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Stackhouse25th
02-23-2005, 04:46 PM
I AM TALKING MAINLY ABOUT CONTACT EXPLOSIONS ON THE GROUND, NOT WEAPON FIRE EXPLOSIONS WHICH YES HAVE HISTORICAL TRUTH.


Aircraft just blowing up without any realism to it at all!! Look at LO-MAC 1.1, seems you can roll and tumble the plane. There are some things in this game that need fixing like instant explosions and contact explosions at certain speeds.

gates123
02-23-2005, 05:17 PM
you must be flying a zero. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-23-2005, 05:22 PM
Oh yes. LOMAC.
The sim with no problems, shortcomings or bugs at all.

Chuck_Older
02-23-2005, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
Aircraft just blowing up without any realism to it at all!! Look at LO-MAC 1.1, seems you can roll and tumble the plane. There are some things in this game that need fixing like instant explosions and contact explosions at certain speeds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Some specific examples with explanations of your concerns may be in order...

p1ngu666
02-23-2005, 08:50 PM
some planes did just explode irl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ImpStarDuece
02-23-2005, 09:12 PM
Depends what you hit them with. I have just been doing 4 ACE wildcats vs 1 A6M3 in QMB.

A really solid burst of cannon fire into the engine or belly can turn the tough little pane into a expanding ball of debris, if it hits at convergence.

On the other hand putting the same amount of ammo into dead six or the wings wont do anything like that.

Shawdawg
02-23-2005, 09:39 PM
Maybe this guy just needs to realize that these planes have fuel, ammunition, and sometimes bombs. And u know what happens when an explosive cannon shell, or a flaming piece of debris, hits something like THOSE?

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

LEXX_Luthor
02-24-2005, 03:17 AM
Yep, Saburo writes of exploding P~39s and P~40s, from time to time.

jurinko
02-24-2005, 04:05 AM
also Lipfert managed to explode Yaks in Bf 109 quite often - not so easy in FB though

Tipo_Man
02-24-2005, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shawdawg:
Maybe this guy just needs to realize that these planes have fuel, ammunition, and sometimes bombs. And u know what happens when an explosive cannon shell, or a flaming piece of debris, hits something like THOSE?

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The guy i sperfectly right. Maybe you watch too many movies where every crashing car explodes like a bomb...

Explosions where the plane "disappears" are one of the most innacurate things in this sim. Yes plane can burst into flames, even have its fuel tank explode, but it shouldn't just disappear like in old ATARI game.
An aircraft is not filled with explosives!
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out

Just notice how a plane just disappears when it just touches the ground. Boom, a crater on the ground and no plane. Instead it should continue rolling over the surface, falling apart...

Actually explosions are a simple way the conceal the drawback of the damage model...

Do the following test and you'll get my point.

Place some AI plane on a runway and the place a plane with a rear gunner (IL-2 for example )
in front of it in a way that you can hit it with the rear machinegun. Take control of the rear gunner and then:
Aim exactly for the cockpit and start placing bursts into it... EVERY time after some amount of damage the plane will explode... Now tell me do you think there are explosives in the cockpit?

Chuck_Older
02-24-2005, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shawdawg:
Maybe this guy just needs to realize that these planes have fuel, ammunition, and sometimes bombs. And u know what happens when an explosive cannon shell, or a flaming piece of debris, hits something like THOSE?

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The guy i sperfectly right. Maybe you watch too many movies where every crashing car explodes like a bomb...

Explosions where the plane "disappears" are one of the most innacurate things in this sim. Yes plane can burst into flames, even have its fuel tank explode, but it shouldn't just disappear like in old ATARI game.
An aircraft is not filled with explosives!
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out

Just notice how a plane just disappears when it just touches the ground. Boom, a crater on the ground and no plane. Instead it should continue rolling over the surface, falling apart...

Actually explosions are a simple way the conceal the drawback of the damage model...

Do the following test and you'll get my point.

Place some AI plane on a runway and the place a plane with a rear gunner (IL-2 for example )
in front of it in a way that you can hit it with the rear machinegun. Take control of the rear gunner and then:
Aim exactly for the cockpit and start placing bursts into it... EVERY time after some amount of damage the plane will explode... Now tell me do you think there are explosives in the cockpit? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing the same game I am? I see a plane's remains in my smoking craters. Sometimes the fuselage is sticking out of the ground. After a short period, they de-spawn.

I also routinely see large identifiable chunks of airplanes falling through the air, such as engines, wings, tailplanes, etc, and I see flaming engines bounce along the ground after ground contact


Are you seriously saying these things are not in the sim??

