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Mettyx
12-24-2011, 03:32 PM
I remember from the demo that any direct damage spell(lightning bolts, chain lightning, firebolt, fireball, firestorm, etc.) was a complete waste of ability points.

So, if you maxed magic power of the magic school tree, maxed prime magic power, bought highest magic power and blood artifacts(+8, +20%, +10%), would those spells still be completely useless in mid-to end game where any stack is above 80?

phaethornis
12-24-2011, 03:45 PM
Lightening spells are pretty damaging when used with multiple padogas form sanctuary castle(+15% damage per padoga).

Mettyx
12-24-2011, 03:55 PM
but I'm Haven...


It's so sad that this game doesn't give you a viable option to be a destruction mage if you
dedicate yourself to it, like in King's Bounty.

This is a real flaw that needs to be rebalanced.

phaethornis
12-24-2011, 04:25 PM
When you got maxed out one of magic trees, lets say it is fire, than i think your firebolt is stronger then your mage's strike. So when your other spells are cooling down it is more effective to use firebolt than hero's strike. Nevertheless it could be more powerful and used as your main weapon not just an addition.

Mettyx
12-24-2011, 04:54 PM
what about spells like immolation and meditation, would that make any difference on top of everything else I mentioned?

phaethornis
12-24-2011, 05:22 PM
I didn't try how this works, but it seems like a nice combo. So far i used hero as a support for my army. I think i will try some new builds focused at direct damage. Then I will post results. But i would be nice if someone who already tried this could tell us if this is worth trying.

hobo2
12-25-2011, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by phaethornis:
When you got maxed out one of magic trees, lets say it is fire, than i think your firebolt is stronger then your mage's strike. So when your other spells are cooling down it is more effective to use firebolt than hero's strike. Nevertheless it could be more powerful and used as your main weapon not just an addition.

Yeah, that's basically the problem. It's easy enough to do hundreds of damage with a direct damage attack, but who cares? You're spending skill points and mana to upgrade your basic attack. War Cries like Pressed Attack are in most cases a bigger boost to your basic attack and don't cost any mana.

When you do Pressed Attack, you get your basic attack two times (or more if you choose to link to a unit with good morale effects, cleave, or other action multipliers). And each time your attack goes off, it does more damage than if you had simply used it normally (although I have no idea what the formula actually is because the damage increase is undocumented). And that costs: zero mana.

On the flip side, Fire Bolt is a modest increase in damage on a one-time basis that actually does less damage if your target is an Inferno unit or a Sanctuary Unit benefiting from a Monk's Inner Eye effect (+20 Magic Defense is no joke). And it costs mana.

There is limited use for direct damage spells. Mostly Ice Bolt, because it robs the target of all their movement points for one turn unless they are Sanctuary units. There are a lot of circumstances in which spending your hero action to keep an enemy melee unit pinned in place for one round is worthwhile, and the fact that you're pumping in mana to that and doing some damage is pretty justifiable. Circle of Winter sounds like it would be good, but then you realize that instead of providing "frozen" (negate all movement points) it just applies "chilled" (minus one movement points), so it's pretty much useless. There are of course times when taking one movement point away from two units would buy you a whole turn, but this is so rare as to not be worth the skill points to have the option. Worth owning a scroll of it I suppose.

If you do a huge investment in spells, you can do about two thousand total damage with Chain Lightning. But even that is pretty ho-hum. For a lot less skill point investment, you can be handing out a huge damage increase with Storm Arrows. And Storm Arrows costs third as much and lasts multiple turns.

Direct Damage seems like it would only be useful early in campaign maps, where you start with a powerful character but don't have a powerful army to boost with Storm Arrows and Stone Skin. But the reality is that in those circumstances you're still better off with Conjuration. Making a block of Earth Elementals is just better for clearing out tough groups of neutrals or tushing enemy castles with a powerful caster hero.

There just isn't really a place for nukers in Heroes VI.

phaethornis
12-25-2011, 03:57 AM
Hmmm, so i think the only direct damage spell that is worth spending point is an implosion. On the other hand i found spells which hit multiple units annoying as I need to use mass heal/regen/drain instead of normal version if I want to win without or with only little causalities. But that can be just my lack of experience in this game.

Mettyx
12-25-2011, 01:58 PM
Immolation and meditation are not worth it since you can't learn an ability to caste twice per turn like you could in King's Bounty/Armored Princess.

