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Taylortony
07-23-2005, 08:35 AM
P-40 spin characteristics
The late Erik Shilling posted the following on a Usenet news group in answer to a flight simmers question about how the P-36 differed from the P-40. (They are essentially the same airplane, the 36 with a radial engine and the 40 with a liquid-cooled, in-line Allison.) Comments in brackets [] are mine. -- Dan Ford


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The spin characteristic of the P-36 was entirely different from that of the P-40; the spin/ snap roll of the P-36 was quite violent. I was unable to snap or spin any of the P-40B's that I had flown although I tried without success. The difference was due to a cuff place [placed] on the wing root of the P-40, but absent on the P-36.

Spin recovery for the P-36 was the standard NACA recovery. Flat spin recovery was pro spin: full aileron into the spin, stick full back, and rudder into the spin. When the [nose] dropped and normal spin developed, [standard] NACA recovery was used. [I reckon this is the spin recovery I was taught: power off, neutralize the stick, and kick full opposite rudder to the airplane's rotation. Once the plane stops spinning, be ready to counteract if it begins to spin in the other direction. Then pull back hard to recover from the dive.--DF]

However the P-40 had a vicious tumble (end over end) if a stall was entered into at a nose high position of about 60 degrees above the horizon. To recover from the tumble you reduced power and went along for the ride with all controls in neutral. After about 12,000 feet the nose settled into a vertical dive from which recovery was normal.

Erik

[It's that last paragraph that made me want to post this memoir for the ages. The notion of a plane revolving around its pitch axis, and of going "along for the ride" while it dropped more than two miles, makes me happy that I did my spin training in a Great Lakes trainer and not a P-40.--DF]


from

http://www.warbirdforum.com/avg.htm

Tully__
07-23-2005, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
P-40 spin characteristics

[It's that last paragraph that made me want to post this memoir for the ages. The notion of a plane revolving around its pitch axis, and of going "along for the ride" while it dropped more than two miles, makes me happy that I did my spin training in a Great Lakes trainer and not a P-40.--DF] Gulp indeed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Udidtoo
07-23-2005, 08:56 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif 2 miles! I'd have time to mess myself, clean up, change into fresh kecks and do it again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

wayno7777
07-23-2005, 10:34 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Also gives you enough time to get out...

Pirschjaeger
07-23-2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by wayno7777:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Also gives you enough time to get out...

After parachuting to the ground, cutting the ropes, finding a good lawnchair and a cold beer, you could enjoy watching the show(epileptic P-40) for atleast a few gulps. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

LeadSpitter_
07-23-2005, 11:38 AM
I would love to see that in game for many ac, no more fishflop and auto center like your on bungee chords in 50m.

12,000 feet 3100 somthing meters, we all seen these stalls on the deck where the plane doesnt go in so close to the ground.

Pirschjaeger
07-23-2005, 12:06 PM
Now that you mention it, it seems to me that with the new flight model the planes stall easier but also recover easier. I don't fly all of them and haven't flown much since 4.01, so maybe it's my mistake. Just curious, has anyone else noticed this?

About the plane being out of control for 12,000 feet, it seems to me that many factors would come into play, such as trim settings, fuel quantities, armourment, alt, speed, wind just to name a few. To me, if I assume correctly, this 12,000 foot situation wouldn't happen consistantly. Am I correct in my assumption?

Fritz

Udidtoo
07-23-2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Now that you mention it, it seems to me that with the new flight model the planes stall easier but also recover easier. I don't fly all of them and haven't flown much since 4.01, so maybe it's my mistake. Just curious, has anyone else noticed this?

About the plane being out of control for 12,000 feet, it seems to me that many factors would come into play, such as trim settings, fuel quantities, armourment, alt, speed, wind just to name a few. To me, if I assume correctly, this 12,000 foot situation wouldn't happen consistantly. Am I correct in my assumption?

Fritz

With so many variables in setups, different equipment,tensions in the setup for said equipment its a given that there will be different responses to your question.

With 4.01 I am finding that the best thing to do is do nothing. I try and fly them all and most of the planes self correct now in an incredibly short time.

IMO your correct about the ease of both stalling and recovery. I suppose if I had to choose between to difficult or too easy I'd rather have Oleg err towards easy.

That being said look at the altitude the man is talking about in the post above. There was a fair amount of people who said they encounterd far to many stalls that were unrecoverable pre-4.1....if it took 12,000 ft then any typical engagement on HL lacked roughly 10,000 to test his technique. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
07-23-2005, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Now that you mention it, it seems to me that with the new flight model the planes stall easier but also recover easier. I don't fly all of them and haven't flown much since 4.01, so maybe it's my mistake. Just curious, has anyone else noticed this?

