PDA

View Full Version : Landings in IL2



mango42
03-17-2005, 09:19 AM
Most of you'll probably find this dead boring but is there a FAQ on how to land safely and consistently in IL2(apart from Mad Piglet's hairy approaches). I suppose I'm a reality buff but I don't see the point of shooting every enemy plane down only to explode on landing.

I have come to favour the Yak 9U and I use a thrustmaster forcefeedback stick (set at 50%) on my own rig and get to land successfully about 2 times in 10, whereas on a mates rig, using a Saitek stick without FFB, I can land 7 times in 10 (still not great!)

Maybe I'm trying too hard but is there any ground aid at all in this wonderful sim - vector to base is all fine and dandy but how about line up when you get there?

Any suggestions welcome - it would enhance my already great pleasure in this sim if I could end each flight without making a hole in the runway... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

steve_v
03-17-2005, 09:52 AM
Have you been to airwarfare? Heres a link to therir guides and tutorials. They also have training tracts.
http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm

There is no ingame assistance. Would be a help with carrier landings, but you have to manage with what you have.

mortoma
03-17-2005, 10:04 AM
You have to line up the runway by eyeball only. There is no cheat or help for this, only practice.
I think a lot of newcomers to FB/AEP/PF might be having trouble if they are using the AI ( autopilot ) as an example of how to land. Don't do it!! The AI approach and land way, way too shallow. Following this technique will only lead to trouble since you must maintain high power settings to maintain the approach. Then, when you lessen or chop the throttle over the runway threshold the plane will drop hard. Learn to come in more steeply and point your nose or gunsight slightly before the near end of the runway. Maintain a descent approach speed which in the Yak-9U would be about 190 to 200Kph. Also, keep trimming up as you approach to keep the joystick pressure down and also to ensure you will have plenty of up elevator left when you get low and slow down at the runway. you don't want to run out of up elevator authority, so keep the trim neutral as you stabilize your approach.

Then when you get almost to the end of the runway and still about 15 meters up, either chop the throttle totally or drop it down to about 10%. Then the flare should be slow and gradual so as to get your wheels about a meter above the runway. Then try to hold your wheels about that height as long as possible and eventually you'll kind of settle or actually stall onto the runway at a speed of about 150-160KPh, which should be about right in that bird at first.

After you're more advanced, try to touch your wheels down about 130-140Kph, which will be closer to a 3 point landing. despite what some may say, in this sim a true, perfect 3 point landing is unneccessary and is probably harder to do that it would be in the real aircraft. In most planes you tend to get a wing drop to one side about the time you get that slow. Anyway, I can make a track of the way I land a Yak-3U and send it to your email so you can see how I do it.

antifreeze
03-17-2005, 11:52 AM
Helpful post by mortoma.
I would emphasise the use of trim as mort describes. I actually used to trim the nose down because it stopped excessive bouncing (the aircraft more-or-less stuck to the the runway on touch-down... not sure how realistic that was, but it worked in the game anyway), so I would literally fly onto the runway at a very shallow angle.
But I decided to learn to use trim properly because I needed to get my tail down for carrier landings when PF was released.

On final approach I trim three-quarters back, and as mort describes when a few feet above the runway, if you then trim all the way back the aircraft literally stalls onto the runway/carrier, tail down.

I'd add another point to mort's excellent advice. After you have touched down nicely, it is easy to panic and try to slow down too quickly with excessive braking, and risk nosing over. Don't panic. The deceleration is exponetial not linear; the more speed you have lost, the more you slow down. So before braking, make sure flaps are down, make sure trim is fully back, make sure you're in the middle of the runway, get the tail down by pulling gently back on the stick, take a few deep breaths... then think about braking. Tap the brakes for less than a second at a time at a frequency of once every two seconds. Simultaneously, every time you tap the brake pull back gently on the stick to keep the tail down (although flaps and trim will do most of the work).
If you find yourself off the runway and bouncing across the fields, don't use the brakes at all. Concentrate on keeping the tail down using the stick, and let the aircraft come to rest all by itself.

73GIAP_Milan
03-17-2005, 02:49 PM
also, when you come in, -- and this works for me very well -- use the gunsight crosshairs to 'aim' on the farthest end of the runway, it helps to attain a good glide angle

hope this helps you out a bit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mortoma
03-17-2005, 03:08 PM
Please note my technique works for me and I land all planes with no difficulty but it may not work for everybody. But this is the way I fly real GA aircraft and it's the way I was taught to do it.
And it seems to work fairly good in the sim too.

mortoma
03-17-2005, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:
also, when you come in, -- and this works for me very well -- use the gunsight crosshairs to 'aim' on the farthest end of the runway, it helps to attain a good glide angle

hope this helps you out a bit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do that but only if I need to bleed of excessive speed. When I get close I actually point my nose before the near end of the runway so I can see the runway well. If I did what you do all the way down I'd not be able to see the runway
once I got close.

msalama
03-17-2005, 03:51 PM
And one more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This is actually a standard real-life procedure (with some older types at least, dunno about modern prop jobs) and therefore possibly applicable to IL-2 as well?

