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View Full Version : "I find this pretty weird"; Forevernoob confused about perfomance issues



Pahvilaatikko
01-28-2007, 05:08 AM
I started a qm to train some energy fighting and gunning. So I picked Bf-109G-10 because I like the performance and the structure of the cockpit and I wanted to give pretty good performing crate to AI so I didn't pick a slow biplane but I-185 M71 which has excellent flying charasteristics in 1942 according the plane guide in 1956 DVD.

I set the altitude to 3000 and situation to none.

The first times I let him get behind me about 1 km away to practise evading and turning the situation around and most times I managed to out roll away when he got close but few times he ashamed me by killing the pilot in a situation where I tried climb away. I thought "ok, it was my mistake, I didn't do it correctly".

But after that "exercise" I started trying to get advantage right after frontal meeting. First times I messed up a bit (i have difficulties keeping my eyes on the enemy with joystic hat) but got behind him about 1.5 km away me being lower then him. I thought ok, I have better plane and can catch up but no. I had speed about 380 km/h and climbing but he kept getting further away and climbing too. So I thought maybe he got better energy in the beginning when we both started climbing. (Eventually I won when he turned around and I outmanouevred him).

The weird part: Next time I got my scissors with a vertical component going right, didn't miss him and got him a few hundred meters below me. So I dove towards his tail while he was diving too and was gaining him at first, distance was about 600 m. He got flying horizontal few hundred meters above ground level and me behind him thinking I can catch him because I was flying nearly 500 km/h and he was making small manouevres to see where I am (but still going pretty straight. Well I thought wrong, that sob was moderately gaining distance after getting horizontal, with a 2 years older plane then I had!

To you who got longer experience (Sorry about long epilogue) about the game, does this sound right to you? Or is AI getting advantage over human player or what? I thought planes where getting faster and faster as the war proceeded and or is it really so that 1944 G-10 is inferior in velocity to 1942 russian crate..?

FritzGryphon
01-28-2007, 05:14 AM
The AI has a significant advantage in speed, particularly while diving and climbing.

To test this yourself, try and race an enemy plane of the same type as yours. It will catch up to you like you're standing still.

When IL-2 first came out, there wasn't this problem. You could outperform the AI very easily, expecially given how often it wastes energy.

Somewhere in AEP or PF, the AI performance got broken to what it is now. Either a deliberate balancing measure, or just a bug that wasn't fixed.

Pahvilaatikko
01-28-2007, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
The AI has a significant advantage in speed, particularly while diving and climbing.

To test this yourself, try and race a friendly AI wingman to a target, like a grounded enemy plane. The AI wingman will get there long before you do.

When IL-2 first came out, there wasn't this problem. Somewhere in AEP-PF, the AI performance got broken to what it is now. That's just plain silly. It should be an option not a default thing. For example if you pick your opponent to be an ace since aces are like wizards and it is presumable that they posses secret powers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tigertalon
01-28-2007, 05:38 AM
First of all, yeah, AI cheats BIG time (no dive limit, no black/redouts, WWview etc etc)

Secondly, I-185 with M-71 engine is a startling performer. M-71 with it's 3 stage supercharger and 2000+HP is way stronger than M-82, and you can expect 185 to be able to climb away from you.

Pick a spitIX if you want a decent match for alco 109. Or a La7/5FN, but those are a lot easier.

Brain32
01-28-2007, 05:42 AM
I-185 is 1C dream plane be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I recommend fighting it with ME163 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

FritzGryphon
01-28-2007, 05:43 AM
I just tried out the AI, and learned that it also uses full WEP in combat.

I flew around with an enemy FW-190 for 10 minutes, and it used WEP the whole time. This is significant, as a human player can only use WEP for short periods, or suffer engine failure.

In IL-2, I recall the AI only used 100% power, and throttled up only for brief periods when it was shot.

Pahvilaatikko
01-28-2007, 10:31 AM
Ok, I get it, AI cheat + powerful engine. Didn't notice that.

And I agree it's a dream plane because otherwise it would have entered serial production if it was so excellent.

horseback
01-28-2007, 11:49 AM
Actually, I think the correct term for the I-185's sort of performance is "fantasy."

I agree with the contention that the ai routines went completely into the tank with the advent of Pacific Fighters' last series of patches. It sometimes seems to me that Oleg has some kind of grudge against off-liners, what with the kill-stealing wingmen and laser aiming bomber gunners, because people have been pointing it out, and asking it to either be fixed or at least modifiable (especially those detestable robot gunners).

It just seems to me that the ai should have realistic limitations on their aircraft performance and SA, and that the defensive gunners should be far less effective. Certainly my purchase of the Storm of War series will be based on evidence of genuine improvement in the ai.

cheers

horseback

Pirschjaeger
01-28-2007, 07:41 PM
I'm far from being an expert but I figured the AI do so well simply because the AI have inside information.