Tipo_Man
02-24-2005, 04:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

Are you playing the same game I am? I see a plane's remains in my smoking craters. Sometimes the fuselage is sticking out of the ground. After a short period, they de-spawn.

I also routinely see large identifiable chunks of airplanes falling through the air, such as engines, wings, tailplanes, etc, and I see flaming engines bounce along the ground after ground contact


Are you seriously saying these things are not in the sim?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I see them. But the problem is what makes them appear.
Do you think that hitting the groung with 200km/h at 10 degree angle should cause a plane explode like a 500kg bomb?!

Do you thing that hitting the cockpit should make a plane explode? And right now the game looks like a stupid gangster movie. Plane explosions are just too frequent. Maybe 20% of destroyed planes are destroyed by an explosion. Hartman shot down 352 planes. Do you thing 70 of them just disappeared into the air?!

Yes exploding bombers cause debris falling apart. The problemis that fighters just disappear.

FRAGAL
02-24-2005, 04:51 AM
Looks fine to me explosion bang bits everywhere, now in regards to your test you have to remember a lot of planes had a reserve central fuel tank / oil tank, as well as all sorts of rather flammable bits just in front of the cockpit, that'll make a mess if you get an incendiary or HE shell in there.

OldMan____
02-24-2005, 04:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

Are you playing the same game I am? I see a plane's remains in my smoking craters. Sometimes the fuselage is sticking out of the ground. After a short period, they de-spawn.

I also routinely see large identifiable chunks of airplanes falling through the air, such as engines, wings, tailplanes, etc, and I see flaming engines bounce along the ground after ground contact


Are you seriously saying these things are not in the sim?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I see them. But the problem is what makes them appear.
Do you think that hitting the groung with 200km/h at 10 degree angle should cause a plane explode like a 500kg bomb?!

Do you thing that hitting the cockpit should make a plane explode? And right now the game looks like a stupid gangster movie. Plane explosions are just too frequent. Maybe 20% of destroyed planes are destroyed by an explosion. Hartman shot down 352 planes. Do you thing 70 of them just disappeared into the air?!

Yes exploding bombers cause debris falling apart. The problemis that fighters just disappear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will explain why you will never see what you want and you should be happy as it is.


EACH debri.. after it detaches from a plane is the same as a whle new PLANE for the physics engine ..on any rigid body physics engine! If debriss remained for long... after 5 planes are destroied we would need an Athlon 64 3500 only to simmulate the debris. So please people think before complaining of such mediocre things

JG54_Arnie
02-24-2005, 05:32 AM
Hmm, I find it interesting that also with exploding fighters you can recognize a lot of the plane parts in the debri-"cloud". And every part tumbles back to earth in a proper fasion, quite impressive actually...

Maybe explosion occur a little bit too often and fire not enough and wings might fall off too much, planes might break in half too much, maybe. Hard to say, do you have statistics of the state in which planes went down in the war?

Then also consider the fact that people flying this game are only happy when a plane falls appart completely or explodes. So compared to the real thing, in the game we keep on firing even when a plane is already out of action because of wounded or dead pilot, control loss, parts blown off that were important for turning and stuff. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And online people stay in their plane a lot longer than pilots in the war used to. We don't panic when we get hit and bail out right away do we? So its not fair to compair I think..

jurinko
02-24-2005, 07:16 AM
"Do you thing that hitting the cockpit should make a plane explode? And right now the game looks like a stupid gangster movie. Plane explosions are just too frequent. Maybe 20% of destroyed planes are destroyed by an explosion. Hartman shot down 352 planes. Do you thing 70 of them just disappeared into the air?!"

Dunno how many did explode, but I read that a new pilot come to HatmannāĀ“s unit and showed suspicion whether Hartmann is not faking his kills somehow. Erich took him as a number into the air and both flew to the frontline. Within few minutes Hartmann EXPLODED (quote from the book) two Lavochkins and they flew home. The "not-believing Thomas" was persuaded forever.

