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View Full Version : Kamikaze in 1933........



LEBillfish
01-04-2010, 01:12 PM
http://blog.modernmechanix.com...ath-on-flying-bombs/ (http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2009/02/05/jap-pilots-ride-to-death-on-flying-bombs/)

.....and a look at Navies 1932 http://blog.modernmechanix.com...-if-us-fights-japan/ (http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2009/01/16/best-mechanics-will-win-if-us-fights-japan/)

K2

DuxCorvan
01-04-2010, 01:55 PM
Interesting view on racial stereotypes in page 4... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Also interesting the underestimated Japanese ingenuity, saying that it's very hard to make a pilot or a good driver of a Japanese, that they can't produce aircraft on their own... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Superiority of American engineering brains over the Oriental variety is well demonstrated in the newest United States bombing plane..."

LOL. That kind of mindset found a rude awakening in December 1941, I guess.

And that theory about airships unrivaled as scouts... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

berg417448
01-04-2010, 02:02 PM
And...to be fair, the Japanese held racial stereotypes of their own about non-Japanese people.

Each side seems to have done their best to underestimate the abilities of the other.

Ba5tard5word
01-04-2010, 02:36 PM
Interesting find. There wasn't any basis to this manned bomb was there? I wonder if the article gave the Japanese the idea for the Ohka.

JtD
01-04-2010, 03:14 PM
Only read the second article. It's very interesting, partially funny, partially sad.

Thanks for posting.

Waldo.Pepper
01-04-2010, 04:42 PM
Shocking that fear mongering was passed off as intelligence. I wonder what people will make of our media in 70+ years.

wheelsup_cavu
01-04-2010, 04:57 PM
Interesting read . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I just love how the airship crew was expected to parachute out and become Prisoners of War.


Wheels

baronWastelan
01-04-2010, 10:50 PM
Oh dear, all that stereotyping! No wonder they attacked us: we hurt their feelings. Who could blame them? LOL

RSS-Martin
01-04-2010, 11:39 PM
Propaganda stuff, reading that, regardless which side. The side printing the stuff is invincible, and the others are just incompatent and are not able to find their way out of a paper bag.
Nothing new, has been around since roman times.

Viper2005_
01-05-2010, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Each side seems to have done their best to underestimate the abilities of the other.

Wars not adjudged likely to be over by the nearest convenient Christmas or equivalent public holiday tend to be far less attractive than those which are.

'Twas ever thus.

The logical fallacy inherent in the idea that it is necessary to fight any sort of war whatever against those who are unable to fight back seems to continually escape people.

Clearly, the genuinely helpless are more efficiently dealt with via a strongly worded letter (traditionally bearing the legend <span class="ev_code_red">FINAL DEMAND</span>) than by the expensive deployment of armed forces.

Therefore the deployment of armed forces implies one or more of the following:

a) Those in charge are stupid
b) Opposition is likely
c) Corruption of some sort is involved

[/cynicism]

Viper2005_
01-05-2010, 04:09 AM
But the dirigible is of great size and highly vulnerable to gun fire, claim the critics of the navy’s faith in the airship. Quite right. The navy knows it. But that does not help the enemy after an airship has done it’s work and spoiled his chances for success. Such an airship fleet would “spot” any Japanese fleet attempting to make a sneak upon us while it is still many hundreds of miles at sea. The position of the enemy fleet, together with highly important information regarding the nature of his attacking force, would immediately be radioed from the discovering airship to our war department Our battle fleet would immediately steam out to meet the enemy on the high seas.

It is entirely possible that we might stand to lose the airship discovering the enemy fleet at sea. The airship would probably be brought down by gun fire from the enemy’s battleships. By that time, however, the airship would have completed her all-important mission. Her officers and crew would parachute out with life preservers to be picked out of the sea as prisoners of war. We would have lost a crew of about a hundred highly-trained officers and men, and a $4,000,000 airship. That would be a nominal price for the information that would frustrate a naval attack upon the Panama Canal, or upon some seacoast city such as New York, Boston, Los Angeles, or San Francisco.

Obviously this represents a sacrifice, which is totally different from that of the kamikaze... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

julian265
01-05-2010, 06:42 AM
Maybe human guided bombs would have increased the accuracy of the allied bombing raids also, thus reducing the need for bomber numbers and second visits to targets, hence a net saving of allied lives.

Seems plausible to me.... Leaving out the psychology.

Worf101
01-05-2010, 08:27 PM
All I noticed was that last group of puppets.

Sigh...

Worf

wheelsup_cavu
01-06-2010, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Worf101:
All I noticed was that last group of puppets.

Sigh...

Worf
I saw them too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Wheels

SeaFireLIV
01-06-2010, 02:52 AM
Fascinating. I love reading on the truth of the attitude of the times and how people just saw it as normal. Even the sad puppet show (no doubt jolly to them) reveals the truth of the times at least in the US.

The certainty to which the article openly denigrates the japanese might be shocking, but was of course normal at the time as of course with other cultures that saw themselves as superior. He talks with gravitas as if he really knows when he`s talking balls. Yet few in the US would probably disagree. Well, they were soon to find out differently later.

In some ways it is very much a reflection of modern times today, just look around at our news and see the comparisons, it`s there. We are not so different.


Sometimes I wish I they had cameras and audio in Roman times and other ancient periods just so I could see and hear the Roman attitudes towards defeated European `barbarians`, slaves and the right of conquest in a world where `human Rights` didn`t exist and `compassion` were only for silly women and children.

