element engages, the second element must decide whether to give immediate assistance or to keep station in the most likely threat direction.


Section in combat spread. The two elements making up the section are overlapped with the wingpair maintaining its standard separation. This formation has a rather small signature and navigates well, especially when there are lots of other ships in the vicinity. Don't confuse this with a traditional finger four, which usually has the wingman formatting much closer to the lead ship. The finger four is more suited for welded wing fighting, whereas this formation emphasizes loose deuce tactics.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/cspread.jpg

Echelon. Also known as sucked trail. Distance between elements approximately 4000 yards. Makes for a slightly less conspicious profile, especially on enemy radar screens, and retains the advantage with little added risk. Don't feel bad if you fall into elements in trail as long as you maintain combat spread within the pair. The trailing element usually comes as a very nasty surprise to bandits maneuvering against the leading pair.
In the very moment the leading element engages, the trailing element is "uncoupled" and is expected to make its own snap decisions according to the situation. As a rule, maintaining separation, i.e room to maneuver, is always good.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/ech.jpg

Sections in combat spread. Recommended distance between sections approximately 4000 yards. This gives an enormous tactical advantage in any situation. You do not wish to meet us in this configuration.

http://bravo.raf662.com/images/secline.jpg [/quote]

JG54_Arnie
08-26-2005, 06:23 AM
Cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Interesting stuff! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Kuna15
08-26-2005, 06:23 AM
Very nice. Now when most of the guys on server could adopt these fighter techniques (including me) I'm sure we would have happy flying time online. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HeinzBar
08-26-2005, 06:51 AM
S!,
Nice post TT. The illustrations are simple, but very effective http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB

73GIAP_Milan
08-26-2005, 06:55 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif good stuff, thanks for the head's up on these tactics!

FlatSpinMan
08-26-2005, 07:03 AM
Thanks, that was useful.

Daiichidoku
08-26-2005, 08:04 AM
****, i wish about 80% of ppl in online df servers would read the drag n bag part....

dunno how many time i could have been saved, or saved someone if they just did that, instaed of come striaght in

Kuna15
08-26-2005, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
****, i wish about 80% of ppl in online df servers would read the drag n bag part....

dunno how many time i could have been saved, or saved someone if they just did that, instaed of come striaght in

I especially like the part when I am finishing off enemy aircraft at 500m alt and my friend comes from 3,5k alt to 'help' me finish him.
Seconds later enemy aircraft is crashed, and we are jumped by two three enemy fighters...

Drag and bag mistake (rather NOT to drag and bag) what you have described and the scenario that I described in this post are two most common and biggest mistakes that a player can do online.

rnzoli
09-17-2005, 12:39 PM
It is somewhat strange, that when I hear about wingman tactics, it is always about 2 vs. 1 fight. Is that it?

How about 2 vs. 2 fight, i.e., when you have 2 teams against each other, not the usually described single poor chap against 2 well-coordinating fighters? More specifically, will this 2 vs. 2 fight simply break down to 2 separate 1 vs. 1 fights, or there is another solution to this rarely mentioned, but not so unusual scenario?

vanjast
09-17-2005, 01:49 PM
Sound tactics, but as we all know it probably only works for the first 5 or 10 secs as the 'enemy' are using the same tactics and all hell breaks loose.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LeadSpitter_
09-17-2005, 04:08 PM
Looks like kurfursts charts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Badsight.
09-17-2005, 04:18 PM
winging or alone , set moves & planned attacks dont work online

FritzGryphon
09-17-2005, 04:50 PM
They might not unfold exactly as you see in the diagrams, but it would be important to incorporate these tactics into your play.

For example, any FW pilot should be able to drag'n'bag in his sleep http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Monty_Thrud
09-17-2005, 05:14 PM
And!...dont forget a 2 second burst and a overmodelled turn rate...no i dont mean the spitfire...

OH!..hang on its superior team tactics...but there wasnt a team behind me... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WWSensei
09-17-2005, 05:33 PM
The idea that set moves don't work is because people expect them to play out exactly as they are drawn with no variance. Things will vary and they might change rapidly, but knowing how to recognize and adapt to them is what wins.

It takes practice to learn when a high yo-yo will work for you and when it will get you killed. Knowing when to pull lead pursuit or lag pursuit, having your wingmen roll away from the enemy when smash is too great, understanding when to reverse lead/wingman roles etc are all necessary.

