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View Full Version : Errors in the cockpits of the Macchi C.202/205



Rickustyit
02-12-2006, 11:08 AM
First of all, I must say that I am super-happy about the new Macchi C.20X. They were long missed and are a great addition to an already great game.

While almost always flying the C.202 in a Dynamic Campaign, I found out that the forward view inside the cockpit is really bad.
The two big pillars in front are so close to each other it's very difficult to aim , and especially to follow, an enemy airplane.
So I went searching for a good picture of the interior of the real plane...
I found out that the two pillars are much more distanced by each others. In fact, the forward view was more wide and clear.

The rest of the cockpit is awesome, there's no need to say that.

Could this error be addressed in a future patch?

Here are the pictures:

Cockpit view of the in-game Macchi C.205
http://www.pacific-fighters.com/ss/MC205_cockpit1.jpg

Cockpit view of a real C.202
http://digilander.libero.it/enniotarantola/TarantolaEnnio/Modellismo/C202RealeTrotta06.gif

Cheers,
Rick

Dash_C.
02-12-2006, 11:17 AM
I don't know what is correct, but I wouldn't get your hopes up on a cockpit fix, as they require almost a complete redesign of the cockpit and to date, I believe there has only been one fairly large correction made to an aircraft cockpit ever.

GreyBeast
02-12-2006, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Dash_C.:
...and to date, I believe there has only been one fairly large correction made to an aircraft cockpit ever.

Really? What was that?

hobnail
02-12-2006, 02:08 PM
The rear wall on the Beau cockpit? or does that make two changes?

TheGozr
02-12-2006, 03:31 PM
welcome to the already very old thread fw190's yak's etc.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

major_setback
02-12-2006, 04:03 PM
Aside from that question: This site has some great details of the MC 205s construction:

http://www.museoscienza.org/aereo/mc205.html

example:

http://www.museoscienza.org/aereo/img/205_dis_5.gif

http://www.museoscienza.org/aereo/img/205_dis_1.gif

Back on topic. From another site:

This is an MC 200 !!! by the way.

http://ipmslondon.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/c20011.jpg

Stigler_9_JG52
02-12-2006, 04:10 PM
If the FW190 pit is any indication, please base your chance of a successful resolution to this to have about the same chance as a slushy snowball on about the seventh plane of Hades.

major_setback
02-12-2006, 04:20 PM
MC 205:

http://www.amivirtual.com/_images/Mc_205_cockpit.jpg

http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Italy/images/MC205-Aermacchi-cockpit.jpg

Are you sure that that picture isn't a Folgore 202 rather than the Veltro 205?


This is a Folgore I think (according to the site) and looks like your picture:

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=MC+205+cockpit/v=2/SID=e/l=IVI/SIG=12kmm77s7/EXP=1139872234/*-http%3A//actis.dk/retro/Italien/Macchi/Billeder/FolgoreCockpit.jpg

your picture:
http://digilander.libero.it/enniotarantola/TarantolaEnnio/Modellismo/C202RealeTrotta06.gif

BfHeFwMe
02-12-2006, 04:39 PM
Exactly which posts is he talking about, the ones on the hood? If that's the case it's not a cockpit problem.

major_setback
02-12-2006, 05:09 PM
I think he means the ones at the side of the front 'windshield' glass.

T_O_A_D
02-12-2006, 06:11 PM
I just want to know where the fuel gauge is, and if it works.

I spent a bit of time trying to translate the words on the dash the othernight with no luck.

vocatx
02-12-2006, 09:08 PM
TOAD, somewhere I saw a screenshot labeling some of the guages in this aircraft. I just can't remember where it was. I believe that the fuel guage is located along the right hand side of the 'pit, just below the canopy rail. It is a long indicator which shows the amount of fuel tail down and in flying attitude, similar to the Spitfire.

You might locate this indicator, then try spawning in with differing fuel loads to work it out.

MLudner
02-12-2006, 09:51 PM
The problem I found was that the compass in the 205 is off by 90 degrees - either that or the map and sun are off 90 degrees.

Otherwise, I love that plane. That glitch just makes navigating more interesting.

danjama
02-12-2006, 09:56 PM
If thats a pic of the pit i think its modelled pretty well.

dugong
02-12-2006, 10:04 PM
They are different views. The photo is taken from a few feet back at an elevated position. The in game shot is taken at head level from the cockpit.

An airplane's cockpit is a very small space. The windscreen supports are close together and at sharp angles. As a result, a slight shift in position will drastically affect view from within the cockpit.

Rickustyit
02-13-2006, 01:42 AM
Major setback, yes that picture was of a C.202 , not a veltro.

The cockpits of the C.202 and the C.205 in the game have the same front-pillars.
You can see clearly in the picture of the C.202 you attached that there is quite a distance between the two pillars.
Looking well, the gunsight has a clear view of the outside frontal view, while in-game the right and right-low part of the gunsight is obstructed by the right pillar.
I don't know how to post here a picture, do you know where can I save them?
However you can see that in the game.