About the plane being out of control for 12,000 feet, it seems to me that many factors would come into play, such as trim settings, fuel quantities, armourment, alt, speed, wind just to name a few. To me, if I assume correctly, this 12,000 foot situation wouldn't happen consistantly. Am I correct in my assumption?

Fritz

With so many variables in setups, different equipment,tensions in the setup for said equipment its a given that there will be different responses to your question.

With 4.01 I am finding that the best thing to do is do nothing. I try and fly them all and most of the planes self correct now in an incredibly short time.

IMO your correct about the ease of both stalling and recovery. I suppose if I had to choose between to difficult or too easy I'd rather have Oleg err towards easy.

That being said look at the altitude the man is talking about in the post above. There was a fair amount of people who said they encounterd far to many stalls that were unrecoverable pre-4.1....if it took 12,000 ft then any typical engagement on HL lacked roughly 10,000 to test his technique. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We'll have to ask Cajun then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

He flies the P-47, very high http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Fritz

AerialTarget
07-23-2005, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
"I was unable to snap or spin any of the P-40B's that I had flown although I tried without success."

Interesting; the official training video mentions that any stall in a P-40 results in a spin that loses "a thousand feet per turn." Maybe that's the later models with bigger engines.

Fehler
07-24-2005, 12:01 AM
Actually, I and another person here, saw a P-38 go into an end over end spin in 4.01. I dont know how he did it, and I was unable to do it myself, but I saw it. The pilot was able to recover though, and I was totally amazed!

LEXX_Luthor
07-24-2005, 02:13 AM
wayno::
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Also gives you enough time to get out...
Scary. How to "get out" when in a tumble?

Was the tumble, following nose high stall, forward or backward?

Taylortony
07-24-2005, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by Fehler:
Actually, I and another person here, saw a P-38 go into an end over end spin in 4.01. I dont know how he did it, and I was unable to do it myself, but I saw it. The pilot was able to recover though, and I was totally amazed!


I have done it myself in the ME163 pocket rocket jobbie... was awesome from the cockpit, had to go external to see what the heck was going on lol, just went vertical wouth power reduced till it stalled.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
07-24-2005, 11:07 AM
I've managed to put the 109G2, 190A4, and the Bf110 into end over end stalls but I think it has nothing to do with the flight model, with the exception of the fact I'm not used to the new FM or stick yet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW, ever notice how easy a twin engine plane is in stall recovery? Just use one engine. I also noticed the 109 is easier to recover with the new FM. Love that engine torque. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

Cajun76
07-24-2005, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

We'll have to ask Cajun then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

He flies the P-47, very high http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Fritz


Yes, but I rarely stall it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif My stick settings were toned down long before 4.01 ever came out to control the P-47's pitch at high speed, and make the Fw-190 roll less sensitive as well, at least in the first 50% of travel.

I snap stalled earlier today and in earlier versions I would have been in a spin, possibly losing a lot of alt. As soon as I enterd it I let the the stick go neutral and she recovered after a complete roll. Lost a bit of speed and angle, but not enough to put me in a bad position. (I try to keep some extra speed and angle in my pocket with me at all times, the P-47 dosen't get it for free like most a/c. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Lately, I feel confident at anything over 3000m if I have a full head of steam, even if they're higher. BnZ has it's uses, screaming down from above, but I much prefer to E fight, and E fighting a Jug against opponents who can outurn and outclimb you has it's own rewards, whether I win or lose. When you stop learning, you die. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


He flies the P-47, very high http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

A guy winging with me today commented about the high altitudes we were getting into and that he was used to medium alt. We were just passing 3000m... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Nothing really against him, different strokes for different folks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AerialTarget
07-24-2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Fehler:
Actually, I and another person here, saw a P-38 go into an end over end spin in 4.01. I dont know how he did it, and I was unable to do it myself, but I saw it. The pilot was able to recover though, and I was totally amazed!

It's quite easy to do. Just do a hammerhead without the rudder part, or a tailslide. This bit of the new flight model hurt me quite a bit, as I used to rope the dope by doing this. Now, if I try that, I go into a tumble. I have to keep my speed above stall speed, and do a real hammerhead.

I don't quite think that it's realistic. I've never heard of a P-38 tumbling before.

Enforcer572005
07-24-2005, 02:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

wanna wet your fruit of the looms? try some low level combat in an I-16.....the Luftwaffe rarely kills me, but i usually kill myself.

wayno7777
07-24-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
wayno:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Also gives you enough time to get out...
Scary. How to "get out" when in a tumble?

Was the tumble, following nose high stall, forward or backward? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You usually get thrown out...

Taylortony
07-24-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by wayno7777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
wayno:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Also gives you enough time to get out...
Scary. How to "get out" when in a tumble?

Was the tumble, following nose high stall, forward or backward? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You usually get thrown out... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmmm, sounds like you would get your Butt cheeks parted by the fin.......... Bet that would play havoc with the HF aerial reception