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Dogfighter1969
05-11-2007, 05:42 AM
I have been playing IL-2 now since 2003 when I started with FB (and more recently PF). Since then I used to play semi-real only. This was due to a lack of time to really get into things. So I used to start in mid-air and quitted after I got the Mission Complete messages. From there on I would Apply and go on to the next mission. I know. It's a sin but thats what I did. I believe that there are many of you that also do it, so listen to this.

I bought 1946 recently and decided on that same day that this is when I am going to do things the way they should be done. So since I got 1946 I have been playing Full Real only. I start a mission by starting the engine, taking off and finish it by landing and shutting off the engine (if it's still there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif). No external views, nothing. And can I tell you this, this sim has come alive all over again for me. You guys may ask what is different? You still try to shoot planes down and dogfight and whatever, right. So what is different? I think a lot of the hidden qualities of this sim is coming out only when you play Full Real. The whole experience is just so much more rounded than playing on any other settings. I have been hooked all over again, although I am sometimes flying the same missions I used to on FB or PF. One of the things that I believe is part of my argument is that I feel as if I get to really see the differences in performance and characteristics of the different plane types. All of a sudden I actually try to find out what the differences are between my plane and the enemy's and how I should handle the plane to get the most out of it. In earlier days on semi-real it felt to me more like a thing of upping or downing speed, turning and shooting. And that's all. Not when I play Full Real. It's obviously a bit more difficult and maybe it is this bigger challenge that is hooking me.

I am not slamming anybody out there that is playing on easier settings. I am just saying, give it a go on Full Real and see whether you get the same sense of satisfaction that I do. It really is worth trying.
Cheers
Ex Semi-Realer

Bewolf
05-11-2007, 05:47 AM
Different moods, different settings. If am all relaxed and have the time I love full real. During the week I usually fly semi real like in UK2. Quicker action, still some feel of immersion.
And then there are those days I just have to go into a furball and vent. I think those ppl staying with one option only and see it as the holy grail really limit themselves. But to each their own.

Xiolablu3
05-11-2007, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
Different moods, different settings. If am all relaxed and have the time I love full real. During the week I usually fly semi real like in UK2. Quicker action, still some feel of immersion.
And then there are those days I just have to go into a furball and vent. I think those ppl staying with one option only and see it as the holy grail really limit themselves. But to each their own. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Feathered_IV
05-11-2007, 06:39 AM
For me the full-switch is the best by far. Even just navigating becomes a very satisfying challenge. For those who haven't really tried geting into it, I implore you to try before BoB comes out. ou really must experience the sim at it's full potential http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Rammjaeger
05-11-2007, 07:21 AM
I don't think that flying with icons turned off, for example, is "realistic". A monitor never offers the same visibility as a real cockpit, even with the most advanced graphics. I think that's clear.

I also don't see any reason to turn "No padlock" off so that I don't see my position on the map. Vectoring is not really a substitute since the Home Base usually, as I've found out, sends you in a totally wrong direction if you require "vector to target". For example, what's the point in flying ground attack mission if you can't find the target? In dynamic campaigns, the target is usually minuscule (one truck convoy, or some trucks scattered around a village).

The only time I played with "full real" settings was when I tried the SBD Guadalcanal campaign. That wasn't difficult since I was in a low rank so I only had to follow my unit to find the target and then our base.

carguy_
05-11-2007, 07:26 AM
For me trying to stay alive beats turning all difficulty sliders all the way on.

That way I get like a 1% of a real fear of death.Even that kicks ***.

Freelancer-1
05-11-2007, 07:43 AM
I fly full switch when I can. It makes a kill more satisfying, somehow.

The advantage to full switch online is that you can actually bounce someone or, if you have to run, you don't have this big neon sign announcing that you're sneaking away at 50 meters alt.

The advantage to, let's say, 'normal' settings is that you're not getting eyestrain trying to ID bogie's once you actually manage to find one. You're also not getting lost as much.

As their time in the sim increases, I think people naturally shift to playing with higher difficulty settings. If only because it keeps the game fresh and challenging.

TheCrux
05-11-2007, 07:47 AM
I basically echo Bewolf's sentiments. I was flying for a few years offline exclusively in a moderate-real setting mode ( icons/external views/no CEM, and occasional "wonder woman" view for close in deflection shooting ) in until a co-worker recently hooked me up with flying online with his group/server which flies full real in every way. Cold-turkey real. Quite a challenge. It wasn't quite that bad, but I found the biggest challenge was navigation ( which I seemed to pick up fairly well...with the help of some maps I printed ) and situational awareness: I tell ya, looking for little dots through the framed Ki-61 canopy against a green background...which could be friend or foe...all the while maintaining my speed, altitude and course ( even with a Track IR ) was, and still is very tough. I get done with a n hour of a patrol and I'm weary, stressed out and ready for a drink. Well, maybe laying it on a bit thick, but you get the idea.

I DO believe however, that the icons are not that egregious of an affront to full real, given the reasons others have noted. They would help even the odds and overcome difficulties inherent in a 2D cockpit with lack of relative body position ability.

I still get my arse handed to me on HL, but at least I know I've lost to the best.

EiZ0N
05-11-2007, 07:48 AM
I've played full real a few times.

I really enjoyed it, but it was a whole different experience really. I spent more time looking at the ground for landmarks than I did doing anything else.

It was fun, but it's not for all the time for me. A number of criticisms:

-Not having your aircraft on the map
-No 6dof so you can't see properly in the cockpit (wonder woman view spoils immersion for me but cockpit always on causes such profound difficulties in being able to see...)
-You can't spot dots very easily in the game, so icons should be on...
-Hard to identify friend or foe since you may not be in contact with friendlies and such.
-External views are fun

There's no idea server for me. I play in UK DED1 quite alot because of the wonderwoman view, but I really hate using that view, it's just out of neccessity.

UK2 has pretty good options. Semi-real, but with externals and icons.

hotspace
05-11-2007, 08:07 AM
I play almost 'Full Real' Offline ( I still hate Stalls & Spins as if you twitch you die or is that just me ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)........but when I host Online we alway's have kinda wimp settings including WW View sometimes:

Why?

A lot of the new guy's who just brought '46' seems to like those settings.

We're drunk most of the time.

We play for fun and we never try to be anything thing else (See the above).

We have wifes, girlfriends and little baby prefabrications that looks over you're shoulder and say's, 'Which one are you then?' placing their finger on the screen, 'Oh, you got killed; sorry about that!!!' 'You're not very good at this game, are you?' 'Could you put the washing out on the line, darling?', 'The dogs been sick on the carpet again!!!, or the imfamous:

'Fancy a night in? I'm wearing you're favourite again tonight...'

I can tell you that really puts you off flying 'Full Real' Online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yskonyn23
05-11-2007, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by HotSpace:
I play almost 'Full Real' Offline ( I still hate Stalls & Spins as if you twitch you die or is that just me ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)........but when I host Online we alway's have kinda wimp settings including WW View sometimes:

Why?

A lot of the new guy's who just brought '46' seems to like those settings.

We're drunk most of the time.

We play for fun and we never try to be anything thing else (See the above).