I attach here the 2 pictures to compare them.

http://actis.dk/retro/Italien/Macchi/Billeder/FolgoreCockpit.jpg

http://www.pacific-fighters.com/ss/MC205_cockpit1.jpg

Unfortunately this is the C.205.
However in the game, it looks like the C.202 and C.205 have the same front view.
Note the distance between the two pillars.
In the real picture, they are much more wider.

Toad, the fuel gauge in the C.202 is on the left-low panel , just under the RPM gauge, and it works.
In the C.205 it's on the right of the cockpit, and it's a long bar just under the right canopy.
In the C.200 it's on the right-low part of the cockpit, it's small and it has red letters and numbers (I think there was a link about this, as I didn't find them in the C.200 and 205 too).

I must say again that these cockpits look beautiful .

Cheers,
Rick

major_setback
02-13-2006, 07:00 AM
I'll post these even if I think they confuse the issue more than anything...MC 205 (First) and MC 202:

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mc205/mc205-1.gif
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mc202/mc202-1.gif

MC202:

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mc202/mc202-2.gif

MC202:

http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia1/MC202-26.jpg


MC 200 windshield:

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mc200/mc200-10.jpg

MC200:

http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia1/MC200-16.jpg

MC202:
http://www.ottocubano.com/images/MUSEO%20VIGNA%20DI%20VALLE/DSC05871.JPG

MC 205:
http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia1/MC205V-16.jpg

F0_Dark_P
02-13-2006, 07:25 AM
sorry if i steal the thread from you Rickustyit
but the crosshair on your pic, that one lookes smaler then the one i have in my game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif , for me the crosshair fills up the entire reflector plate

can you make the crosshairs smaler to fit it better?!

Willey
02-13-2006, 07:38 AM
That's because it's a beta screenshot. The pillar obscuring the gunsight is also thinner in the release version, IIRC.

Rickustyit
02-13-2006, 07:44 AM
great pics Major!

This one is very interesting...

http://www.ottocubano.com/images/MUSEO%20VIGNA%20DI%20VALLE/DSC05871.JPG

It really appears that these 2 pillars are really wider from each others than the ones we have in game.
Actually this picture of a C.202 cockpit is rather "spitfireish"...
In the game, with the C.202, the gunsight is partially obstructed by the right pillar when aiming through... Try to see it.

F0_Dark_P: I wish I could! I attached that picture from the main www.pacificfighters.com (http://www.pacificfighters.com) website.
I suppose they changed it in the beta.
However you can even change your gunsight in the C.205, try ctrl-D.

T_O_A_D
02-13-2006, 07:57 AM
Thanks guys for the fuelgauge, insite http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

telsono
02-13-2006, 10:37 AM
When I get home today I'll check my references as to cockpits of the C.202 and C.205. In the case of the C.202 the instrument panel did evolve through the different series as did other equipment. The series differences are based upon both, improvements in the aircraft such as pilot armor and armored glass and also different manufacturers; Breda and SIAI. Differnces in the camoflage patterns are the most obvious difference especially with the chestnut/yellow ochre based top camoflage patterns.

Just note the location for the venturi tube, on the early C.202's it was located just below the cockpit then it was moved to the bottom of the fuselage in from of the radiator. Not having my material handy, I think I recall that this change was done in Series VII.

One thing that I found interesting is that the radio mast was varnished wood in color and NOT in the base camo color. A light colored wood would tend to resemble the chestnut/yellow ochre base.

EJGrOst_Caspar
02-13-2006, 05:03 PM
Mates! Where have you been one year ago, when we where forced to finish these cockpits? Nice references, that we didn't have.
We got know about the wrong size of the front window too late (MC.202 cockpit was sent to 1C a month ago and already in engine). Deadline was near or already over. There was no possibility to change anything anymore - and its still that way. Sorry. I hope you can live with it as it is now.

(BTW: instead the pillars/bars in MC.205 are too narrow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif )

MLudner
02-13-2006, 05:06 PM
You worked on those? Cool. I like them.

Just to let you know; the 205's compass shows 90 degrees off of actual heading.

Rickustyit
02-14-2006, 02:31 AM
Hi Caspar,
damn , so I noticed that right.
Too bad, but we can of course live with that Caspar, as the rest of the cockpit looks stunning. Great job!

What do you mean by "Instead the pillars in MC.205 are too narrow"? Aren't they the same as the C.202?

One other thing: there is a little black "tab" below the main cockpit, where I can barely read something like "IL2 is better than Pacifig Fighters"... or something like that...
What is it?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers,
Rick

major_setback
02-14-2006, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by EJGrOst_Caspar:
Mates! Where have you been one year ago, when we where forced to finish these cockpits? Nice references, that we didn't have.
We got know about the wrong size of the front window too late (MC.202 cockpit was sent to 1C a month ago and already in engine). Deadline was near or already over. There was no possibility to change anything anymore - and its still that way. Sorry. I hope you can live with it as it is now.