Anyway, here goes:

Just before you cut your power completely - almost on the runway & some 10 m. AGL as Mortoma said & with your power way down low already - apply 100% prop pitch. This is very helpful if you have to do a go-around, because you'd then only need to apply full throttle to get up & out @ maximum power. Watch your sink rate, though, because you'll lose part of your thrust - and therefore lift too - when you do this!

Well dunno if you find this useful for IL-2, but I personally use it. And it has saved my a**e a couple of times too, because the offline IL-2 ATC isn't actually spoiled by overt cleverness at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Beuf_Ninja
03-17-2005, 04:22 PM
Personally I only ever trim for carrier landings. Approach the runway at 500+ metres so you can spot the thing.On a normal runway just make sure your vertical speed isn't over 10 metres per sec or 3 feet per sec as you touch down, forward velocity ~200km p/h. Just get used to missed approaches and with practice you'll get her down every time. I must add that I'm a minimap-path-on pansy which helps

han freak solo
03-17-2005, 07:11 PM
"You have to line up the runway by eyeball only. There is no cheat or help for this, only practice."

Mortoma explains it great. Once your'e over the threshold of the runway, watch the horizon as you flare. Note how the nose of the plane looks compared to the horizon.

The plane will come even with the horizon as you touch down. Use real smooth moves on the flare to prevent dropping or bouncing. Of course, for the carrier landings. I "kind of" slam into the deck to catch a wire.

F19_Ob
03-18-2005, 02:56 AM
A tip that worked for me was to practise on landings with throttle idle at first, wich felt impossible at the time, and when I became familiar to playing with the less energy I began training with narrow curved approaches and landing as fast as possible aswell as braking and slowing down the plane fast on the ground without nosing over, wich is very different depending on plane.
Next in line is to practise extreemly hard braking just before landing so that the speed goes from combatspeed to landingspeed instantly. (Good for forced landings during attack, but very difficult in some planes with poor stalling characteristics).


Online I prefer to fly at combat speed to the runway and a series slow turns in wich I look behind before I reach the strip, followed by hard braking turns (look behind)where I slow down to landingspeed in the final turn. Touchdown should happen only a few seconds after this final turn, so infact u land in the turn.
This tecnique have saved my but more times than I deserve when an attacker have caught me preparing for landing.

This training and juggling with energy is good for all stages of flight, even combat.
It has been good for me flying the il-2 since about 40% of my landings are without elevators and often other parts aswell.
Landing without elevators is especially tricky if u have lost ailerons too, but having learned to calculate speed u are better off.

Anyway, time is the thing. After a while U'll make perfect landings without thinking.
--------------------

It helps to stick to one or a few planes in the beginning because of the differences.

mango42
03-18-2005, 07:21 AM
Wow! I'm blown away with all the helpful responses! Gives me confidence that I'll get there eventually...

I wuz wondering how much the forcefeedback stick complicates the landing - sometimes it feels sooo soggy. I particularly take note of practising in one plane til I get it right - that's one reason for sticking with the Yak9U - lovely kite...

Particular thanks to all of you - even if you have shot me to pieces online before now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

SweetMonkeyLuv
03-18-2005, 09:02 AM
Anyone know of, or have, any tracks of 109 approach & landing? The training track one sorta sucks.

I'm at somewhere around 65% success rate, and am getting quite tired of having to bail over my airfield to ensure a success.

Wilburnator
03-18-2005, 10:30 AM
If you could get on com with an experienced IL2 pilot and get in a practice server that would be a huge help. If not, go to quick mission builder, alone (no enemies), find an airfield, and do touch and go's. Hit refly when you crash, no biggie. I can't imagine that after a couple of hours of touch and go's you would not be getting the idea. In no time at all, you should be where I'm at, in which case landing safely will be the least of your worries, lol.

JuHa-
03-18-2005, 10:59 AM
Well,

Mortoma already wrote everything necessary, but
I'm going to try adding few points.

In normal landing (I prefer left handed path)
, I try to fly the approach via an 'U' shaped
path, where the right side represents the runway, and top of the 'U' is the end of the
runway.

So first I align myself parallel to the runway,
1-2kms away at an altitude of ~500m. When I'm
at level with the end of the runway,
I close the throttle, set prop pitch to 100%,
open the radiator and drop the combat flaps.
I might even pull the nose up a little, to
reduce speed to ~300km/h. Then gear down, and
all the flaps. Waiting until the speed is
220km/h or so.

By this time it's perfect to start the turn left
towards runway, and align myself with the
desired runway. I aim too just a little
before the runway, as the finals will carry me
over. During this turn I usually open the
throttle to ~10...20% depending on my altitude
and distance. It helps to control the plane
too, IMHO, while gliding at ~200km/h gently
downwards.