Your opponant is your computer. All aspects of your game is being run by the computer. I think the AI has the same limits as we do but the difference is the AI (computer) knows the limits and can play right at the edge while we will go over the edge.

Here's an example. Some guys just fly on default settings and use minimal input to control the plane. Some guys take complete control but constantly adjusting the prop and many other engine settings. To add, the second group will know more about saving energy. So, when you fly minimal controls against someone who often flies maximum controls with same planes, you'll notice they can outperform you.

Remember, the AI have inside information and can fly right at the edge. They also use maximum amount of controls.

Just a thought

horseback
01-28-2007, 10:23 PM
Flying with perfect control may be part of the equation, but I just flew a mission in a MiG-3 where a 109E literally flew behind my canopy frames, intenetionally maneuvering to hide himself behind them while I was trying to maneuver and track him down. I recorded the track (postmission) and watched it, flipping back and forth from Wonder Woman to Cockpit view during that part of the sortie, as he flew along the forward right canopy frame and tracked across the front horizontal frame as we both slow rolled and looped for almost 15 seconds- now, that's programmed behavior almost calculated to frustrate the offline player, and I think it's just immoral.

AI behavior below the 'Ace' level should be set to imitate human limitations, and that hasn't come close to happening since the 3.0m expansion.

The appeal of offline play is immersion; you should be able to use the historic advantages of your aircraft, postioning, and tactics as they were practiced in WWII. Right now, against ai ranked Average and above, you simply cannot do that, and 'Rookie' ai are little better than clay pidgeons with still way too great a performance edge over the real things vs the player.

cheers

horseback

Pirschjaeger
01-28-2007, 10:55 PM
I know what you mean HB.

Something that really annoys me is that the AI seem to have their stick connected with my trigger. If I sneak up behind one, from below, who's flying straight, just as I pull the trigger, he banks and dives. Not very realistic.

This is what I mean by "inside information". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But somehow I feel that programing AI to be less than perfect is not an easy thing to do. Oleg's got a lot on his plate and has to prioritize.

lowfighter
01-29-2007, 12:11 AM
I posted some time ao a test method to check what power settings different AI aircraft use for acceleration in level flight. Because many times I'm in the tail of some enemy AC and I feel it accelerates too well. However the test didn't show any cheating at least for the FW190A8. The test setup:
One B17 running at maximum speed (approx 500 Km/h) and 100m altitude. One AI FW190A8 a couple of Kms behind the B17 at the beginning of the mission starting 300 KM/h and 100m altitude. A second FW190A8 controled by me, right behind first FW, starting 300 Km/h and 100m altitude.
Test1: sttarted mission and tried to stay with first FW. He was of course accelerating to catch the B17. In this test I just fired power to maximum trimmed and tried to fly as smoothly as possible. I couldn't keep with the AI FW. With maximum power I read about 2500 RPM.
Test2: started mission and imediately turned on autopilot and look at the gauges. The AI was flying at 2700 RPM and of course kept close to first FW.
Test3. Started mission, went to max power AND changed the prop pitch to 100. I got about 2700 RPM and could stay very well with the first FW. By the time I reached the B17 I had approx the maximum speed by the books at 2700 rpm. In these books as well as Oleg's the 2700 rpm is an emmergency setting, the combat setting is 2500 rpm. So the FW AI were using emmergency engine settings. By the way anyone can tell me: is there a pitch lever in FW, I couldn't find one, so I'm wondering. Also I remember some debates of whether historically the manual prop pitch was used in combat or not on FW190's.
The test is simple and can be used to test any other aircraft in level acceleration and read the AI engine settings (and perhaps learn from that lol).

WWMaxGunz
01-29-2007, 02:13 AM
AI 'cheat' by flying the plane at all times correctly.
They are always in trim.
They fly the most efficient paths within tactical restraints.
They do know when you are just so close, always know where you are and where you are going,
what your energy state is and when you are inside most effective firing range,
They have perfect smooth stick use.
In dives they run prop control perfectly with no guessing what is best.
They do not overuse or abuse CEM.
They are perfect with rudder, never in slip.
IOW they fly right.

Or maybe some times they are not perfect, just close. It perhaps depends on AI level?

BUT: there is always a slight delay on the evade and it can be taken advantage of.

Hit them from much higher speed. 100+ kph advantage is best.
And shoot from beyond convergence because with your speed advantage there is a shorter bullet
flight time to that slower target, the range closes while the shot is on the way -- bullet drop
is by time so with high closing speed the shots cross the pipper farther out.

You can get damage or kill on the AI before they evade, I know I have many, many times.

WWMaxGunz
01-29-2007, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
By the way anyone can tell me: is there a pitch lever in FW, I couldn't find one, so I'm wondering. Also I remember some debates of whether historically the manual prop pitch was used in combat or not on FW190's.

It should be two electric switches. One for increase, one for decrease. But if that is pitch
or rpm increase/decrease I can't tell you right now.