Blottogg
01-06-2010, 03:29 AM
A very interesting finds LE, thanks for posting. Having done some research on the period (everyone has to attempt to write a novel, no matter how abortive or badly it goes. My version is set in an alternate 1930) there are some things I noticed:

- The young Lt. gets some things right. He mentions Pearl Harbor as our major stronghold, and the possibility of a sneak attack nine years before it happened. He also got the vulnerability of the Aleutians, Guam and the Philippines right. He over-reached a bit on the vulnerability of mainland Alaska and the CONUS, though.

- He missed the tactic of island hopping, instead thinking the war would be "steam and hunt". Jutland was less than 20 years before this article, and battleships still ruled, at least in planning. His timeline for the subsequent war, and the key role U.S. industry would play, were both pretty close to the mark.

- His comments on Japanese carriers are odd. For flight ops, I think the Japanese arrangement was better, but less seaworthy, though he has a point about observers in those pre-radar days. Something he missed with the "Kawa" (I'm assuming he's referring to the Kaga, pre-refit) is that its long lateral smoke stack all but baked the poor swabbies berthed behind it. Smoke from her mixed coal/oil boilers must have been a problem, too. The stack was shortened during a mid-30's refit and the coal boilers were replaced with an all oil arrangement. Her main flightdeck was lengthened, the two forward "launch decks" leading out of the two-deck hangars were eliminated (their one-upping of the two-deck British Glorious, Furious and Courageous not having worked out).

- Japanese aircraft of the period were largely licensed copies of British or French designs, or local developments of those designs. What he didn't know was that the next generation would have much more local design content. Given that the country emerged from isolation only sixty-odd years prior, this is actually pretty rapid catch-up.

- The dirigible comments are interesting. Alternately suggesting that losing one is the price to pay for preventing a sneak attack, or suggesting that the F9C's could lay a smoke screen for escape (this is perhaps artist's license), I sense a bit of desperation justifying their use. In reality, the F9C's would do most of the scouting, keeping the airship out of direct harm. Pilots didn't really like the F9C's, I'm guessing because they had short range, even though they'd remove the landing gear and replace it with an external tank while embarked aboard the airship. In the days before radar, this again almost makes sense. Also consider that circa 1930, most warships didn't have much in the way of AAA, and scout biplanes on capital ships weren't much faster than the airships. Given a 20 mile head-start, the USS Akron might have been able to show her heels to a biplane, or have her fighters chase it off. His dream of 100 of them was never going to happen though. We didn't have the money or the helium.

- Interesting too that he blasts the London Treaty, but never mentions the Washington Treaty that preceded it, and that had the majority of the capital ship restrictions.

- My only comment on the shorter article that spawned this thread is that I wonder what false rumor provided the impetus for it? Racism aside, it was to some degree prophetic.

RSS-Martin
01-06-2010, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Fascinating. I love reading on the truth of the attitude of the times and how people just saw it as normal. Even the sad puppet show (no doubt jolly to them) reveals the truth of the times at least in the US.

The certainty to which the article openly denigrates the japanese might be shocking, but was of course normal at the time as of course with other cultures that saw themselves as superior. He talks with gravitas as if he really knows when he`s talking balls. Yet few in the US would probably disagree. Well, they were soon to find out differently later.

In some ways it is very much a reflection of modern times today, just look around at our news and see the comparisons, it`s there. We are not so different.


Sometimes I wish I they had cameras and audio in Roman times and other ancient periods just so I could see and hear the Roman attitudes towards defeated European `barbarians`, slaves and the right of conquest in a world where `human Rights` didn`t exist and `compassion` were only for silly women and children.
Oh there is still enough written material from that time to get a good picture, and yes just like in WWII or even today, they talk of the vastly inferior, those that are so scattered and unorganised that they would never be a threat.....only a few centuries down the road those people they called primitive wiped them off the map....nothing really changes. Just look at ancient graffiti and modern graffiti, no differace except then they didn´t have spray paint, but the topics are the same....

LEBillfish
01-06-2010, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Worf101:
All I noticed was that last group of puppets.

Sigh...

Worf

Though off topic there it is....and oddly right along side the rather blatant Japanese stereotyping....

In comparison however, consider your squadron's name sake. Basically (as us "Redskins", Hispanics, all Oriental, Aboriginal, etc. were thought of the same), any non-white race in the 30's was deffinitely stereotyped openly (and then naturally they'd start picking apart the white nationalities irish/italian/etc.).

Lot of hating going on back then......Funny how all those groups so slammed endured and proved it all wrong.....

Though no doubt offensive and hurtful, best such words and images from history be kept intact.....Otherwise folks forget.

K2

Waldo.Pepper
01-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Lot of hating going on back then

At the risk of straying further off topic, back then is sadly still now. There is some progress I suppose but not being a visible minority I think it the height of hubris for me to declare the problem a thing of the past.

LEBillfish
01-06-2010, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
At the risk of straying further off topic, back then is sadly still now. There is some progress I suppose but not being a visible minority I think it the height of hubris for me to declare the problem a thing of the past.

Agree 100%.......and personally I believe until a couple generations are dead and gone, "knowing" equality (as in not seeing a difference) will simply be an effort made to even just holding ones tongue.

However, I'm also not too keen on eliminating the evidence of the past....as if you do, there is no proof of what was shameful. Slam it from now to beyond, yet don't erase it.

K2