The finals give you two options:
1) you hold the nose up, and let the plane sink
2) you pin the plane down with small push on
the stick.

Both have pros and cons, try to practice both
as the 2) option is handy when landing a plane
that goes way too fast.

F19_Ob
03-18-2005, 11:04 AM
SweetMonkey.....

Sadly Cant make any tracks at the moment (stick broken).
I had several tracks for download (a while ago) depicting the 109 in combatlandings, also when the airfield was under attack. Have no space online anymore.
----------------------------

A few tips

One thing that makes landing easier is to zoom out as much as possible, perhaps even switch to shift+F1 view (in some planes) so u see more of the ground.
The visible ground and surroundings will make it easier to determine your speed, altitude and attitude.

If U crash frequently on landing u most probably cant handle your plane in slow speeds yet, wich is normal in the beginning.
A common mistake is to adjust flighpath too abruptly with insufficent speed and thus stall and crash.
Sometimes the sensitivity on the stick can be set to high so even small input jolts the aircraft. If so, adjust in settings.



Ok... one way to improve the slowspeed handling for landing is to practise to fly slow with some altitude to explore the limit before stall and to fly slow for longer periods.
Fly so slow that u can deploy landing flap and wheels, and trim the nose up so it doesnt sink.
Working with throttle , flaps and trim will come handy in battle aswell.

If u have'nt done this yet U may feel that u improve even after 10-20 testflights....Why?
Because its a different matter when u think about what u are doing while doing it.
Later it becomes second nature like riding a bike and u can concentrate on other matters.

When u are more confident and can fly slow, try to make some turns without stalling, and if u stall, release pressure on the stick to recover as fast as possible and resume flight.
After a while U should be able to do quite hard turns without snap-stalls = flipping.

When landing do only short approaches since long slow ones infact are harder and more demanding regarding checking your instruments.
(also easy for enemies to target) Long approaches also tend to be shallow in descent wich means that u hardly wont see anything infront of u on the final wich is the part that makes it very difficult to calculate the speed and angle for far too long time.
Stupid really and no wonder if and why people got killed.

Landing with throttle idle means also that u can use a steeper angle and still not come in too fast. If u miscalculate and overshoot u just throttle up and try again
Dont try 3-point landings to start with but throttle down as soon as the wheels touch down.
As I wrote before I think the best and fastest way to improve landings is to practise landings with throttle idle because u become more focused on what u do.
Ofcourse U may crash a few times but also that forces u to focus.
Landing in a shallow descending turn instead of a straight run isnt that difficult and also improves the visibility over the field until final stages.
------------------------------

If U still wont improve, send me some NTRK. tracks of your landingattempts and I'll go through them.
I myself thought the landings were difficult when I started (years ago) and this difficulty is one of the reasons I still love this sim.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

mango42
03-19-2005, 04:27 AM
So many wise words - amazing - I really appreciate all the feedback.

To SweetMonkeyLuv - if FI-Willie doesn't get in touch with you, I'll be getting some 109 trx from him soon, I think.

To Wilburnator - that's the weird bit - I don't have much trouble in the hairy stuff (not that I like the destruction part that much!) but seem to go to pieces when saving my own skin (and plane) at zero altitude - LOL

To JuHa and F19_OB - your words are very gratefully received and added to Mortoma's excellent and considered advice should get me landing consistently before too long - otherwise I'll take you up on your kind offer and send you some of my disaster 'landings' (or take up stamp collecting instead?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Them's good words about long slow approaches - by the time I'm lined up I'm not anymore, if you see what I mean! But then, it's never occurred to me to use an outside view - kinda cheating in a way?

Which brings me to what looks like an omission in IL2 unless I missed a history lesson. ISTR that both Hurricanes and Spits had rear-view mirrors (as standard?) but I've yet to find any single seater in IL2 that uses one - why is that? Did Russian and German pilots have 360deg swivelling necks or what?

- thanks so much for your efforts.

mad 'mango' origano

OldPepper
03-19-2005, 08:26 AM
A suble, and probably very obvious tip:

In most flight sims (without 3D goggles), you are denied binocular paralax. Distances between you and the runway, or between you and an enemy plane are difficult to judge without 2 eyeballs! It takes time to build distance instincts in a world with only perspective and size as visual cues to aid your judgement.

Another helpful aid in landings is the Rate of Climb or descent meter (I forget what it's actually called. Variometer?) Using this meter will help avoid breaking your gear. Land at 2-3 meters per second.

Also, when you start to nose up, make a visual tally on a cloud in the distace to keep your alignment when you lose visual of the runway behind your nose in the flare or if you do come in too shallow.

Jagdklinger
03-19-2005, 03:30 PM
A great thread. Another for my 'print' collection.
Advice and tactics like tis will only improve the quality of players in the sim, and thats good for all concerned.

Cheers!