We have wifes, girlfriends and little baby prefabrications that looks over you're shoulder and say's, 'Which one are you then?' placing their finger on the screen, 'Oh, you got killed; sorry about that!!!' 'You're not very good at this game, are you?' 'Could you put the washing out on the line, darling?', 'The dogs been sick on the carpet again!!!, or the imfamous:

'Fancy a night in? I'm wearing you're favourite again tonight...'

I can tell you that really puts you off flying 'Full Real' Online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Philipscdrw
05-11-2007, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by EiZ0N:
I've played full real a few times.

I really enjoyed it, but it was a whole different experience really. I spent more time looking at the ground for landmarks than I did doing anything else.

It was fun, but it's not for all the time for me. A number of criticisms:

-Not having your aircraft on the map
-No 6dof so you can't see properly in the cockpit (wonder woman view spoils immersion for me but cockpit always on causes such profound difficulties in being able to see...)
-You can't spot dots very easily in the game, so icons should be on...
-Hard to identify friend or foe since you may not be in contact with friendlies and such.
-External views are fun

The first four things really are a matter of practise or preparation:
- navigation: print out a map, put it in a plastic envelope, and scrawl all over it with non-permanent marker pens. Or just note down the heading from BASE to TARGET and back again...
- Cockpits; a matter of practise really. The more you fly with cockpit on the less you notice it. TrackIR helps but isn't necessary - I used a 7-way hat switch (downleft was broken) for years with no problem.
- Dots: don't really know much about this issue to be honest.
- IFF: makes combat a lot more immersive IMO. Sneaking up on a 109 only to realise that those radiators really belong to a Spit, it's quite disappointing sometimes...
- External views ARE fun. I like to record fights and watch them again afterwards. Unfortunately that means I've got 250-odd ntrks recorded online which I have no way of identifying... if I were organised I'd keep a catalogue but that's a lot of hassle really.

Having said all that, Warclouds is my server of choice, which has partial icons (friendly pilotnames within 500m or so, enemy pilotnames within 50m I think), speedbar and Magic GPS Map enabled. SpitsVs109s is fullswitch but I like flying the Tempest too much...

Bearcat99
05-11-2007, 08:29 AM
Part of the beauty of this sim is that you can have it your way.. and with the diverse community and steady influx of new blood you can always find others that share your tastes, from the open pit arrow ridden nugget server to the die hard locked down white knuckle never saw what hit me servers.

To each his own. IMO the fully immersive settings definitely have their place... but when I fly online I prefer the tight icons (from .8f, .6e), speedbar, padlock and full CEM with externals that we use. Occasionally we will turn off icons and/or padlock, but IMO this sim is just too graphically stunning to turn off externals. We like to watch the action after we land/die/bail.

Offline I do it all on the fly depending on the mood..... if I donht want Icons I just toggle them off.... etc.

Full switch online gets down to personal preference anhd lets face it, hardware. For a guy with a great rig and all the perks from predals to TIR it can be great.. but fior the guy with the middle end video card.... a hat switch and 2 years under his belt on a 17" monitor.. it can be frustrating. If I had more time to fly online I think I would be more inclined to fly full.... but my time is limited.. and I cant stand taking my allotted hour or two and flying around for 90 minutes in two missions only to be bounced once and have limited contact and maybe snagging a bandit or two.

But that's me....

waffen-79
05-11-2007, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Full switch online gets down to personal preference anhd lets face it, hardware. For a guy with a great rig and all the perks from predals to TIR it can be great..

I agree with that, for instance, with me it's always almost "full real" except Externals are "ON", needless to say no TIR here.

UgoRipley
05-11-2007, 09:49 AM
Well, I had my first "full switch" online flight just few days ago, it was in Spits vs 109s.
At first I was totally lost, all this huge cockpit in front of me...I never took the time to study it before, and I didn't even know where the speed gauge was, or things like that.
The first air encounter was catastrofic (not for me though !) because I quite obviously shot down a friendly... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I usually fly "easy" settings HL servers, like Big Top, UKDed1, but I'm sarting feeling the "need" of something more serious and dedicated.
The most important immersion factor to me is that with full switches on you MUST change/adapt your flying techniques and skills, you MUST fly like if you were in a real airplane, and you just find yourself automatically doing things in a different way, like flying S turns to check your 6, or zig-zagging when taxiing on ground.

major_setback
05-11-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
Different moods, different settings. If am all relaxed and have the time I love full real. During the week I usually fly semi real like in UK2. Quicker action, still some feel of immersion.
And then there are those days I just have to go into a furball and vent. I think those ppl staying with one option only and see it as the holy grail really limit themselves. But to each their own. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Huxley_S
05-11-2007, 10:03 AM
One of the highlights of the game for me is navigation, using landmarks to find the way to and from the target.

xTHRUDx
05-11-2007, 10:54 AM
welcome to serious flight simming, Dogfighter1969. it all boils down to how you view this product. is it a game to you? or is it a sim to you?

Bewolf
05-11-2007, 11:01 AM
It's both. simple.

ShrikeHawk
05-11-2007, 11:19 AM
I definitely don't fly full-real. But I still leave things like stalls&spins and blackouts on (even if the AI is not subject to it). I also leave externals on even though I almost never pop out of the cockpit during combat. I'll only do it to gloat at my enemy as he comes apart in flame and smoke, hehehe. I don't use padlock at all because I've become proficient at changing views with the mouse and getting pretty good at locating my opponent after he passes.

The one thing I'm a bit embarassed about is turning off realistic gunnery and turning on unlimited ammo (I can hear the *snickers* now). I'm trying hard to improve my gunnery (a serious weakpoint for me). So I change one or both to a more realistic setting periodically to see how I'm doing. It's getting there. But so far, realistic gunnery is so frustrating it takes the fun out of it for me.

I occasionally try navigating home without the mini-map. It IS interesting to that. One time though, I got completely turned around in my P-40E and lined up to land at "an airbase". They started shooting. I assumed a bad guy had followed me home. So started hunting for him. After looking a long time with no luck, I buzzed the airbase to get a close look at it. Rising Sun flags, Betty sitting on the tarmac...oops! So I strafed the base and got 3 more aircraft on the ground, hehehe. Got away virtually unscathed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif, found my bearings, and made a safe landing at the "correct" airbase! hehehe.

Now THAT was FUN!

stalkervision
05-11-2007, 11:33 AM
don't think that flying with icons turned off, for example, is "realistic". A monitor never offers the same visibility as a real cockpit, even with the most advanced graphics. I think that's clear.

absolutely true! Until Maddox can figure out how to have "sun glint and engine exhaust effects" where one gets visual indications of other aircraft coming toward or away from you at long distince the icons stay!

Unfortunately.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

EiZ0N
05-11-2007, 11:39 AM
This all just makes me want to play.

I wish some of the players from UK1 would go to UK2, it never seems that busy to me, and I really fancy some cockpit on stuff.

xTHRUDx
05-11-2007, 11:57 AM
absolutely true! Until Maddox can figure out how to have "sun glint and engine exhaust effects" where one gets visual indications of other aircraft coming toward or away from you at long distince the icons stay!


being a real pilot myself, i've never seen giant text floating above other AC i observe in my real flying. So for me, it's an immersion killer.