BenQ-the-Hawk
02-24-2005, 07:37 AM
well last time online i flew behind a I_16 with a Brewster and i hit er many many times and saw not even a fuel lack! But after firing another round at the I-16 it exploded right away and no parts of the plane flew down! Is this real?

dadada1
02-24-2005, 08:52 AM
I think what the original poster is getting at is the "vaporisation" effect. I can't remember which patch this came in, but I'm sure if you go back to an install of the original IL2 FB you'll find it was'nt there. I think prior to an explosion you may at least expect to see perhaps a little smoke, glycol, fuel, (take your pick) before armegeddon. Does'nt tally with the gun cam footage I've ever seen. This seems particularly to be a phenomenon that occurs with MK108 hits. In game it sometimes has the same effect as a deathray, with plane and pilot bypassing the crispy stage and going straight into the next world. Okay if your into the **** the Hollywood pumps out, but not really in line with real world physics. Like I said I'm sure it was'nt like that when first released.

jurinko
02-24-2005, 09:13 AM
yep at least the engine block should remain in one piece after explosion

plumps_
02-24-2005, 09:28 AM
Is this what you call a vaporizing I-16? All the parts are still there after the explosion. The engine block can be seen top left.

http://www.webdesign-bu.de/SturmovikShots/i16expl.jpg

Maybe the engine should be smoking and burning to make it more realistic, like the Zero's in this picture:

http://www.webdesign-bu.de/SturmovikShots/zeroexpl.jpg

Maybe it doesn't because the I-16 has one of the oldest damage models in the game.

To the one who said that it didn't happen in the original release: It did.

ednavar
02-24-2005, 09:48 AM
It's just an eye candy but do you guys remeber Jane's WW2 Fighters? I loved to crashland just to look at the wreck..

E.

LeadSpitter_
02-27-2005, 06:40 PM
out of 18 hours of guncamera footage, I have only seen it happen once to a bf110 which got hit by about 18 b17 gunnerstations and its not the guns that exploded it but caused a fire then looks like the cannon ammo exploded in the bf110 tearing the whole plane into pieces.

The exploded into a million pieces was more of a figure of speech when being shot hundreds of pieces of small debris flying thru the air is why the pilots said this. And secondary explosions of fuel tanks ripping off larger pieces of the ac wings landing gears engine blocks etc.

The thing that gets me is a gentle 3 pt landing at around 50-70kmph explodes a plane even with a wide glide path that and touching wings low speeds taxing when someone spawns in front of you explodes both aircraft into nothing which is very very unrealistic.

As for janes wwii fighters i spent many hours just crashing in flyby view when getting bored of hunting deer watching the plane slide across the ground tearing off pieces, the sound of overstressing and metal sheering was terrific everything looked and sounded so wonderfull and it still does today.

Another thing is landing in janes was **** tough compaired to this game where we dont even need to land in a pattern just fly in front of runway at 700kmph+ yank stick and flop around a couple times bleed speed to 300kmph and land instantly, cfs series as well takeoffs and landing were much tougher, stability of wide landing gears and differential braking made ground handling much much better, having to use flaps, slow trottle or torque would send you off the runway and richmix to get off the ground to t/o hearing the gears engine wind and close doors shaking the ac when doors closed was great, and the manual gear cranks.

Back to the instant explosions I hope they happen less frequently and more fueltank fires happen with a quicker secondary explosion that tears off wings etc but does not explode the whole ac into nothing. I dont think it will happen in this game maybe a limitation of the game engine we dont have secondary explosions which cause more damage then the intial hits but maybe for bob.

another thing thats odd is some ac when of fire will explode into nothing in less then 5 seconds spitfire p40 mustang but others like the p38 190 bf110 me262 russian birds can be on fire for minutes and not kill the pilot and give them the chance to dive and instantly put the fires out the fires come back many minutes later.

Whats wierd is rather then diving when on fire pilots would climb to a higher alt which would put out the fire from lack of oxygen, in game we can just dive some ac it dont help any becuase they explode in less then 3 seconds after being on fire, others can burn for along time and instantly flame out

Amon26
02-27-2005, 11:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Whats wierd is rather then diving when on fire pilots would climb to a higher alt which would put out the fire from lack of oxygen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

huh, whenever I catch fire i usually nose downward, shut off my engine to starve the engine of gasoline, open my radiator flaps to full and try to blow as much wind into it to put it out and usually that works.

Ive tried pulling up before, but the fire seems to just linger around the engine and poof. plane confetti

AlGroover
02-28-2005, 02:39 AM
I haven't noticed the effect too often. When one silly (AI) boy in an Oscar wanted to go head to head with my Beaufighter, that exploded pretty good.

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-28-2005, 07:39 AM
After LS's statement, i really begin to wander if we are playing the same game.

LS Quote: "The thing that gets me is a gentle 3 pt landing at around 50-70kmph explodes a plane even with a wide glide path"

Wich plane can you land at that low speed? even the Gladiator will have series handling difficulties at that speed.