(BTW: instead the pillars/bars in MC.205 are too narrow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif )

Well done! Good work on the cockpit, don't worry about such a minor fault (if I dare to call it that).

telsono
02-14-2006, 02:36 PM
Caspar,

If I had known you needed references I could have supplied you some. Knowing that there were variations of the cockpit details from series to series, I, myself, am not too picky on the results that you have done. On the other hand, I love it!
I understand also you had to set the cockpit detail to a certain standard. At home I have at least ten references to the Macchi Castoldi fighter aircraft. For on thing I need to upgrade my understanding of Italian to read Nino's book on the C.205 and other "5 series" fighters. I have all three volumes of Nino's books on the "5 series" aircraft signed by the author. This was a lucky find in a used book store.

EJGrOst_Caspar
02-14-2006, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Rickustyit:

What do you mean by "Instead the pillars in MC.205 are too narrow"? Aren't they the same as the C.202?


No, MC.205 got a armored windshield, so its frame would make the bars wider. But already in Mc.200 these bars are quite narrow if I compare to reference pics.



One other thing: there is a little black "tab" below the main cockpit, where I can barely read something like "IL2 is better than Pacifig Fighters"... or something like that...
What is it?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Uhm, what do you mean? I always had to write italian texts, although I cannot understand one word... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rickustyit
02-15-2006, 02:36 AM
Caspar, one thing...
The image projected on the reflection gunsight really looks too big to me, compared to other pictures I have seen.
Can you give us your references for that?

I think that the reticle in the G.50 and C.R.42 is more realistic.

Also, why the view in the C.200 the pilots is sitting much more "forward" and "lower" than the ones in the C.202 and C.205?
Otherwise the cockpit of the C.200 seems really perfect.
Look here:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/6369/mc200russia1941a4gc.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mc200russia1941a4gc.jpg)

The pilot had a clear lateral view in real life. Those two large lateral "things" on the cockpit really are a pain when fighting. Lateral view is very obstructed. In reality, the pilot's view was better than that.

The front pillars of the C.200 seems alright though
http://ipmslondon.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/c20011.jpg

These two minor problems could be addressed in a patch I think, as the model won't be touched at all.
It's a pleasure to fly these planes though , just for the interiors.
I'm kinda happy that the Macchi showed up so late, as we really have gorgeous models instead of those ... worse looking cockpits. (there is a thread about a P47 somewhere...) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Cheers,
Rick

Cippacometa
02-15-2006, 02:56 AM
Nobody has mentioned yet that compass doesn't work, or at least it works but it's about 250? offset.

Dunkelgrun
02-15-2006, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by Cippacometa:
Nobody has mentioned yet that compass doesn't work, or at least it works but it's about 250? offset.

Yes they have. Read the entire thread.

As an extra to the the IL2/PF label, Caspar has 'signed' his work with a little nameplate in the cockpit by your left shoulder.
The Do335 has one too.

Cheers!

Cippacometa
02-15-2006, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cippacometa:
Nobody has mentioned yet that compass doesn't work, or at least it works but it's about 250? offset.

Yes they have. Read the entire thread.

Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooops! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
Sorry, I had missed that post!
Regarding gauges, they all seem to work.
To answer to the guy(s) who asked what they are and if they work (MC.205):

O (left one) = Olio = Oil pressure, seems to work
O (right one, hidden by the MG charger lever) = Olio (temperature), can't see if it works
B = Benzina = Gasoline (fuel level), it works
A = Acqua = Water (coolant temperature), it works

My 2 cents!

EJGrOst_Caspar
02-15-2006, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by Rickustyit:

The image projected on the reflection gunsight really looks too big to me, compared to other pictures I have seen.
Can you give us your references for that?

I think that the reticle in the G.50 and C.R.42 is more realistic.




Also, why the view in the C.200 the pilots is sitting much more "forward" and "lower" than the ones in the C.202 and C.205?
Otherwise the cockpit of the C.200 seems really perfect.
Look here:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/6369/mc200russia1941a4gc.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mc200russia1941a4gc.jpg)

The pilot had a clear lateral view in real life. Those two large lateral "things" on the cockpit really are a pain when fighting. Lateral view is very obstructed. In reality, the pilot's view was better than that.




I'm kinda happy that the Macchi showed up so late, as we really have gorgeous models instead of those ... worse looking cockpits. (there is a thread about a P47 somewhere...)

1. We are not resposible for reticle size - it was set by 1C Maddox. Although I think G.50s and Cr.42 reticles have wrong size too.

2. We are not responsible for virtual head positions. It was set by 1C Maddox.

3. The 'Macchi-Cockpit-Project' was started in November 2004 with MC.202 and ended in March/April 2005 with MC.200. So these are not the newest models. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW: Check PMs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif