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Estocade85
11-01-2005, 09:48 AM
I'm starting to play around in some of the full real servers on HL (yes I'm a noob) and I usually fly the P-51D. What engagement envelope I should fly in? I know that the mustang normally flew at high altitudes, but past 5000m I don't see anything on the deck so I can't really dive on somebody and a few minutes later I usually get bounced by a deep-space TA-152. So is it fly super high or fly super low? Need help because I'm getting aggravated lol! Thx

ColoradoBBQ
11-01-2005, 11:14 AM
Fast, very fast, and Supa-fast is the only way to combat in a P-51. The P-51 can engage around 2000 to 4000 meters as long as you employ high energy manuevers and keep the rudder centered. It takes some good situational awareness, good team tactics, and some skill to evade a bandit diving on your six.

SithSpeeder
11-01-2005, 12:04 PM
CObbq is spot on.

Just know (based on WarClouds server stats, 20 planes in the planeset) that the P-51 has the second worst kill-to-death ratio at 0.5 (only ahead of the P-38L Late at 0.38). You WILL get killed more often flying the P-51D than nearly any other plane in rooms such as these and achieve less kills with it.

That being said, it is still a fun challenge to learn to fly and when you do get success with it, it will feel good. You need wingmen who will cover you and each other on comms to even have a remote hope of surviving.

Hope that helps.

* _54th_Speeder *

HayateAce
11-01-2005, 02:26 PM
The P51 in this game has very little resemblance to the combat capability of the real thing. Wait for the next generations SIM for any hope of a realistic P51.

Sharpe26
11-01-2005, 03:04 PM
meh, I think it requires a bit more tweaking still, perhaps a look the effect of the fuel loading in the fm and, if it isn't that perhaps logging more flighttime in learning to understand how the P51 really functioned may help

(mind you, not that I know anything about )

ImpStarDuece
11-01-2005, 03:15 PM
Stay fast.

The P-51 may have all the looks of a turn 'n burner, but its not one.

The Mustang had very heavy airframe for the relative output of its powerplant, but it had a very efficient wing design and low drag fuselag to compensate. I have always felt that USAAF aircraft were generally a little portly compared to their opponents.

The P-51 accelerates relatively slowley and climbs relatively poorly compared to most other planes you will run into online, the FockWulfs excluded. Best climbs are achieved at around 275-300 kph, a little faster than most opponents. So unless you ave an obvious positional advantage, you don't want to enter the slow speed envelope. If you have to escape, shallow climbs at speeds above 300 kph seem to work.

It can be reliable out-turned at low speeds by the Bf-109 but turns better at higher speeds, is roughly equal in a SUSTAINED turn to a Fw-190D at all speed regiemes (better slightly at low speed, worse slighly at high speed), and is superior to the FW-190A serise, with the difference being most noticible at lower speeds (350 kph). Watch the instantaneous turn on the FWs though, for the first 90 or so degrees of the turn they can eat almost anything alive.

If you do want to get into a turn fight the Mustangs combat flaps are your friends. They drop both the turn time and the best turning speed. Meaning that you can now hope to engage a little slower, turn a little sharper and hopefully not stall out. If speed is not important (say your engaging a slower but much more manouverable plane), then they can be used to your advantage.

In terms of speed the Mustang performs worst relative to its common opponents between 0-1500m and 4000-6000m.

On the deck the weight of the Mustang is the main drawback. The heavier air means the laminar flow wing of the P-51 is not nearly at peak efficiency, compared to other altitudes. At high altitudes the P-51s large laminar flow wing is relatively more efficient than its opponents. The wing had some pretty sever stall characteristics in real life, and a nasty tendency to want to roll over onto its back.

Between 4000-6000m the supercharger is switching stages. The P-51 actually looses about 10-20 kph at these heights, which puts it back a few paces compared to LW fighters. Above 6500m that speed is regained and above 7000m, the P-51 is really only threatned by the Bf-109K4 and G-10 in terms of speed.

