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View Full Version : The Battle of Britain: A German Perspective



luftluuver
08-24-2008, 08:06 PM
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/BOB/BoB-German/index.html

Written by

Lt Col Earle Lund, USAF
Joint Doctrine Air Campaign Course
Campaign Analysis Study
24 January 1996

thefruitbat
08-25-2008, 07:02 AM
Interesting read, thanks for posting,

fruitbat

Xiolablu3
08-25-2008, 08:28 AM
Good read, but isnt it written by a USAAF Colonel?

Hardly makes it a German perspective, I guess.

Kurfurst__
08-25-2008, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Good read, but isnt it written by a USAAF Colonel?

Hardly makes it a German perspective, I guess.

+1. It looks like this Colonel who wrote it did a bit of reading from Wood and Dempster book (which is not bad at all as far as a daily account of what happened, though considerably biased and dismissive, and somewhat ill-informed as far as the German side goes. Its a good summary though of the happenings on the British side.)

The German perspective of the Battle can be read on one of the USAAF's historical documents servers. Its an English translation of a German text, IIRC written during or shortly after the war. Highly recommended, especially as it gives a great insight what was the German strategic thinking at the time.

Manu-6S
08-25-2008, 04:25 PM
Steinhilper is enough for me... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

Chris0382
08-25-2008, 04:45 PM
WOW 100 octane fuel from America for Briton vs 89 Octane fuel for Germany. A fact I never knew of.

JSG72
08-25-2008, 05:51 PM
Yeh! and the Germans had to fly those inferior planes.

How did they manage. On Tactics alone?

berg417448
08-25-2008, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Chris0382:
WOW 100 octane fuel from America for Briton vs 89 Octane fuel for Germany. A fact I never knew of.

Perhaps I'm remembering this incorrectly but in previous discussions of this subject on these boards I seem to recall that the Germans and the Allies listed the numbers differently. What the Allies called 130 octane the Germans called 100 octane. Something about lean mix vs. rich mix...If my memory isn't too foggy.

luftluuver
08-25-2008, 06:08 PM
Yes berg, the Germans stated the lean mixture while the Allies stated the rich mixture.

Kettenhunde
08-25-2008, 07:44 PM
http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/numbered_studies/468155.pdf

M_Gunz
08-25-2008, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris0382:
WOW 100 octane fuel from America for Briton vs 89 Octane fuel for Germany. A fact I never knew of.

Perhaps I'm remembering this incorrectly but in previous discussions of this subject on these boards I seem to recall that the Germans and the Allies listed the numbers differently. What the Allies called 130 octane the Germans called 100 octane. Something about lean mix vs. rich mix...If my memory isn't too foggy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More than that, the 89 was B2 fuel wasn't it?
The C3 fuel our ATA 1.65 model uses was 90-some, true?
And then if I got it right there's the anti-knock additives that don't increase octane but
still allow higher compression, or is it boost to be used?

It's all very interesting until people start to play games about what matters for 10+ pages.
Screw em, the planes flew as well as they did and no revisionist changes that... if only the
actual speeds they flew at could be cleanly determined and not subject to, yes, revision!

Buzzsaw-
08-25-2008, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
I seem to recall that the Germans and the Allies listed the numbers differently. What the Allies called 130 octane the Germans called 100 octane. Something about lean mix vs. rich mix...If my memory isn't too foggy.

Not exactly.

Allies numbered their fuels by both lean and rich rating.

For example, the famous '150 octane' fuel which Oleg mentions in his aircraft discriptions, is rated 100/150, with 150 being the rich mixture rating. This fuel sometimes caused problems when run in cruise settings at high boost, lean mixture, with deposits forming on the spark plugs due to incomplete combustion. Pilots had to open up their throttle and run full boost every 1/2 hour or so to clean the plugs. This was most noticeable during the very long escort missions the 8th AAF ran. The US solved this problem in its next generation fuel, which was rated 115/145, but which did not appear till Jan. 1945, it was primarily used in the Pacific. Of all the Allied operated aircraft available in IL-2, only the 1944 P-47D-27, Mustang III, and Spit IX +25 are modelled with power levels as per 150 octane usage. In fact, all the 1944 Allied fighters used this fuel. We are missing a properly modelled Tempest, P-51D, and Mosquito, as well as the earlier Razorback P-47's.

The Germans usually used a single rating, but that does not translate as being equivalent to the Allied, because the Germans used a different set of additives to enhance their fuel's 'anti-detonation' rating.

Overall, the Allies were far ahead in their fuel technology, as seen by their aircraft engine's ability to run much higher boost and to compress a much higher mixture density into the combustion chamber without detonation problems.

Buzzsaw-
08-25-2008, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
More than that, the 89 was B2 fuel wasn't it?
The C3 fuel our ATA 1.65 model uses was 90-some, true?


B2 was 87.

C3 was 96, that was its lean rating, high was around 115 to 120, but again, German's used different, less effective anti-detonation agents, because of their lack of refining capacity and their lack of resources.