Bearcat99
05-11-2007, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> absolutely true! Until Maddox can figure out how to have "sun glint and engine exhaust effects" where one gets visual indications of other aircraft coming toward or away from you at long distince the icons stay!


being a real pilot myself, i've never seen giant text floating above other AC i observe in my real flying. So for me, it's an immersion killer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

rnzoli
05-11-2007, 01:27 PM
oh ****, don't start these religious wars again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

everything is unrealistic, the question is always what can you tolerate more (e.g., the gigantic floating letters called icons, or the lack of depth sense on the flat monitor)

one thing is sure however, flying with full switches makes it much more difficult to navigate and to maintain situational awareness in combat - which was also very important for real pilots...

xTHRUDx
05-11-2007, 02:38 PM
one thing is sure however, flying with full switches makes it much more difficult to navigate and to maintain situational awareness in combat - which was also very important for real pilots...


that is also why hold real pilots with such respect.

Manu-6S
05-11-2007, 02:44 PM
Full difficulty rocks, except for the airspeed indicator since there is no 6dof and sometimes gauge are hidden.

Only in a full real server you can use REAL tactics because the magic F6 can't save you.

BadA1m
05-11-2007, 02:57 PM
My religious affiliation has nothing whatsoever to do with flightsims, so I won't pontificate, but full-switch does roxxors and all you F6 aces are Girly men! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif ( I'm kidding, I'm just kidding http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif)

For those who have trouble with dots, you really have to knock your resolution back to 1024x768 to get maximum visual distance.

For those who are real WWII/history/aviation nuts, you are really missing out if you don't try full switch. It's the only way to experience a lot of the things you've read about (like being in a furious furball one minute and being alone the next or getting lost and nearly landing at an enemy field)

For every one else; have fun, there is room for all

Jaws2002
05-11-2007, 03:23 PM
In my few good years in this game i think i flew under all possible settings. (I remember bouncing off the ground back during IL-2 demo and not knowing what the heck just happened. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

With time i switched to harder settings and i don't feel like flying open pit anymore. i can't stand the arrows and to be honest i don't think i would survive long enough in open pit this days. Since i bought TrackIR i have a hard time flying open pit. I get disoriented without the cockpit frames and i also can't maneuver very effective because i have little idea witch way my plane is pointing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Externals don't bother me that much except the F6. that allows people to stay perfectly safe in combat area without ever having to look around. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I'd go as far as to say that this is the most annoying difficulty setting that can't be turned off unless you close the externals.

But lately I fly mostly full real.
There are few things people can do when they want to switch to full real to greatly improve their fun in harder settings.
- Think before what planes you want to fly and study their cockpits a little before you have to fight for your life in them. Check where the main gauges are and where the blind spots are.
Take a little time to study the enemy planes you are likely to encounter. Load a QMB offline with all planes you may run into and pause the game. look at all of them from different angles and ranges, and try to identify them without icons. Look at the shape of the wings, type of engine, radiators and even markings.
During ww2 pilots did aircraft recognition training in the flight school. They had problems too. There were incidents where P-47 pilots opened fire on p-51's thinking are 109's. It happens online too. We all did it.The more you play with them and have to identify them the better you'll be at this.
- Before you take off read the brief and find out where your targets are. Estimate the heading from the base to the target and back. Look for landmarks on the map. you can find targets and your way around easier this way.
- You may get tired from flying full real long time if you are not used to it. Take it one step at the time. The main idea is to be fun. If you feel your eyes burning from too much looking for small dots take a break, then come back to it later.

MrMojok
05-11-2007, 07:10 PM
One thing I have never understood... in the difficulty menu there is a setting for 'no externals' and 'no padlock'. On an online server, can't they just disable the padlock and leave externals on? Some clown could still hit external view and look around for threats, but he won't have as easy a time of it as he will when he can just sit there hitting F6 constantly.

Or am I completely misunderstanding this?

BaldieJr
05-11-2007, 07:23 PM
If you really want to alter the immersion, just concentrate on this single thought:

I play full naked all the time.

Divine-Wind
05-11-2007, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> absolutely true! Until Maddox can figure out how to have "sun glint and engine exhaust effects" where one gets visual indications of other aircraft coming toward or away from you at long distince the icons stay!


being a real pilot myself, i've never seen giant text floating above other AC i observe in my real flying. So for me, it's an immersion killer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif


Originally posted by BaldieJr:
If you really want to alter the immersion, just concentrate on this single thought:

I play full naked all the time.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


Originally posted by ShrikeHawk:
I definitely don't fly full-real. But I still leave things like stalls&spins and blackouts on (even if the AI is not subject to it). I also leave externals on even though I almost never pop out of the cockpit during combat. I'll only do it to gloat at my enemy as he comes apart in flame and smoke, hehehe. I don't use padlock at all because I've become proficient at changing views with the mouse and getting pretty good at locating my opponent after he passes.

The one thing I'm a bit embarassed about is turning off realistic gunnery and turning on unlimited ammo (I can hear the *snickers* now). I'm trying hard to improve my gunnery (a serious weakpoint for me). So I change one or both to a more realistic setting periodically to see how I'm doing. It's getting there. But so far, realistic gunnery is so frustrating it takes the fun out of it for me.

I occasionally try navigating home without the mini-map. It IS interesting to that. One time though, I got completely turned around in my P-40E and lined up to land at "an airbase". They started shooting. I assumed a bad guy had followed me home. So started hunting for him. After looking a long time with no luck, I buzzed the airbase to get a close look at it. Rising Sun flags, Betty sitting on the tarmac...oops! So I strafed the base and got 3 more aircraft on the ground, hehehe. Got away virtually unscathed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif, found my bearings, and made a safe landing at the "correct" airbase! hehehe.

Now THAT was FUN!
Yeah, gunnery is probably the biggest problem faced by most virtual (And real) fighter pilots. All I can say is, practice, practice, practice. Get to know the general aircraft weakspots, such as wingroots and the engine(s), get your firing bursts down, and getting in close. The last one is a big one for me.

stoopidlimey
05-11-2007, 08:57 PM
It is not FULL REAL,it's full difficulty settings. In which, the guy with the best monitor, Machine, Track IR, controls trim on slider, etc....is the winner. How can it be full real when you don't have separate throttle controls for multi-engined planes? Why oh Why keep beating a dead horse? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

Xiolablu3
05-11-2007, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by EiZ0N:
This all just makes me want to play.

I wish some of the players from UK1 would go to UK2, it never seems that busy to me, and I really fancy some cockpit on stuff.

Must be bad luck that you are out of hte UK timezone, mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

In the afternoons and evenings Greenwich mean-time its usually full. (At least it was a month or so ago before I reformatted) Also at weekends, but that time tends to atttract a few idiots ('weekend syndrome')

Try and fly at UK social times if you want a full server.