LS quote: "cfs series as well takeoffs and landing were much tougher"

OOWWW COME ON!!!! I did a complete pirouette in a P-47 when taking off in CFS3. not just taxing in a circle but, a complete pirouette, like a ballet dancer!!! indeed, this makes the take-offs much harder.

And about the explosions... I never ever witnessed any explosions wich did not have a good reason (being shot at, hitting the ground, catching bombblast) except maybe the P-40 in FB 1.0. That was rather a nice bug. There was a work-around for the combustable P-40, to the horror of many LW pilots I did encounter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
02-28-2005, 09:17 AM
The video of the B-17 gunners at that new ww2incolor website shows what presumably was a German fighter explode into a stunning fireball followed by a few training bits of debris falling away.

Not much left. I'm sure it can happen...we just don't have the stunning enough fireball.

Grisha7
02-28-2005, 10:28 AM
Perhaps we have become so used to this excellent game that we are starting to demand too much in terms of realism and immersion. There is only so much that the game engine can handle, it simply cannot replicate every single nuance and minutae of detail which exist in real air combat. I think that maybe some people play this game too much. It's like owning a copy of your favourite film - if you watch it over and over you will start to notice flaws and mistakes, and in the end the illusion is lost. Sorry for the poor analogy.

Anyway, I think Oleg and his team have done a fine job, it must be difficult trying to placate such a demanding community.

Stackhouse25th
03-01-2005, 11:57 AM
Ive played this game enough to recognize when the code will and wont let me blow up, other then when im engaged in combat where a 30mm shell or something may allow me to blow up.

My friend Griffon and I were on the the runway, when the nose of our planes contacted at less then 1KMH the plane suddenly flipped out turned around and then we contacted again and exploded, you would think a crushing effect or not necessarily an explosion would occur at that low contact speed.

I also want refuel rearm on the tarmac so you dont have to respawn EACH frigen time.

LeadSpitter_
03-01-2005, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
Ive played this game enough to recognize when the code will and wont let me blow up, other then when im engaged in combat where a 30mm shell or something may allow me to blow up.

My friend Griffon and I were on the the runway, when the nose of our planes contacted at less then 1KMH the plane suddenly flipped out turned around and then we contacted again and exploded, you would think a crushing effect or not necessarily an explosion would occur at that low contact speed.

I also want refuel rearm on the tarmac so you dont have to respawn EACH frigen time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here with the refuel rearm but not fix damage. Maybe have a specific hanger or pad we have to stay on for 5 seconds to rearm and refuel.

Funny thing is they say its not realistic and took 15-30 min to refuel and rearm but is hitting refly and magicly respawning realistic. I also would like to see them remove the refly button till pilots feet are on the ground. I really dont like the planes exploding instantly and is so fake, and not being able to watch a enemy shotdown on fire spiral down to the ground hit the ground and explode takes so much out of a wwii flight sim.

In here if a planes on fire it will explode in 2-10 second depending on which ac it is. Or instantly hit refly and disapear in front of our eyes.

Another thing is disapearing ai that dont stay on runways this is another thing takken away which i enjoyed watching after long offline missions, yeah maybe 1-2 ai would collide into eachother sometimes when taxiing on the ground but 10-20 b17s would all be lined up on the tarmac.

Whiners cry ai collide and now all of them disapear after one is on the ground which to me is much worse then seeing 1-2 ai colliding into each other.

Another thing I hate are the people who bail out early hit refly immediatly and disapear right as your bullets are 10m away from their plane.

that and using the bombsites on the he111 tb3 and b25 from 3000m line up targets on the spawnpad then simply disapear before the bombs hit which took you 25 min to get to their homebase.

People find an exploit and abuse it, this is what that Hart dreyer guy did in greatergreen, and many did it in warclouds when there was 1 deathkick, they knew they were about to be shot down being in a disadvantage bail esc refly within 2 seconds and disapear. That or either crash directly into the ground before being shot which does not count as a death.

LilHorse
03-01-2005, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Another thing is landing in janes was **** tough compaired to this game where we dont even need to land in a pattern just fly in front of runway at 700kmph+ yank stick and flop around a couple times bleed speed to 300kmph and land instantly, cfs series as well takeoffs and landing were much tougher, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always found T/O and landing to be much easier in CFS as compared to IL2. Even CFS2 when you learned that you had to keep the stick pulled into your lap was easy.

As for exploding planes, my experiance has been like the pics posted by plumps.

And as far as how often in happened IRL...I've read many stories where pilots claim planes just exploded after even short bursts of .50cal. And I mean German planes too. Anecdotal yes. But no statistics were kept as to the percentage of planes that just exploded versus other forms of damage/destruction.