The Ta-152 deserves a special category, as it is basically a superior plane to the P-51D; better firepower, similar speeds at combat alts, better rate of turn, similarly good visibility. Its one of the few planes that the P-51 should stall fight at low altitudes, mostly because the P-51D turns slightly better below about 350 kph and has a small speed advantage at low alts.

Waldo.Pepper
11-01-2005, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
The P51 in this game has very little resemblance to the combat capability of the real thing. Wait for the next generations SIM for any hope of a realistic P51.

In the skies of Europe how many P-51's were there for every enemy plane? (6? 8? 10?)

Now make a server with those odds and you'll see why the P-51 was so effective historicaly.

Estocade85
11-01-2005, 06:42 PM
Thanks for the help guys, really interesting stuff! I'm going to check it out right now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another question:
Since you mentioned that the number one critical point is to maintain high speed, should I sacrifice it for alt advantage?

I mean, when I bank the plane and I see a bandit under me, I dive on it, make a pass them climb up very steeply to regain (almost) my starting alt. Then I fly level to regain some speed and I start over gain. Should I do this? When I regain my alt I'm usually doing 350kph or a bit less if I push it.

SithSpeeder
11-02-2005, 06:43 AM
when I bank the plane and I see a bandit under me, I dive on it, make a pass them climb up very steeply to regain (almost) my starting alt. Then I fly level to regain some speed and I start over gain. Should I do this? Only if before you started the bank, you've checked co-alt and above you to verify that there are NO bogeys or bandits (i.e., only friendlies or clear skies) all around you.

WOLFMondo
11-02-2005, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
CObbq is spot on.

Just know (based on WarClouds server stats, 20 planes in the planeset) that the P-51 has the second worst kill-to-death ratio at 0.5 (only ahead of the P-38L Late at 0.38). You WILL get killed more often flying the P-51D than nearly any other plane in rooms such as these and achieve less kills with it.

That being said, it is still a fun challenge to learn to fly and when you do get success with it, it will feel good. You need wingmen who will cover you and each other on comms to even have a remote hope of surviving.

Hope that helps.

* _54th_Speeder *

Cause only a very few P51 flyers don't spend there time turning and burning on the deck, making hard manouvers or following Luftties back over the border and back to base!!

Its so very rare to see a P51D at 20,000+ft where they shine.

mynameisroland
11-02-2005, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
The P51 in this game has very little resemblance to the combat capability of the real thing. Wait for the next generations SIM for any hope of a realistic P51.

What expertise do you bring to the subject of the P51 performing at 8000ft altitude against Fw 190 D9's and Me 109 K4's at numercial parity?

Oh I forgot the P51 was the best low altitude fighter of the war wasnt it ?

Stick to where the P51 fought , use realistic tactics, out number your enemy , fly against noobs. That ought to be REALISTIC enough for you Hayate.

lrrp22
11-02-2005, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Stick to where the P51 fought , use realistic tactics, out number your enemy , fly against noobs. That ought to be REALISTIC enough for you Hayate.

You mean 0 ft to 35,000 ft? Against the Luftwaffe, turn fighting was typical. Despite what many of you want to believe, the P-51 was not limited to single pass bounces of hopelessly outnumbered Nachwuchs at 25,000 ft. the P-51 was a very agile and pleasant airplane to fly and fight- at all altitudes.

Contrary to the conventional wisdom here, the P-51 was not just a glass-jawed version of the Thunderbolt with weaker armament.

.

Estocade85
11-02-2005, 10:28 AM
Ok before this goes any further:

This thread is about tips and hints concerning the IN-GAME P-51, regardless of whether or not you think it's accuratly modeled.

For those of you who wants to discuss RL FM, please take it elsewhere, as they're are a pletora of similar P-51 discussions and I don't see why you should ruin this one.