I used to play all night, once I reinstall IL2 I will look out for you and we can wing up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
05-11-2007, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
One thing I have never understood... in the difficulty menu there is a setting for 'no externals' and 'no padlock'. On an online server, can't they just disable the padlock and leave externals on? Some clown could still hit external view and look around for threats, but he won't have as easy a time of it as he will when he can just sit there hitting F6 constantly.

Or am I completely misunderstanding this?

It doesnt work for online servers.

If you have externals on you MUST have padlock on too.

Its been raised numerous times in ORR, but it looks like its hard coded into the engine, or at least very hard to change, otherwise Oleg would have done it by now.

I am sure for SOW:BOB he will think about htis from the start to make sure you can have extrnals and no padlock.

I think most people agree, externals with no padlock would be the ideal settings, and the padlock is what puts a lot of people off externals flying.

I just learned to live with it. Its like 'Ok I will scan the sky for enemys now 'press F6'. I know you see places which you wouldnt in real life, but its just one of those things. It leads to quite a relaxing game tbh, and lots of action because people find the enemy very quickly.

It makes it more of a 'game', but that 'game' is still fun IMO.

Good for practising dogfighting, not so good for B&Z, but I still get by in my FW190A6 on externals servers, and get my fair share of kills, so its not impossible.

tagTaken2
05-11-2007, 09:04 PM
Each to their own, but with the il-2 engine limitations, flying with fullswitch isn't closer to real life, it's just increasing the difficulty level of the game.

No 6dof?
Can't find a miniscule dot?
Can't tell one village from the next?
Rolling engine controls back and forth to little effect?
Opponent doing maneuvers that would kill a human pilot?

I flew full-switch (offline) for a few months, and enjoyed it for the immersion, but ultimately it occurred to me that life was too short, and spare time little.

The Storm of War series (please, please, Korea!) should be a different story.

MrMojok
05-11-2007, 09:36 PM
OK Xio, thanks for explaining it.

I guess I should either start flying no-external servers or re-map F6 myself (I mapped F6 to another function a long time ago).

Xiolablu3
05-11-2007, 09:46 PM
Yeah man, be sure to use F6, everyone else does and you will be at a big disadvantage if you dont.

Its like flying cockpit on on a WW server, it just makes things much harder when everyone has cockpit off and you have it on.

I always use the easiest settings the server has. As long as veeryone is using it then its a level playing field.

If I want to play full real I will go to a full real server, not complian about people using F6 on a a externals server, which seems a bit daft to me.

Like I said before, I still think it creates a really enjoyable action packed game, so its not all bad by any means http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Also its much easier to find ground targets when you are bombing rather than circling down low for 10 minutes tring to pick out the last truck which is left to win the map, and leaving yourself as an easy target for some guy in a fighter who has never flown a bomber or helped the team in his life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

PFflyer
05-11-2007, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by stoopidlimey:
It is not FULL REAL,it's full difficulty settings. In which, the guy with the best monitor, Machine, Track IR, controls trim on slider, etc....is the winner. How can it be full real when you don't have separate throttle controls for multi-engined planes? Why oh Why keep beating a dead horse? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

You are a stoopidlimey for sure. You CAN control the throttles seperately on a multi engine plane in this sim. All you have to do is read the directions and pull your head out of your a ss. You can assign each engine a separate key in your controls and select each one and alter it's mixture, prop pitch, throttle or anything else you want.

Davinci..
05-11-2007, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by stoopidlimey:
It is not FULL REAL,it's full difficulty settings. In which, the guy with the best monitor, Machine, Track IR, controls trim on slider, etc....is the winner.

This is a little ridiculous.

I have a 2500+ barton, an old 6600gt video card, and a cheap 19in monitor with NO "TIR". I defy anyone to suggest I(or anyone else) cant be good because of that. I have no problem flying against people with all those bells and whistles at thier disposal, and they sure havent stopped me from shooting them down. Feel free to hop on the Winds of War server if you need a demonstration. I've never felt I couldnt "hang" with anyone because of my dinky little system, and im sure the people that have flown with and against me would agree..

PFflyer
05-11-2007, 09:58 PM
On full-real:

It is the ultimate way to use this sim. Where the sim pilot becomes and artist and what he does is art.

Mod edit:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

gkll
05-11-2007, 10:18 PM
Im happy to see full switch is now entrenched in our language. And no real squabbles, but lots of thoughtful posts.... hope for the old forum yet.

EDIT<Theres irony for you, or timing.... look at the post just above ha ha>

Ive never liked the feel of WW so never use it... but my squad loves 334th style so thats what we do, in that environment to limit padlock makes in-pit flying next to impossible against the all seeing WW folks... so there is in fact use for the padlock, it lets the inpit flyers compete...

Best would be a switch to shut off external padlock, while allowing inpit padlock, and the ability to set the distance the padlock is effective at. Get some close-to-full-switch servers enabling padlock perhaps....

stalkervision
05-11-2007, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> absolutely true! Until Maddox can figure out how to have "sun glint and engine exhaust effects" where one gets visual indications of other aircraft coming toward or away from you at long distince the icons stay!


being a real pilot myself, i've never seen giant text floating above other AC i observe in my real flying. So for me, it's an immersion killer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


He's quite a comedian isn't he! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Feathered_IV
05-12-2007, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
I don't think that flying with icons turned off, for example, is "realistic". A monitor never offers the same visibility as a real cockpit, even with the most advanced graphics. I think that's clear.


The thing is, in the online environment, if every single player is labouring under the same difficulty with regards to view from cockpit and navigation etc. then the argument that you are at a disadvantage is irrelevant.

I don't want to cramp anyone's style, (although PFflyer's post made me spit a mouthful of wine over the keyboard) but flying with all the boxes ticked has been where I get the most satisfaction, not to mention the most toe-curlingly memorable moments out of this sim. I don't want to belittle anyone. I just want to spread the good news.

willyvic
05-12-2007, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
I don't think that flying with icons turned off, for example, is "realistic". A monitor never offers the same visibility as a real cockpit, even with the most advanced graphics. I think that's clear.


The thing is, in the online environment, if every single player is labouring under the same difficulty with regards to view from cockpit and navigation etc. then the argument that you are at a disadvantage is irrelevant... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that Pit On is the only way to fly (for me). However, I also utilize a TIR and find that piece of equipment invaluable during encounters. Being able to turn my head to keep track of the bandits is a distinct advantage.

WC and ZvsW are the servers I haunt. WC for the comraderie (sp?) and limited icons when training with the boys. ZvsW for the full monty.

And it IS all about personal preference. Everyone should enjoy the game any way they desire.

WV

Tailbutcher
05-12-2007, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by PFflyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stoopidlimey:
It is not FULL REAL,it's full difficulty settings. In which, the guy with the best monitor, Machine, Track IR, controls trim on slider, etc....is the winner. How can it be full real when you don't have separate throttle controls for multi-engined planes? Why oh Why keep beating a dead horse? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

You are a stoopidlimey for sure. You CAN control the throttles seperately on a multi engine plane in this sim. All you have to do is read the directions and pull your head out of your a ss. You can assign each engine a separate key in your controls and select each one and alter it's mixture, prop pitch, throttle or anything else you want. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I think the Limey was refering to, is have two separete throttle controls in use at the same time. Like using the CH throttle Quadrant. So, do you like insulting people that make a valid point, or are you that narrow minded?

http://www.chproducts.com/retail/t_tq_quad.html

DooDaH2007
05-12-2007, 09:12 AM
Warclouds does it for me...
Closeby icons and map icon for player aircraft...