The BMW 801 radial engine series which powered the 190A's required C3 fuel to function at a decent efficiency. The Daimler Benz inline series used 87 octane, except for a few experiments with the C3 fuel. C3 was in short supply. Originally the 190D and its Jumo inline was going to be powered with C3 fuel, but ended up running B2, except for a short period in '44.

Because most of the German fighter force was running on poor quality 87 octane, engine life was very short by the end of the war.

>>>>>

Cue Kettenhunde or Kurfurst to respond with some anti-logic... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HuninMunin
08-25-2008, 11:54 PM
Cool.
BMW and DB made some crackin engines that they were delivering supreme performence on that crap fuel.
It's awesome how someone as "reknown" as you are comments on the logic of others. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Buzzsaw-
08-26-2008, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
It's awesome how someone as "reknown" as you are comments on the logic of others.

Yeah, we can see where you are coming from...

"Servant of Wotan and Donar" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Go back to your Nordic/Aryan fantasy.

HuninMunin
08-26-2008, 01:01 AM
You would do good reading the forum rules.
To imply that my religion is connected to facism and the Nazis is not only ignorant but also offensive.

PS
"Servant of Wotan and Donar" is actualy a direct allusion to my nickname.
But I'm not surprised that that is far behind your horizon.

Kurfurst__
08-26-2008, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Chris0382:
WOW 100 octane fuel from America for Briton vs 89 Octane fuel for Germany. A fact I never knew of.

In fact the Germans produced 100 octane domestically before the British (the British were importing it in 1940), and 100/150 grade fuel a year before in Britain, and in much greater quantities.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9323/britishproposalfor100ocgs4.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=britishproposalfor100ocgs4.jpg)

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/DB60x/files/109E4N_20Sept1940b_DFC.jpg

Take a look at the octane triangle on the fuselage with the '100' on it. Luftwaffe 100 octane use in Battle of Britain:
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/DB60x/DB601_datasheets_N.html



TECHNICAL REPORT NO. 145-45 MANUFACTURE OF AVIATION GASOLINE IN GERMANY
U. S. Naval Technical Mission In Europe, July 1945.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Fuel/German_..._and_production.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Fuel/German_fuel_specifications_and_production.html)

Summary of salient points:

* Two grades of aviation gasoline were produced one with a motor method octane number of 91, and the other of 95. The former labeled B-4 (blue) contained about 10 percent volume aromatics, while the latter, known as C-3 (green), contained about 40 percent volume aromatics and would thus allow much higher power output under rich mixture conditions. Both grades contained 4.35 cc. tetra-ethyl lead per gallon (American). The 50 percent distilled specifications were 221 and 230 degrees Fahrenheit, for B-4 and C-3, respectively.

* The B-4 grade was produced directly by the addition of tetra-ethyl lead to the entire liquid product from the large coal and coal tar hydrogenation plants. The volatility was adjusted to about 7 pounds Reid vapor pressure by stabilizing and no further refining or blending was done.

* The C-3 grade was a leaded blend of about 15 percent volume of synthetic isoparaffins and 85 percent volume of a base stock containing 45 to 50 percent volume aromatics, produced by further processing of a hydrogenated gasoline almost identical to unleaded B-4.

* The C-3 grade represented at least two-thirds (⅔) of the combined volume of the two grades.

* The C-3 grade corresponded roughly to the U. S. grade 130 gasoline, although the octane number of C-3 was specified to be only 95 and its lean mixture performance was somewhat poorer.

* At the end of 1942 a different kind of C-3 began to come into service with a still higher performance, and was equivalent to the Allied 150 grade.

* Jet fuels were being produced in Germany at a rate of ca. 1,000 barrels per day in 1944. The fuel was a mixture of gasoline and diesel oil fractions. The specifications for jet fuel were lenient; no unusual quality was demanded and no unusual specifications were forthcoming.


See also : Report on the Petroleum and Synthetic Oil Industry of Germany. Section H, Testing and Evaluating Products. Ministry of Fuel and Power, 1947.
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Fuel/mof-sec...ropsch_Archieves.pdf (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Fuel/mof-secth_Testing_and_Evaluating_Products_via_Fischer-Tropsch_Archieves.pdf)

The post-1942 C-3 grade was equivalent of 150 grade fuel. British production of 150 grade fuel did not start until 1944, and then only in limited quantities. (20-30 000 tons a month IIRC). Total German avgas production was 140-180 000 tons a month in 1943 and early 1944, roughly two-thirds of it was C-3 grade, ie. 100-120 000 tons a month.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Fuel/USSBS_fig22.gif

Regarding Buzzsaw's funnies - Here's a Daimler Benz DB 605D - powered Italian G-10 running at C-3 towards the end the war.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Boostclearances/C3/G10U4_Magg_Visconti_via109StoriaDelCaccia.jpg

Couple of more pictures of 109s using C-3 here : http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Boostclearan...5D_clearance198.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html)

There are plenty such pictures, Allied reports of crashed aircraft etc.