Cheers,

mynameisroland
11-02-2005, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Stick to where the P51 fought , use realistic tactics, out number your enemy , fly against noobs. That ought to be REALISTIC enough for you Hayate.

You mean 0 ft to 35,000 ft? Against the Luftwaffe, turn fighting was typical. Despite what many of you want to believe, the P-51 was not limited to single pass bounces of hopelessly outnumbered Nachwuchs at 25,000 ft. the P-51 was a very agile and pleasant airplane to fly and fight- at all altitudes.

Contrary to the conventional wisdom here, the P-51 was not just a glass-jawed version of the Thunderbolt with weaker armament.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well some pilots here do fine in the P51 myself included. For those of you who cant get the P51 to yield results I suggest less whine and more practice.

"Against the Luftwaffe turn fighting was typical" Yes I believe the Poles tried it in their P.11's. Sorry to challenge your world on WW2 and USAAF aircraft in particular but the Mustang and Thunderbolt in particular were hardly turn fighters.

"P-51 was a very agile and pleasant airplane to fly and fight- at all altitudes." No you are wrong. The P51 was not very agile, it was also a pig to fly when loaded with fuel and proved a challenge to its pilots.

Try out turning Bf 109's at 500ft all day long and you'll never win. Is that the sim's fault? the aircrafts fault? or the pilots fault?

mynameisroland
11-02-2005, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Estocade85:
Ok before this goes any further:

This thread is about tips and hints concerning the IN-GAME P-51, regardless of whether or not you think it's accuratly modeled.

For those of you who wants to discuss RL FM, please take it elsewhere, as they're are a pletora of similar P-51 discussions and I don't see why you should ruin this one.

Cheers,

Good post

The advice given in my posts is applicable in game. If you fly fast at speeds of over 500km/h and stay above 4000m (Initially !) you will do very well. Dont expect explosions from every aircraft you hit or dewings all you need is a nice little oil trail or a control surface damaged and that is a mission kill.

see this topic for advice too

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/4141040373

lrrp22
11-02-2005, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Well some pilots here do fine in the P51 myself included. For those of you who cant get the P51 to yield results I suggest less whine and more practice.

"Against the Luftwaffe turn fighting was typical" Yes I believe the Poles tried it in their P.11's. Sorry to challenge your world on WW2 and USAAF aircraft in particular but the Mustang and Thunderbolt in particular were hardly turn fighters.

"P-51 was a very agile and pleasant airplane to fly and fight- at all altitudes." No you are wrong. The P51 was not very agile, it was also a pig to fly when loaded with fuel and proved a challenge to its pilots.

Try out turning Bf 109's at 500ft all day long and you'll never win. Is that the sim's fault? the aircrafts fault? or the pilots fault?


Please don't confuse the P-51 in-game with the P-51 that fought in WWII. Nor should you confuse a P-51 carrying 2 1/2 times more internal fuel than the 109 with a P-51 at fighting weight.


Not agile? Your comments indicate that you actually know very little about how the P-51 was used against the Luftwaffe. Again, it was no P-47. Even a cursory glance at the two types should make that clear.


.

Vipez-
11-02-2005, 11:44 AM
I just can't believe it. This plane is not even porked in away, it is as fast as it's supposed to, outdives the opponents, good guns, realistic climbrate, and it's 5th topic tonight i read about p51 beeing undermodelled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . Seriosly, P51D is not BAD in the game..Personally I prefer it over 109K4 and Dora these days.. IT IS extremely safe plane to fly in.. It is extremely manouvarable at high speeds, it is extremely good diver (just careful not to break ur wings by pulling too fast with the stick) , good weapons, excelent all-around-visibility.I never had problems disengaging from the battle in Warclouds. P51D outturns Dora (though turning circles are very close), but high alt is where Dora can't keep up with the P51D. BElow 2000m Dora will outrun from the Mustang, but above 4000 it's the other way around.. 109K4 can cause you some headache, but you allways can outdive from him, and outrun him on sealevel. You simply have to fly it like you would fly planes like P47, FW190.. Just don't turn so you bleed your energy, when you have more nimble plane behind you..

blah..