Jaws2002
05-12-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by PFflyer:
On full-real:

It is the ultimate way to use this sim. Where the sim pilot becomes and artist and what he does is art.

Those who argue how easier settings are better, just are not smart enough or good enough to hack it, so they have to make excuses to protect their girlie egos.

Full real is for men only, sorry.

If you cannot appreciate or hack it on a full real server or coop, then you are a panzy, a girlie man, and a dumb a ss.

I think you deserve the title "Hillbilly of the month" for that post.

You completely miss the point. This bloody IL-2 is a game and was made for entertainment. If full switch is how you like to fly that is what is fun for you. If someone likes to fly with easy settings is his fun and since you didn't pay his copy of the game you have absolutely no right to tell him how to have fun and definitely have no right to call him Panzy or girly or dumb a$$. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Do you realize that are people that don't have your eagle eye sight? Or don't have it anymore and need the icons to find the enemy or friendly plane?

I fly 90% hard settings with the rest 10 being Coops and UK-ded2 (with externals and sometimes icons in this case)

I fly those because i like either the missions or to fly with the people in there.
If i want to fly with friends i couldn't care less about settings. To me this is a game not a pissing contest and i like to have fun with my friends in the first place.

With all your full real experience and arogance i bet there are lots of players that fly easier settings then you that would wipe the floor with you in any settings in this "game".

Let me give you a bit of infornation. The only WW2 veteran fighter pilot that plays this game, Monroe Q. Williams, a P-47 and P-51 pilot from 353'rd FG, with one confirmed BF-109 destroyed and hundreds of hours flying in enemy teritory, is flying open pit too.
What makes you, a big mouth Internet punk, better then him, or anybody else for that matter? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Because that post of yours i think the mods should give you a long vacation. We can do without bullies in here.

K_Freddie
05-12-2007, 11:06 AM
Been flying IL2 for some 5 years now, 3-4 years have always been of 'Full Tilt'. And as PFflyer says - this is for real men http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

It's not as hard as the rest but probably much easier, as 'they' cannot see you so easily now, and visa versa. What it really emphasises is teamwork and tactics, just they way it is in RL - so yes, it is the next best thing.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Targ
05-12-2007, 01:30 PM
Always been a full switch flier myself but to each his own and fly what you enjoy most as this is a game for entertainment.
Lets keep the chest puffing to a minimum in this thread and behave like adults http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Manu-6S
05-12-2007, 01:38 PM
Full switch server can be all but relaxing... "paranoia" is your wingman scanning the sky for contacts, above all if you are, like me, a gamer that want to avoid KIA.

Obviously if you want nothing but fun go with external and WW, but only with full-difficulty you can simulate more accuratly tactics and emotions of a pilot.

BSS_Sniper
05-12-2007, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
I don't think that flying with icons turned off, for example, is "realistic". A monitor never offers the same visibility as a real cockpit, even with the most advanced graphics. I think that's clear.

I also don't see any reason to turn "No padlock" off so that I don't see my position on the map. Vectoring is not really a substitute since the Home Base usually, as I've found out, sends you in a totally wrong direction if you require "vector to target". For example, what's the point in flying ground attack mission if you can't find the target? In dynamic campaigns, the target is usually minuscule (one truck convoy, or some trucks scattered around a village).

The only time I played with "full real" settings was when I tried the SBD Guadalcanal campaign. That wasn't difficult since I was in a low rank so I only had to follow my unit to find the target and then our base.

Even with icons off in game, it is A LOT easier to see aircraft in here than it is in real life. You'll always see a black dot that never blends in with anything except the ground, when you're close to it as well.

I'm not really sure how you can say padlock is realistic. But to each his own, if thats what you wamt.

Von_Ron
05-13-2007, 03:18 AM
Ahh, the age old debate of game settings ..some things never change http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

I use any settings and servers as long as the lag is at minimum so as not to spoil the game.

I see that the DIFFICULT or EASY settings in this game are a matter of personal choice, you are all free to choose the game you wish to play.

Using difficult settings on a regular basis may imply that such a user should be able to enter a server with EASY settings and own it, but I have never seen this ?.

Cockpit ON and Cockpit OFF each have their own required skills, if by playing more difficult settings this makes you better than some who chooses to use easy settings, then I say Prove it ?????

thefruitbat
05-13-2007, 11:18 AM
Online, full switch is great, offline its dumb.

1) without padlock, u cannot communicate properly with your flight. It is satisfying flying high above a formation of enemy bombers, when u have already run out of ammo, and pick the individual bombers out with padlock, and get your wing to attack them. Very helpfull for prioritising which type targets your wing attacks first, be it ground or air.

2) No instant succsess is one of the biggest immersion killers of the game for me. No one single other thing more turns this into a game with levels. Fact is real pilots didnt alwasys succeed in their mission goals, coming back alive was generally considered success by the majorety of pilots.

anyway, just my opinion.

cheers fruitbat

TheGozr
05-13-2007, 12:45 PM
Actually i really want to say that tags exist in the real world here a prouf!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.arnoldaerial.com/images/foother.jpg

SO now the question is are you flying with tags to actually advertize something? If not i recommend for you to get use to it, spend a bit of time full or almost full switch on and not be that leasy pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ...
OK and yes actually having a lower system can actually be in your advantage. So please no more small screen, slow card etc.. It's just so wrong!.

Just spend some time on it give it a good try and have fun .. Now my personal opinion is that Tags are for newer pilots. But like it has been said before the beauty of it is that there are settings for all... We need targets anyway! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Henkie327
05-13-2007, 12:47 PM
The only thing that full real settings do is that they make it harder to see things. That means that you must put in more work to get your (visual) information that you need to fly/navigate and fight. But that doesn't nescessarily mean also more realistic.

For example reading dials/gauges. On some planes you can't even see the compass or slipball. They are obscured or simply not visible. In that case, playing full real is still possible ofcourse, but then it's just playing to make it more (unnescessarily?) difficult.

And in some planes, the cockpit bar is just about all you see. Too much emphasis on admiring the beautiful cockpits struts imo in this game. The already limited incockpit view we have on our monitor (very limited field of view) is often taken up by cockpitstruts. What's up with that?

But really strange is that no cockpit is the opposite extreme. There is simply no middle way in this game. Pity http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

LStarosta
05-13-2007, 12:57 PM
I don't know how many of you are real pilots, but have you ever tried scanning for traffic even when the controller gives you the exact altitude, clock-reference direction, and the direction the plane is going in? I have 20/13 vision, and I find it really hard sometimes.

xTHRUDx
05-13-2007, 12:58 PM
i stand corrected, Gozr. you're right there are icons on planes in the real world. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TheGozr
05-13-2007, 01:01 PM
Well interesting it is true that with no 6 dof it's very hard to really fly like real. In many planes the gauges are very hard to see or impossible so that why many servers have actually the speed bar on for example but now concerning the view or sight while in an real aircraft while flying around an other doing some dogfight it would be very difficult to locate your target. The pilots move his head in all directions and body actually. So in a real fight it is very hard to follow your opponent much harder than in the sim. There are also much other factors that enter in the play.

