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View Full Version : simulated pilots can stand too many g before balcking out



raaaid
05-26-2010, 05:03 AM
i still recall something i heard as kid:

after constant blaberish of weather which the mesersmitch or the spit turn better it was evident that both ships could turn harder than pilots could stand, so it was up to the pilot

this g duels could be simulated in the game just by lowering the g's at which black out happens

Erkki_M
05-26-2010, 05:34 AM
In real life, the pilot can control his craft even when his eyes have blacked out long ago.

Not so in game.

Whats the say, Spitfire Mk. V's speed at which it has the best rate of turn? And what is the angular speed there? Using full available engine power, at altitude a.

Shouldnt be too hard to calculate how many "G"s the pilot feels, and to which direction...

IMHO blackouts come perhaps a bit late(however you must notice that it is not just the amount of "G", but also the time it effects), but with the pilot quickly losing control over his machine after certain limit, its more than enough...

DKoor
05-26-2010, 05:44 AM
In game we can control our aircraft in every case except when we are dead which apparently wasn't the case IRL. Trim works really well in any case of blackout thus rendering it to a ridiculous state.
Trim on a slider looks like a joke compared to how bad this is.

JtD
05-26-2010, 06:55 AM
I think the g limits in game are fairly accurate for a well trained person. I've seen tests with untrained people that could take 7g's right away while in a seated position. That's more than our trained pilots in game can take. But, to be fair, there aren't many who can take 7g's without proper training.

TinyTim
05-26-2010, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
In real life, the pilot can control his craft even when his eyes have blacked out long ago.


Erm... what?

TinyTim
05-26-2010, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
I think the g limits in game are fairly accurate for a well trained person. I've seen tests with untrained people that could take 7g's right away while in a seated position. That's more than our trained pilots in game can take. But, to be fair, there aren't many who can take 7g's without proper training.

While that might be OK I think the issue is in sustained high G maneouvering. There is no penalty in the sim - you can do 6g turns for 15 minutes with no consequences whatsoever. IRL however things appear to be different.

These things might be extremely hard to try to simulate, especially due to human individuality, but at least some kind of simulation would be better than nothing. Maybe some kind of virtual "bar" which would be filling up during high G maneouvers, and slowly going back down during low G. The higher the bar, the more blurry the vision or something.

Kettenhunde
05-26-2010, 10:27 AM
Average fighter pilot in a seated upright position tolerances:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3487/fig0402.gif (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/fig0402.gif/)

5G's for ~5.5 seconds will cause GLOC in the average pilot.

Graying out also causes a period of disorientation lasting from ~30 seconds to 1.5 minutes. A USAF study concluded that although a very high percentage of pilots felt they were accurately tracking a target under load factor, the reality was the tracking error was ~85% with load. The higher the load factor and longer the time, the greater the error.

Lot of variables but one of the major ones is seating position. A reclined position with your feet on level with your torso increases tolerances dramatically.

Romanator21
05-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Pulling G's is also physically taxing. It becomes harder to pull each time. Add to that a mental workout of managing your engine and playing aerial chess, and you will certainly be dead tired by the time a fight is over. Cruising home would seem like a marathon.

But the reality is not something sim pilots will ever experience.

I'm guessing that's what's simulated in Il-2 when we lose control after blacking out - sheer exhaustion and inability to move the stick, rather than simple loss of consciousness.

I would offer that maybe we can try to fake the experience a little better by making the controls less effective, and making the disorienting head-bobbing more pronounced each time a certain G limit is reached. So, if you pull 9 Gs all the time, your controls will become less responsive very quickly, and it will be hard to keep your head in line with the sight, simulating fatigue, and things only return to normal gradually. Being conservative in maneuvers and never pulling more than 4 Gs will still affect you, though not as much, and recovery will be quicker.

BillSwagger
05-26-2010, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
In real life, the pilot can control his craft even when his eyes have blacked out long ago.


Erm... what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its what they refer to as "graying out", where a loss of sight or decrease in visual acuity occurs but their is no actual loss of consciousness.
Repeated high G maneuvers can even disorient the pilot despite his visual awareness.
There are physiological factors for this, partly because blood flow to the eyes, and also because a large portion of the human brain is dedicated to visual reception. A disruption in the blood flow can cause acute blindness or disrupt the way the pilot orients himself with the aircraft, and his enviornment. I would say its probably like flying when you are dizzy or experiencing a lot of vertigo, all while flying in a situation that has you actually spinning or exerting actual forces. Tracking and orientation can become very difficult.
Its part of pilot training to be able to name each control and instrument in a cockpit with a blindfold on. Blacking out would be one reason, but serious injury can also cause problems for the pilots vision or judgment.
A lack of O2 can also cause the pilot to develop hypoxia which can cause problems for pilots and their judgment.



Bill

DKoor
05-26-2010, 03:40 PM
Well one thing is certain... no one wants to meet this chick outhere;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...56Ew&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi1uIAu56Ew&feature=related)

...around 15 seconds under 9Gs... I wonder no more about those Soviet chick aces who blew up the Germans... female pilots rock!

Wildnoob
05-26-2010, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Well one thing is certain... no one wants to meet this chick outhere;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...56Ew&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi1uIAu56Ew&feature=related)

...around 15 seconds under 9Gs... I wonder no more about those Soviet chick aces who blew up the Germans... female pilots rock!

It is been shown, in numerous studies that female pilots due to their different physiologies, can withstand more significant G rates.

JtD
05-26-2010, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:

While that might be OK I think the issue is in sustained high G maneouvering. There is no penalty in the sim - you can do 6g turns for 15 minutes with no consequences whatsoever. IRL however things appear to be different.

We have some sort of time dependency in the blackout model, as you can take unlimited g's for a short time, and thereafter you'll go down to the normal resistance level. So maybe this should best be summed up in stamina where g resistance is only a facet of. Physically there isn't much that makes you black out after 15 minutes more easily than after one, but you'll be terribly exhausted - with all sorts of side effects.

I completely agree that this would be very hard to model.