Casting each turn is too precious of an opportunity to waste it on non-troop augmenting spell.

I really don't understand what is the point of direct damage spells in this game.

hermes_tri241
12-25-2011, 11:02 PM
They are far from useless now, I have just won 2 duels using magic heroes - all put into destruction (one, sanctuary ice magic vs stronghold, other inferno fire vs necropolis)

I was quite suprised myself.

For example, after meditation:
Fire storm - 2000+, fireball 3000+, circle of winter around 2000, watery grave 2500+. This goes down a bit with magic resistance, but still very very powerful. 3-4 cyclops every turn for example.and much more powerful then implosion or hero strikes

jigglefloyd
12-27-2011, 11:21 AM
The reality is no, sorry, a nuking strategy is never optimal if there will be a late game with huge creature stacks. Nothing you can do will make your nukes strong (relatively speaking) late game. Even if you use the available damage amplification combos, buff the crap out of your hero skills, and get some nice items, your nuking power will eventually cap, but creature stacks will continue to grow. Your nukes will kill fewer % of units as the game goes on after level 15-20 or so.

Nukes don't get stronger by %, they are fixed damage amplified by hero level and power in most cases, so they have a hard time scaling into late game with epic battles. They are best mid game, around level 15-20 when you have your reputation level maxed, magic power skills maxed, access to high level spells, and a few good magic boosting items. So Blood-Magic is ok for small map skirmishes and some standard duels with fewer creatures.

If you do go Magic-Blood be sure to treat your units as fodder. The longer they survive the more nukes you can dish out. Attack with your archers and non-retaliation units and defend with the rest.

fajar_a_n
12-27-2011, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by hermes_tri241:
For example, after meditation:
Fire storm - 2000+, fireball 3000+, circle of winter around 2000, watery grave 2500+.

Now compare that with flawless assault on cerberus (which guarantees max damage, about twice of their min damage), or inner fire (about +50% might damage), or storm arrows on archers (no damage penalty, about +30% air damage). They cost no or small amount of mana, and can easily give 10k+ extra damage per turn (depending on how big your stack is).

Mettyx
12-28-2011, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by fajar_a_n:

Now compare that with flawless assault on cerberus (which guarantees max damage, about twice of their min damage), or inner fire (about +50% might damage), or storm arrows on archers (no damage penalty, about +30% air damage). They cost no or small amount of mana, and can easily give 10k+ extra damage per turn (depending on how big your stack is).

To be comparable you would have to have a very large end-game army, which in most of the gameplay time you don't have.

Nightmus
12-28-2011, 01:21 AM
I just won a battle with equally developed 22 lvl Sanctuary/Blood/Magic hero as Necropolis/Blood/Magic. Used Mass agony (+bonus from hero specialization), Meditation, then Word of Darkness (not sure about an actual spell name - Necro blood lvl2 ability). In a tooltip it was stated to deal ~3450 damage at 55 spellpower. Won the battle hands down!

I guess the Meditation + Word of Darkness is great as the latter is restricted to 1 cast per battle and does so much damage and raises undead.

jigglefloyd
12-28-2011, 08:18 AM
There will be examples here and there that you can discuss, and your necro combo is actually one of the best out there at the moment because they both hit every creature and do tons of damage. But generally speaking the numbers speak for themselves. Nukes cap creatures don't. The battle that you pointed out could have gone differently if your opponent went a smarter build or played better in the combat.

It doesn't take super long to get to the point where a storm arrows, inner fire, puppet master, or frenzy will do far more damage via large creature size compared to nukes, even mass ones.

Klydon
12-28-2011, 10:10 AM
Like anything, nukes are situational. VI is no different from the other Heroes series in that they are not going to crush stacks in the late game on their own.

I personally prefer to use a combo of creature support spells and/or spells to lock down an enemy stack. I also look to preserve my own force as well.

Having said all that, nukes do have their place in the early to mid game when creature stacks are not as big or there are some issues. Having a variety to choose from allows a player to best match up what nukes they have available to what they are fighting trying to take advantage of match ups (using lighting vs sanctuary as an example because air based spells do more damage).

Sometimes you also have enemy stacks you don't want your main creatures attacking (usually ones with damage shields, etc). Using either summoned creatures or nukes is a way to deal with them.