In the sim to me you don't feel the plane weight that you can feel in RL stick forces, G forces,. etc.. It's almost if we all fly acrobatic paper made aircrafts that you can wank around with no end to be able to see targets or like a dancing Fw-190 ready to be shotdown etc..
( it is almost if the main model was a SU-30 ) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

willyvic
05-13-2007, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
I don't know how many of you are real pilots, but have you ever tried scanning for traffic even when the controller gives you the exact altitude, clock-reference direction, and the direction the plane is going in? I have 20/13 vision, and I find it really hard sometimes.

And for the most part they're not camoflauged either! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I've missed 707's when I "knew" where they were supposed to be.

WV

TheGozr
05-13-2007, 01:13 PM
Very true..

rnzoli
05-13-2007, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
I don't know how many of you are real pilots, but have you ever tried scanning for traffic even when the controller gives you the exact altitude, clock-reference direction, and the direction the plane is going in? I have 20/13 vision, and I find it really hard sometimes.

And for the most part they're not camoflauged either! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I've missed 707's when I "knew" where they were supposed to be.

WV </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree, although the good thing is that in RL, 707s never become a "pixel vapor" when they change from a dot to the most distant LOD http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-13-2007, 04:43 PM
I don't think that flying with icons turned off, for example, is "realistic". A monitor never offers the same visibility as a real cockpit, even with the most advanced graphics. I think that's clear.

Disagree 100%

Freelancer-1
05-13-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
I don't know how many of you are real pilots, but have you ever tried scanning for traffic even when the controller gives you the exact altitude, clock-reference direction, and the direction the plane is going in? I have 20/13 vision, and I find it really hard sometimes.



And for the most part they're not camoflauged either! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I've missed 707's when I "knew" where they were supposed to be.

WV </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best leave the flying to someone else, then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
05-13-2007, 05:48 PM
Theproblem with the easier settings, especially the big red and blue arrows, is that its so simple just to point your aircraft at the arrow and keep turning, meaingf that aircraft performance is much moore important on the more arcade servers than the more realistic ones.

Even in padlock servers, you can only quickly padlock and then you have to go back to the cockpit to fly the plane. So its still very dependant on how quick the pilot is and how often he checks around him.

The arrows, on the other hand, make it far far too easy just to keep turning and following the biggest arrow. It also leads to far too many headons, where both pilots pick the biggest arrow to them and head straight for it.

Not knocking people who fly with these big arrows and icons, but thats just a step too far in the arcade game stakes for me. Theres not much difference between Crimson skies or Heroes of the Pacific and IL2 in No Cockpit and all icons on.

I like cockpit always on settings, and will fly with either externals on or off, I dont mind. I do find externals on more fun tho, it leads to lots of action, yet is still feels quite realistic when the planes meet.

zoomar
05-13-2007, 05:57 PM
I have played all variants offline, but tend to prefer semi realistic settings both online and offline for the following reasons:

(1) "Full realistic" is a misnomer, especially if you lack TrakIR. Also, on line gamers with TIR have a tremendous advantages in full switch mode over those who are trying to fly with just a hat switch. It is unrealistically confining. I have sat in the cockpit of a Bf109 and P-51 and am convinced visisbility from a "real" plane is much better than from the computer versions.
(2) I like the eye candy too much. Half of the reason I like the Il2 family of sims so much is the graphics. If all the pits looked like the J8A or Mc200-202-205 series, I might not mind so much, but most of the pits are too cartoonish to stare at for a half hour without losing any sense of immersion. Switching between the gorgeous outside views and inside views held control boredom on long missions. Sure "real" pilots can't do this, but in case anybody hasn't noticed this is a game.

willyvic
05-13-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by willyvic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
I don't know how many of you are real pilots, but have you ever tried scanning for traffic even when the controller gives you the exact altitude, clock-reference direction, and the direction the plane is going in? I have 20/13 vision, and I find it really hard sometimes.



And for the most part they're not camoflauged either! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I've missed 707's when I "knew" where they were supposed to be.

WV </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best leave the flying to someone else, then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoken like a true ground pounder... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

MrMojok
05-13-2007, 06:47 PM
Difficulty-wise or realism-wise any way they want to take it will be interesting, I am sure. But scalability is essential.

The more people this appeals to, the better. And that means there must be some kind of way to switch on the aids like we have now. There can still be online servers for the newer people to use like there are now, where they can do cockpit-off and arrows or whatever they want, and we will continue to fly at the more realistic servers.

But to completely shut out the bulk of the gaming populace due to the difficulty and realism would be a mistake, and I am sure 1C know that.

leitmotiv
05-13-2007, 06:56 PM
To me it has always been the spirit of the thing. The minute you are using icons you are gaming the system. We all know this sim can never truly duplicate WWII flying, but the idea is to "play the game." I was reading about another sim which uses 6 DOF, which forces you learn to center your head behind your sight like a real pilot. Some guy figured out a way to game the system by disengaging 6 DOF behind the gunsight so he didn't have to learn how to center his head. Clever boy. With any game, there will always be people who learn to play it as best they can, and those who "game the system" or just simply cheat. I think the best guide is always to try to stay in the spirit of the thing.

Henkie327
05-14-2007, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Theproblem with the easier settings, especially the big red and blue arrows, is that its so simple just to point your aircraft at the arrow and keep turning, meaingf that aircraft performance is much moore important on the more arcade servers than the more realistic ones.



I don't see the problem with the arrows. So what if it's easy? It is supposed to be easy. The arrows simulate peripheral vision. Where else can the simpilot get peripheral vision? They should have made the arrows with the cockpit ON views, not just the no cockpit views.

It simulates that the fighter pilot quickly spotted the nearest threat (biggest arrow) and ofcourse he's maneuvering to get in a good position.

The headons maybe are the result of players only looking at forward cockpit view. I guess they switch from outside padlock to inside forward view because that's the easiest way to do it. For those people the arrows are great as well.

Because what is easy in real life (looking around) is not always as easy for the computer pilot who must use the hatswitch or keyboard to look around.

And even if we have a TIR, then we still lack the peripheral vision. The most field of view you can get is 90 degrees field of view. That's incredibly small for any pilot, let alone a fighter pilot.

The arrows are good to simulate peripheral vision and should be available also in the cockpit ON views as peripheral vision arrows.

-HH-Quazi
05-14-2007, 03:44 AM
All I know is that my virtual life tends to last a little longer in full switch servers. Shoot, I even make it back to base from time to time after a successful bomb run. HEHE

Rammjaeger
05-14-2007, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Online, full switch is great, offline its dumb.


My point exactly as well (I was talking about offline settings).

Even a monitor with the most advanced graphics cannot offer the same visibility as the human eye in real life. Moreover, in IL-2 you cannot properly move your head around in the cockpit. That's why I believe that flying offline with no icons is not realistic.