StellarRat
11-02-2005, 11:54 AM
Between 4000m and 7000m the P-51 is more than a match for any Axis plane except possibly the TA-152 and, of course, the ME-262. You just have to stay high and fast. You can B and Z into lower altitudes as long as you go right back up to at least 4000. I fly it pretty much the same as the P-47, but a little lower.

lrrp22
11-02-2005, 12:02 PM
Vipez,

Like most of the sensible posters here, I really don't think the P-51 is 'porked', although I don't entirely agree regarding relative dive capabilities. What I object to is the endless drivel on these boards that says the P-51 is helpless at anything other than 400 mph and 25,000 ft. The numbers and the history simply don't support that contention.

The P-51 sure as hell didn't win the war, but it was a fearsome fighter that was a far more capable dogfighter than many here would like to admit.



Originally posted by Vipez-:
I just can't believe it. This plane is not even porked in away, it is as fast as it's supposed to, outdives the opponents, good guns, realistic climbrate, and it's 5th topic tonight i read about p51 beeing undermodelled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . Seriosly, P51D is not BAD in the game..Personally I prefer it over 109K4 and Dora these days.. IT IS extremely safe plane to fly in.. It is extremely manouvarable at high speeds, it is extremely good diver (just careful not to break ur wings by pulling too fast with the stick) , good weapons, excelent all-around-visibility.I never had problems disengaging from the battle in Warclouds. P51D outturns Dora (though turning circles are very close), but high alt is where Dora can't keep up with the P51D. BElow 2000m Dora will outrun from the Mustang, but above 4000 it's the other way around.. 109K4 can cause you some headache, but you allways can outdive from him, and outrun him on sealevel. You simply have to fly it like you would fly planes like P47, FW190.. Just don't turn so you bleed your energy, when you have more nimble plane behind you..

blah..

Airmail109
11-02-2005, 03:20 PM
I find the Mustand MKIII to be the best allied plane in the game, with its speed you can simply pick and choose the engagements you want to get into. Always energy fight with it. I almost always attack only when I have the advantage. This way I have shot down more and survived longer than I would have done in any other plane. Its also a very effective 190D killer. I have a personall hatred of 190Ds.... I hunt them down.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

mynameisroland
11-03-2005, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Well some pilots here do fine in the P51 myself included. For those of you who cant get the P51 to yield results I suggest less whine and more practice.

"Against the Luftwaffe turn fighting was typical" Yes I believe the Poles tried it in their P.11's. Sorry to challenge your world on WW2 and USAAF aircraft in particular but the Mustang and Thunderbolt in particular were hardly turn fighters.

"P-51 was a very agile and pleasant airplane to fly and fight- at all altitudes." No you are wrong. The P51 was not very agile, it was also a pig to fly when loaded with fuel and proved a challenge to its pilots.

Try out turning Bf 109's at 500ft all day long and you'll never win. Is that the sim's fault? the aircrafts fault? or the pilots fault?


"Please don't confuse the P-51 in-game with the P-51 that fought in WWII. Nor should you confuse a P-51 carrying 2 1/2 times more internal fuel than the 109 with a P-51 at fighting weight. "

The Mustang was not a dogfighter. Carrying 2 1/2 times the fuel of a 109... as we agree this detracts from the Mustangs legendary turn fight prowess. At fighting weight ( you decide how much fuel you want to carry while still being able to rtb .. lets say 60% and maybe 35% for the 109. Now what are the power to weight ratios
for each fighter and relative wing loadings at these weights> Then we could look at climb rates, acceleration figures ect

"Not agile? Your comments indicate that you actually know very little about how the P-51 was used against the Luftwaffe. Again, it was no P-47. Even a cursory glance at the two types should make that clear."