It's not knowing these kind of tactics that gets people killed in sims. If there are 1000 things in a dogfight that can get a sim pilot killed 998 of them are due to his improper use of tactics. The 999th reason is your computer doesn't have the horsepower to fly the game effectively. The 1000th and least likely is an undermodelled or over-modelled flight model in the game.

Guess which ones virtual "fighter pilots" blame the most?

Taylortony
09-17-2005, 07:08 PM
Excellent, but you did miss one important manouever out that we all are familiar with...


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/il2skins/UBID.jpg

Tachyon1000
09-17-2005, 11:10 PM
You need to fly with a wingman pretty consistently to be able to pull off any of these manuevers as regards their timing, etc. Nearly as I can tell, most online servers are air-quake and few actually fly with a consistent wingman unless they do so as part of their squadron activities. That limits the viability of most of these tactics.

WWSensei
09-17-2005, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Tachyon1000:
You need to fly with a wingman pretty consistently to be able to pull off any of these manuevers as regards their timing, etc. Nearly as I can tell, most online servers are air-quake and few actually fly with a consistent wingman unless they do so as part of their squadron activities. That limits the viability of most of these tactics.

Bingo. And is the primary reason people don't get historical results with their a-historical play--rendering almost all of the flight model/damage model/anything modelling a moot point.

Badsight.
09-18-2005, 12:31 AM
tactics , set moves - whatever , DF's dont play out how you want . Dogfighting is a "in the moment" thing , best wingman tactic there is is to be a quick killer . time & again wingmen have let me kill their lead because they were not able to land the shots on me while i did to him

if you have a consistent wingman your lucky . it dont guarantee success but your instantly twice as likely to survive

id say historical based flying is mostly reliant on historical modeling of the planes your using , because the wingman tactics that work , work regardless of what you use

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 02:11 AM
Totally correct Badsight, and that all issue is close related to good gunnery issue. While his leader attacks selected target, wingman must protect his leader from enemy fighter attacks. Since that situations require quick kills it is desirable that wingman is good on gunnery http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

If he miss bandit, leader will likely have to either dive for safety or make evasive moves, and that leads to serious problems such are element dispersing, losing advantage etc.

Every tactic is max. good as gunnery of the pilot is. What is the use of good bnz jump from above when it takes 3+ passes to hit bandit, while in that time pilot will most likely have half of enemy airforce on his tail. And his wingman, too. They must be efficient and quick as possible.

rnzoli
09-18-2005, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
tactics , set moves - whatever , DF's dont play out how you want . Dogfighting is a "in the moment" thing
Maybe your pre-assumption is that tactics are practiced in advance are rigid and unchangeable. You can be wrong on that one. I would say that combat manouvering with a lead/wing aircraft can be just as "in the moment thing", as individual dogfighting.

What makes it difficult is the additional steps on the learning curve. Not enough to know your plane, you enemies and your own manouvers, you have to add your partner into situational awareness as well, including what he can/cannot do. So it definitely takes more time and practice.

However, for average Joes like me, it could be more rewarding to practice teamwork, rather than trying to be the ace of aces alone.

Once our best dogfighter was deeply disappointed because 2 of us, far worse in competence, coordinated via radio and significantly increased our chances of bringing him down. He was outright frustrated by the end and said that 2 vs. 1 is not dogfight, it's plain execution. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
09-18-2005, 04:38 AM
I've often defeated two planes working together before; those plans make little allowance for a bandit that can outclimb you by a reasonable margin. So, like Bad suggests, DF almost entirely requires on the spot thinking. OK, so a bandit will sometimes follow the textbook and do what you expect but an experienced pilot (and, lets face it, with refly most online DF pilot are far more experienced than wartime RL pilots) can see what is coming and can foil the plan.