The reason I said that flying without padlock is unrealistic is because in my experience, home base vectoring you to the target is unreliable (it sends you in a wrong direction).

LStarosta
05-14-2007, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by Henkie327:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Theproblem with the easier settings, especially the big red and blue arrows, is that its so simple just to point your aircraft at the arrow and keep turning, meaingf that aircraft performance is much moore important on the more arcade servers than the more realistic ones.



I don't see the problem with the arrows. So what if it's easy? It is supposed to be easy. The arrows simulate peripheral vision. Where else can the simpilot get peripheral vision? They should have made the arrows with the cockpit ON views, not just the no cockpit views.

It simulates that the fighter pilot quickly spotted the nearest threat (biggest arrow) and ofcourse he's maneuvering to get in a good position.

The headons maybe are the result of players only looking at forward cockpit view. I guess they switch from outside padlock to inside forward view because that's the easiest way to do it. For those people the arrows are great as well.

Because what is easy in real life (looking around) is not always as easy for the computer pilot who must use the hatswitch or keyboard to look around.

And even if we have a TIR, then we still lack the peripheral vision. The most field of view you can get is 90 degrees field of view. That's incredibly small for any pilot, let alone a fighter pilot.

The arrows are good to simulate peripheral vision and should be available also in the cockpit ON views as peripheral vision arrows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are wrong. You have no clue how hard it is to keep a maneuvering target in your sight at all times.

Peripheral vision? No. You don't spot aircraft ten miles away with a faint arrow using peripheral vision.

No, no, no. Arrows are purely arcade and completely unrealistic. If you like to play with them, great. But the way these arrows give away the position of airplanes that you aren't even aware of on your own completely kills any type of realistic SA compensation arrows could provide.

DKoor
05-14-2007, 07:29 AM
FR (and alike) FTW

Dogfighter1969
05-14-2007, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
welcome to serious flight simming, Dogfighter1969. it all boils down to how you view this product. is it a game to you? or is it a sim to you?

Apologies for answering only now. Have been away a few days.
In answer to your question, it is more of a sim to me. I try to experience what the pilots in those days actually experienced, although it is limited to a pc experience. To give you an idea of what I mean, I downloaded Desert Airforce from M4T. You fly Gladiators to start off with and come up against Italian Bredas, etc. What I like is that I can 'feel' the difference in handling the Gladiator vs my old favourite, the 109. My respect for the pilots that flew in those days grow by the day. I believe that those pilots had a real effort in just overcoming the difficulties in actually flying their planes, what more to say about having to do so in combat!!
Coming back to your question, I am the kind of guy that likes a sim like MS Flight Sim 2004, but I need to be able to do combat too. Can't just fly around without seeing some action as well. That is where IL-2 and Falcon : Allied Force comes in handy for me.

Dogfighter1969
05-14-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
oh ****, don't start these religious wars again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
.

I know you don't mean it in a bad way. But it just made me realise that maybe I didn't make it clear in my discussion as to what my thinking was behind starting it in the first place. So let me try to clarify it.

First of all I am the last person to try and bore everybody with how they should be 'flying'. As someone else put it, just have fun, in any which way you want to.
But I was actually trying to say to other guys, that are flying the way I used to, to just go and try Full Real. I used to not even bother trying it. Now I enjoy it tremendously. Try it, if you like it, stick to it, if not go and play as you used to. Nothing to loose by trying. But I used to think it would be too difficult and therefore I never bothered to try it, until now.

Whichever way you want to fly is up to you. This sim can cater for all of us (also as someone else stated).

I am a bit behind on reading through the posts. Will maybe comment on other's too as I go through it later tonight or tomorrow. Meanwhile, thanks for the posts. It's always nice to hear you guys' (and girls'?) opinions in a matured and civilsed way.

Cheers for now.

Henkie327
05-14-2007, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
You are wrong. You have no clue how hard it is to keep a maneuvering target in your sight at all times.

Peripheral vision? No. You don't spot aircraft ten miles away with a faint arrow using peripheral vision.

No, no, no. Arrows are purely arcade and completely unrealistic. If you like to play with them, great. But the way these arrows give away the position of airplanes that you aren't even aware of on your own completely kills any type of realistic SA compensation arrows could provide.

What is hard for some could be easier for others.

Sure you don't spot aircraft 10 miles away with a faint arrow, but I could name other features of the game that are just as unrealistic.

The way that we look around in the game is totally unrealistic. The inability to read the compass gauge or see the slip ball on some planes. The limited field of view, the ability to zoom in and out etc. etc. I could go on and on.

Point is that it can not be avoided that this game must use compromises to simulate things. And that's what the arrows (among other things) are about. They are simply a compromise.

And I could not care less if the arrows are considered arcade or not. Because in the end whether you are playing full real or not, you are still only pushing around pixels.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
05-14-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Theproblem with the easier settings, especially the big red and blue arrows, is that its so simple just to point your aircraft at the arrow and keep turning, meaingf that aircraft performance is much moore important on the more arcade servers than the more realistic ones.

Even in padlock servers, you can only quickly padlock and then you have to go back to the cockpit to fly the plane. So its still very dependant on how quick the pilot is and how often he checks around him.

The arrows, on the other hand, make it far far too easy just to keep turning and following the biggest arrow. It also leads to far too many headons, where both pilots pick the biggest arrow to them and head straight for it.

Not knocking people who fly with these big arrows and icons, but thats just a step too far in the arcade game stakes for me. Theres not much difference between Crimson skies or Heroes of the Pacific and IL2 in No Cockpit and all icons on.

I like cockpit always on settings, and will fly with either externals on or off, I dont mind. I do find externals on more fun tho, it leads to lots of action, yet is still feels quite realistic when the planes meet.

I agree... I hate the arrows... padlock... I use it if it is available... but I don't have to have it... icons I prefer.. very tight.. but again I can live without them.... externals? IMO the sim is just too sweet to do without them.... especially in coops.. in a DF server though, where you can respawn right away.... I adjust when I am sipping that cup of tea.

sunflower1
05-14-2007, 03:49 PM
"Let me give you a bit of infornation. The only WW2 veteran fighter pilot that plays this game, Monroe Q. Williams, a P-47 and P-51 pilot from 353'rd FG, with one confirmed BF-109 destroyed and hundreds of hours flying in enemy teritory, is flying open pit too"

Not correct.

TheGozr
05-14-2007, 04:08 PM
What about much younger ww2 plane pilots that can see well still with their eyes and understand the concept of a computer and more important a simulation with all the goodies that are with it.. How many? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think they fly pit ON and all ON, this is very easy to understand imo./
But the simulator have different settings for each of the members and their abilities.

BSS_Sniper
05-14-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
I don't know how many of you are real pilots, but have you ever tried scanning for traffic even when the controller gives you the exact altitude, clock-reference direction, and the direction the plane is going in? I have 20/13 vision, and I find it really hard sometimes.

Thats exactly what I was talking about! I have 20/20 and ATC will give me a distance and clock direction and I have to really look hard to find it. In IL2 you can just look for the dots and it is pretty simple to find them.