Please enlighten me as to just how the P51 was used against the Luftwaffe. I am dying to hear of how it engaged co E co alt and out turned ,out climbed and generally out manuvered all fighters it fought. GEE THE MUSTANG IS SMALLER THAN THE P47 what d ya know? Did ya also know the Mustang was just a bit heavier than the 190 and a whole lot heavier than the 109. Its is physically larger than every other single engined non US prop fighter with the exception of the Tempest but then seeing as that could pump out near 3000hp compared to 1700hp in emergency power it can be forgiven for being large.
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

geetarman
11-03-2005, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
The P51 in this game has very little resemblance to the combat capability of the real thing. Wait for the next generations SIM for any hope of a realistic P51.

In the skies of Europe how many P-51's were there for every enemy plane? (6? 8? 10?)

Now make a server with those odds and you'll see why the P-51 was so effective historicaly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not many from Jan 1944 through the early summer of 1944 when they dealt the luft boys some serious damage. Just google for the opinion of most German pilots of the Mustang. 'Nuff said.

marc_hawkins
11-03-2005, 07:40 AM
Mind you, another (small factor) in the kill ratio of ponys may be it being a very popular plane in the public conciousness and pretty to boot, It's only human nature that somebody'd wanna shoot it down if they had the choice of targets....

lrrp22
11-03-2005, 12:02 PM
Roland,

Due yourself a favor and actually read some USAAF unit histories. Turn fighting 109's and 190's was typical and engaged-in without reservation.

Obviously, the 109 will typically outclimb and out accelerate the Mustang at lower speeds. Beyond that, they are pretty evenly matched with the P-51 holding some distinct advantages. The Fw 190A is mostly outperformed by the P-51. It took the D-9 to even the odds.

You need to see past your antipathy for the "Bloated Ally" (your words) and see things as they really were, not as you'd like them to be.




Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Well some pilots here do fine in the P51 myself included. For those of you who cant get the P51 to yield results I suggest less whine and more practice.

"Against the Luftwaffe turn fighting was typical" Yes I believe the Poles tried it in their P.11's. Sorry to challenge your world on WW2 and USAAF aircraft in particular but the Mustang and Thunderbolt in particular were hardly turn fighters.

"P-51 was a very agile and pleasant airplane to fly and fight- at all altitudes." No you are wrong. The P51 was not very agile, it was also a pig to fly when loaded with fuel and proved a challenge to its pilots.

Try out turning Bf 109's at 500ft all day long and you'll never win. Is that the sim's fault? the aircrafts fault? or the pilots fault?


"Please don't confuse the P-51 in-game with the P-51 that fought in WWII. Nor should you confuse a P-51 carrying 2 1/2 times more internal fuel than the 109 with a P-51 at fighting weight. "

The Mustang was not a dogfighter. Carrying 2 1/2 times the fuel of a 109... as we agree this detracts from the Mustangs legendary turn fight prowess. At fighting weight ( you decide how much fuel you want to carry while still being able to rtb .. lets say 60% and maybe 35% for the 109. Now what are the power to weight ratios
for each fighter and relative wing loadings at these weights> Then we could look at climb rates, acceleration figures ect

"Not agile? Your comments indicate that you actually know very little about how the P-51 was used against the Luftwaffe. Again, it was no P-47. Even a cursory glance at the two types should make that clear."

Please enlighten me as to just how the P51 was used against the Luftwaffe. I am dying to hear of how it engaged co E co alt and out turned ,out climbed and generally out manuvered all fighters it fought. GEE THE MUSTANG IS SMALLER THAN THE P47 what d ya know? Did ya also know the Mustang was just a bit heavier than the 190 and a whole lot heavier than the 109. Its is physically larger than every other single engined non US prop fighter with the exception of the Tempest but then seeing as that could pump out near 3000hp compared to 1700hp in emergency power it can be forgiven for being large.
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>