Ta.
Norris

Badsight.
09-18-2005, 04:58 AM
Exactly Norris , team-combat in FB has got more to do with knowing DF patterns than any of the more advanced wingman techniques

in patch v3.04 in war-clouds (& i loath to use this server as an example of FB flying) i was able to keep 5 Bf109's under me as i worked 3 of them shot down . . . . . . . . . but to see how the engagment starts (especially how it starts , as no fight ever starts 100% evenly) & then plays out is the key to understanding why something worked or not - the worst thing is to only go by what you see happening from your point of view only

9/10th's of successfull wingmanship in FB depends on basic sticking together more than any real in-depth element flying due to the extreme manouvers we pull over RL , & if you got good team-mates who do that for the whole flight - you is lucky

Originally posted by rnzoli:
Once our best dogfighter was deeply disappointed because 2 of us, far worse in competence, coordinated via radio and significantly increased our chances of bringing him down. He was outright frustrated by the end and said that 2 vs. 1 is not dogfight, it's plain execution. yes almost 10 out of 10 times a 2v1 should result in the 1 being destroyed , when it doesnt its thru one of the 2 easing up & not maintaing the pressure on the bandit allowing him to work on getting a shot off

JtD
09-18-2005, 05:33 AM
I disagree badsight, most of these maneuvers work out of the book. The only thing you have to take care of is which to do when.

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 07:36 AM
While we are at it, I cant remember how many times I have destroyed enemy aircraft that is climbing towards friendly plane that is missed bnz pass on him few seconds before.

He evaded the attack and went in vertical climb after friendly in void attempt to hit him, all I have to do is line up on him and fill him with holes (ain't so hard to do, I can even wait 'till he's outta energy completey than shoot without any lead at all - directly at his plane). I bet after few times that he got that kind of treatment, he wont do that again, and instead he will run for help or base etc.

rnzoli
09-18-2005, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
While we are at it, I cant remember how many times I have destroyed enemy aircraft that is climbing towards friendly plane that is missed bnz pass on him few seconds before.

He evaded the attack and went in vertical climb after friendly in void attempt to hit him, all I have to do is line up on him and fill him with holes
Hey, isn't this drag & bag on the vertical axis?! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rnzoli
09-18-2005, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
9/10th's of successfull wingmanship in FB depends on basic sticking together more than any real in-depth element flying due to the extreme manouvers we pull over RL , & if you got good team-mates who do that for the whole flight - you is lucky
My limited experience says the same. If the 2 planes keep close together, that makes them a tougher target and a more formidable attacker.

However, I must say that keeping together can be easier, if the lead and wing knows at the the theory of basic team tactics, because it makes it easier to communicate over the radio, and lessen the chances of fatal misunderstandings.

SithSpeeder
09-18-2005, 11:00 AM
rnzoli--

Try reading Robert Shaw's book "Fighter Combat" (see http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087021059...nce&s=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870210599/qid=1127062815/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-9593232-8018568?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)). It goes into 1 vs. 2, 2 vs 2, 2 vs many, etc. in pretty good detail.

* _54th_Speeder *

rnzoli
09-18-2005, 02:11 PM
I will, thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, if you have read it already, can you tell me if it helped YOUR team tactics?

NorrisMcWhirter
09-18-2005, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
9/10th's of successfull wingmanship in FB depends on basic sticking together more than any real in-depth element flying due to the extreme manouvers we pull over RL , & if you got good team-mates who do that for the whole flight - you is lucky
My limited experience says the same. If the 2 planes keep close together, that makes them a tougher target and a more formidable attacker.

However, I must say that keeping together can be easier, if the lead and wing knows at the the theory of basic team tactics, because it makes it easier to communicate over the radio, and lessen the chances of fatal misunderstandings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 working together should be formidable...but they are often not as they have something extra to worry about - their wingman. If they stick together, they just make a bigger target; if they split up, they have something extra to concentrate on and that is where there wingman actually is.

So, the defender has two "bandits" to worry about and so does each of the attackers. Couple that with them trying to recall/apply some technique, or trying to work out who is going to do what, and you have a recipe for disaster.

If one of them can get the bandit target fixated, they will win. If they can't, they have no real advantage.

Ta,
norris

SithSpeeder
09-18-2005, 10:05 PM
rnzoli--

In response to your question, I would say that it certainly has. It is not a panacea, per se, but it adds a whole new dimension to communicating with a wingman who has also studied the tactics and terminology.

Granted, it would be better to take a squad or similarly like minded group of learners and have several training sessions to practice these tactics with so that you could associate the maneuvers with the proper terminology. And of course, it takes practice to keep it going.

Unfortunately, the good pilots in my squad already did things instinctively because they had flown so much together over a long time.

You can learn the gist of it by flying with a group who really covers each other and communicates well.

YMMV.

* _54th_Speeder *