BSS_Sniper
05-14-2007, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Henkie327:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Theproblem with the easier settings, especially the big red and blue arrows, is that its so simple just to point your aircraft at the arrow and keep turning, meaingf that aircraft performance is much moore important on the more arcade servers than the more realistic ones.



I don't see the problem with the arrows. So what if it's easy? It is supposed to be easy. The arrows simulate peripheral vision. Where else can the simpilot get peripheral vision? They should have made the arrows with the cockpit ON views, not just the no cockpit views.

It simulates that the fighter pilot quickly spotted the nearest threat (biggest arrow) and ofcourse he's maneuvering to get in a good position.

The headons maybe are the result of players only looking at forward cockpit view. I guess they switch from outside padlock to inside forward view because that's the easiest way to do it. For those people the arrows are great as well.

Because what is easy in real life (looking around) is not always as easy for the computer pilot who must use the hatswitch or keyboard to look around.

And even if we have a TIR, then we still lack the peripheral vision. The most field of view you can get is 90 degrees field of view. That's incredibly small for any pilot, let alone a fighter pilot.

The arrows are good to simulate peripheral vision and should be available also in the cockpit ON views as peripheral vision arrows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you're talking about the super vision of someone on the fantastic four superhero team, not real life humans! lmao You can't be serious?

ShrikeHawk
05-14-2007, 05:56 PM
I don't even know what these arrows are that you guys are talking about. I've never seen them. But it sounds like I'm not missing anything. CFS2 has this "enemy indicator" that points to the closest enemy. I turned it off and soon as I figured out how to. Just because somebody is closer doesn't mean they are the greatest threat! I thought that indicator was deceptive.

I like having externals. I don't use them during combat or at least when I am actively engaged. I'm too busy chasing the enemy to think about popping out for a look. I just like externals so I can view my aircraft against the scenery. I just totally love looking for a great new screenshot of 'me' in my (current airplane). That's just part of the fun for me.

BSS_Sniper
05-14-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by ShrikeHawk:
I don't even know what these arrows are that you guys are talking about. I've never seen them. But it sounds like I'm not missing anything. CFS2 has this "enemy indicator" that points to the closest enemy. I turned it off and soon as I figured out how to. Just because somebody is closer doesn't mean they are the greatest threat! I thought that indicator was deceptive.

I like having externals. I don't use them during combat or at least when I am actively engaged. I'm too busy chasing the enemy to think about popping out for a look. I just like externals so I can view my aircraft against the scenery. I just totally love looking for a great new screenshot of 'me' in my (current airplane). That's just part of the fun for me.

I think thats fun and that there is nothing wrong with that. There is, however, one problem. People can cycle through the other teams outside views and get an idea of where they are. That is the only thing I don't like about having outside views on during online competitive play.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-14-2007, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by sunflower1:
"Let me give you a bit of infornation. The only WW2 veteran fighter pilot that plays this game, Monroe Q. Williams, a P-47 and P-51 pilot from 353'rd FG, with one confirmed BF-109 destroyed and hundreds of hours flying in enemy teritory, is flying open pit too"

Not correct.

Real world pilots does not = good game pilots. Open pit is easier and hardly more realistic then closed pit. You can tell yourself that all you want. But why oh why do you open pit fliers always feel like you need an excuse? Why do you feel you always need to justify yourself? And why do you lie to yourself by saying is more "real"? You want to fly arcade view then do so but please stop with the ridiculous reasons why. We closed pit fliers dont care. Fly what is more fun or easier for you and move on.

-HH-Quazi
05-15-2007, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Let me give you a bit of infornation. The only WW2 veteran fighter pilot that plays this game, Monroe Q. Williams, a P-47 and P-51 pilot from 353'rd FG, with one confirmed BF-109 destroyed and hundreds of hours flying in enemy teritory, is flying open pit too.
What makes you, a big mouth Internet punk, better then him, or anybody else for that matter? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Because that post of yours i think the mods should give you a long vacation. We can do without bullies in here.

Well it is good to know that there are other RL WWII fighter pilots flying this sim. But the m8 you mentioned isn't the only one. The K-9 Squadrons are honored to share the virtual skies with a WWII fighter pilot that started his duties at Guadalcanal in 1942 & stayed in this theatre of operations until the end of the war. This m8 flew F6F-5's, Corsairs, & SBD's. He flys in the cockpit all the time. He doesn't mind the icons because at 81 years young his eye sight isn't what it used to be. Same holds true for the speed bar.

So even with RL WWII fighter pilots, there are those that like open pit & some that do not, at least between these two m8s there are.

EiZ0N
05-16-2007, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Real world pilots does not = good game pilots. Open pit is easier and hardly more realistic then closed pit. You can tell yourself that all you want. But why oh why do you open pit fliers always feel like you need an excuse? Why do you feel you always need to justify yourself? And why do you lie to yourself by saying is more "real"? You want to fly arcade view then do so but please stop with the ridiculous reasons why. We closed pit fliers dont care. Fly what is more fun or easier for you and move on.
Your reasons for open pit aren't exactly briliant.

"More realistic"? Not a great deal, in many senses.

In terms of realism, there's not that much in it either way.

The arrows do tend to give away enemies that you wouldn't have seen, which is certainly unrealistic.

flipside

You have no peripheral vision in this sim. Your rods in the peripherals of your retina are extremely sensitive to spotting things like moving dots, and not having peripheral vision is one of the major 'unrealistic' aspects of the sim in my book.

So, I don't think you can make a case for either of them being more realistic. Even if you can, there's not a huge amount in it. Your eyes have a huge field of view, but the monitor is a tiny box in that field of view.

I think you're being a bit of a hypocrite. Why do open pit flyers need an excuse? Same reason closed pit flyers do.

Open pit doesn't necessarily make it easier, since everyone has open pit, it's a level playing field. You're more likely to get killed in an open pit server, just as you're more likely to get a kill. That doesn't make it 'easier', just 'different'. Easier to see, certainly.

I would propose a new arrow system for BOB - the closest enemy (i.e. the one you would be tracking anyway) should appear as an arrow, so that you can track him easier. The real life pilot would be able to follow the enemy far easier than one in this sim with full real - a large dot in the peripheral regions of your visual field is very easy to follow without looking directly at it.

Freelancer-1
05-16-2007, 07:40 AM
While I've never actually used this arrows thing, I will assume that they point to all the planes around you, including behind you.

I have yet to meet someone in R/L who's peripheral vision is so good that they can pick up the movement of dots that are actually behind them.

EiZ0N
05-16-2007, 08:28 AM
I've also yet to meet anyone in real life who flies fighter planes and has severe tunnel vision.

Both are equally flawed.

Freelancer-1
05-16-2007, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by EiZ0N:
I've also yet to meet anyone in real life who flies fighter planes and has severe tunnel vision.

Both are equally flawed.

True dat, homey http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-16-2007, 03:40 PM
I think you're being a bit of a hypocrite. Why do open pit flyers need an excuse? Same reason closed pit flyers do.

Wrong. I never made an excuse for flying closed pit. I enjoy it and prefer it. Thats a fact not an excuse. Like I said fly what you want you dont have to prove yourself to me or make excuses.