M_Gunz
08-26-2008, 03:05 AM
The British were getting how much of what fuels from Americans?
That much they had without having to produce, but it makes for neat little statistics.

Lack of aviation fuel became a big problem in Germany by late war is a fact.
They were even low of gas for tanks before the end, even after the war.

One of my Uncles stayed there. He told me of Germans running Mercedes Benz' on coal gas from
crude coal-fired stills in the car trunks to get around in spite of rationing. I asked how
fast they went and he said as fast as they wanted to, like 85 mph and higher.

I had read that there were Tigers converted to run on steam but I think the source of that may
have confused the same such method from only seeing the fire box and coming to false conclusion.
Tiger was run by Maybach diesel which can run on coal gas or much else but no way run on steam!

I wonder though how often an engine run that way would need to be overhauled?
We may find out soon enough the way gas prices are going.

Kettenhunde
08-26-2008, 03:40 AM
For example, the famous '150 octane' fuel which Oleg mentions in his aircraft discriptions, is rated 100/150, with 150 being the rich mixture rating.

If you don't about a subject, it is probably best not to try and educate others on it.


Avgas grades are defined primarily by their octane rating. Two ratings are applied to aviation gasolines (the lean mixture rating and the rich mixture rating) which results in a multiple numbering system e.g. Avgas 100/130 (in this case the lean mixture performance rating is 100 and the rich mixture rating is 130).



http://www.csgnetwork.com/avgas.html

All the best,

Crumpp

Kurfurst__
08-26-2008, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
The British were getting how much of what fuels from Americans?
That much they had without having to produce, but it makes for neat little statistics.

I believe most of their 100 octane supply through the war was coming from US shipments. Bomber Command used immense amounts of it. 150 grade was, however, only produced in Britain, though I believe towars the very end of the war the US was beginning to blend 145 grade fuel domestically, but it was a bit late for widespread use.


Lack of aviation fuel became a big problem in Germany by late war is a fact.
They were even low of gas for tanks before the end, even after the war.

This is very much true, just check one of the last scans I posted which shows German avgas supply (motor vehicles gas supply is another chart not discussed in it, as its high octane avgas-only. Motor vehicles run at awful crap octane fuels compared to modern car fuel..).

However that shortage towards the war came in late 1944, when the existing stockpiles were starting to run low, and it was not B-4/C-3 specific, but accross the range. C-3 as I understand it was essentially a B-4 fuel with more additives. The German problem was somewhat different than the Allied one. The Germans did not have enough oil to start with, though they had more than enough additives to "blend" high octane fuel. The Allied problem was the opposite, high octane fuel production was limited by the limited availability of the more exotic additives, rather than the lack of "base fuel", of which they had plenty.

JG53Frankyboy
08-26-2008, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/DB60x/files/109E4N_20Sept1940b_DFC.jpg

Take a look at the octane triangle on the fuselage with the '100' on it. Luftwaffe 100 octane use in Battle of Britain:
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Engine/DB60x/DB601_datasheets_N.html



.

you should realy replace that JG4 comment (there was no JG4 during BoB) to the correct II./JG26 designation - as we spoke about it in the past http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/955...321046295#8321046295 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9551034295?r=8321046295#8321046295) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

luftluuver
08-26-2008, 08:13 AM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/150pn.jpg

The Feb production of 150 grade fuel was 24,908 tons or 7,749,000 Imperial gallons (35,257,950l). The March production is 11,039,000 Imperial gallons (50,227,450l).

Vinnie_Gumbat
08-29-2008, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Yes berg, the Germans stated the lean mixture while the Allies stated the rich mixture.

Greetings friends and enemies.
Vinnie is back!

Allied "octane" ratings (Performance nunmbers if over 100 Octane)
were Lean/rich.

For instance, 115/145 was 115 lean, 145 rich.

Germans used a completely different system and "octane" numbers are not easily equated.
Typically German fuels as rated would be rated lower on the Allied scale (lean for lean).

This is NOT to say German fuels are inferior!

The US "Light California Grade" 100 octane fuel used
during the B.O.B. was first delivered aboard the ESSO tanker "SS Beaconhill" just before the
recognised start date for the B.O.B..

That fuel was "commercial 100 grade". In the US
at that time, as it is now, the fuel was rated LEAN only.

In USAAC nomenclature of the era it would be called 100/120.

I am NOT looking to start a flame war over the German fuel quality.
It is just that their rating and testing system is so different
than the Allies in 1940 that a direct comparison is not easily
made.

Vinnie

Kettenhunde
08-29-2008, 07:24 PM
you should realy replace that JG4 comment (there was no JG4 during BoB) to the correct II./JG26 designation - as we spoke about it in the past

It is marked as the second rotte rottenflieger for 1, 4, or 7 Staffel JG26.