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View Full Version : Machiavelli's Role?



Xanatos2007
10-18-2009, 11:40 PM
As some/most of you may know, Niccolo Machiavelli is best known for his "notorious" book The Prince, which is basically an Art of War equivalent on how to capture a state and manage a kingdom (just got it, havn't read that far through it yet). It basically teaches you how to be an efficient ruler. Machiavelli is a featured character in ACII, and we know that he is an ally of Ezio. So what's his involvement exactly? Leonardo creates Ezio's fancy gadgets, Mario teaches Ezio new fighting moves, Antonio teaches you new Parkour moves, and with the new economic system where Ezio can earn money from his city I was thinking that Machiavelli would offer training tips on how to manage your city efficiently. I recall reading somewhere that Ezio would become allies with the Medici family later on in the game (Machiavelli wrote The Prince for Lorenzo de' Medici), so maybe we meet Machiavelli then. Or perhaps Ezio makes contact with the Medici family through Machiavelli.

This thread can also discuss other character's involvement, if you wish.

OHS_90
10-19-2009, 01:19 AM
Yes I will be interested to see what Machiavelli's role in the game will be. If I recall correctly I remember reading somewhere that Machiavelli teaches Ezio "tactics", which I believe may be the types of guards you encounter, their strengths and weaknesses etc.. or he may teach you something completely different. But it should be interesting no matter what his role in the game.

Ps. Just a little off topic, I will also be interested to see how they portray Machiavelli's character. I hope they didnt just read Il Principe (The Prince) and show him as some arch-typical power hungry, ruthless madman (ala Emperor Palpatine). But instead examine all his work and show him as he really was (ie. a Republican).

Xantos: Hope you enjoy The Prince, as I certainly did. But, if possible, try to get the Discourses on Livy to really see how Machiavelli really would have run a state.

guipit
10-19-2009, 02:33 AM
When Machiavelli wrote The Prince and gave it to the Medicis they tortured him and put him in prison if I recall correctly it'd be great if you rescue him.

OHS_90
10-19-2009, 03:38 AM
Yep, when the Medici returned from exile (again) they gave him the boot from the government, and then decided to torture him for whatever reason it was they made up. All of this happened around 1510 I think so if you did have to rescue him, Ezio would be one awesome Master Assassin by that point.

Xanatos2007
10-19-2009, 03:49 AM
Sounds grand! Too bad I have to wait 'til next year to experience this awesomeness.
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Yes, I'm going to complain about the PC delay any chance I get.</pre>

Sparta955
10-19-2009, 07:09 AM
Yeah Machiavelli teaches "tactics" whatever that means, I like that idea of the guards thingy. And the managing an estate thing.


Machiavelli was exiled, after Florence's Republic was destroyed, under the accusation of being involved with the conspiracy against the Medicis. He was tortured but released. He went to his estate and died there peacefully.

Yeah this was all in 1513.

PlagueDoctor357
10-19-2009, 08:10 AM
Well, that is in our 30 year range, so that's sweet.

Coolgerb
10-19-2009, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by OHS_90:
power hungry, ruthless madman (ala Emperor Palpatine). But instead examine all his work and show him as he really was (ie. a Republican).

...There's a difference?

LaurenIsSoMosh
10-19-2009, 01:52 PM
I'm not familiar with Machiavelli, but it sounds to me like he might be advising us on our assassinations and the impact they'll have.

Anybody who writes a book about how to capture a state probably knows a thing or two about knocking off people properly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Originally posted by OHS_90:
Ps. Just a little off topic, I will also be interested to see how they portray Machiavelli's character. I hope they didnt just read Il Principe (The Prince) and show him as some arch-typical power hungry, ruthless madman (ala Emperor Palpatine). But instead examine all his work and show him as he really was (ie. a Republican). I'm sure they've done their homework. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SWJS
10-19-2009, 02:56 PM
If I recall correctly, I remember reading that Machiavelli will be the leader of the Mercenaries faction.

I can't recall the source, but if I stumble over it I'll post it. I'm in the middle of writing a script for a Halo 3 Machinima at the moment and I'm a bit busy, so I probably wont get to look for it.

DeSabellis
10-19-2009, 03:00 PM
Machiavelli was in charge of Florence's militia at one point, but they were private citizens, not mercenaries.

Kaxen6
10-19-2009, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
If I recall correctly, I remember reading that Machiavelli will be the leader of the Mercenaries faction.

I don't think Machiavelli would want to lead mercenaries.

thekyle0
10-19-2009, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Kaxen6:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
If I recall correctly, I remember reading that Machiavelli will be the leader of the Mercenaries faction.

I don't think Machiavelli would want to lead mercenaries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif I was laughing about what the mercenaries might think of the way he talks about them in The Prince.

OHS_90
10-19-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
If I recall correctly, I remember reading that Machiavelli will be the leader of the Mercenaries faction.
But isnt Mario a mercenary Condottieri? Which would then mean he is the leader of a mercenary group. And Machiavelli wasnt too much of a fan of mercenaries anyway.

DeSabellis
10-19-2009, 03:04 PM
Exactly... he wasn't a fan of them what so ever. Interesting point about that as well, The Prince was post-humous in publication just like a lot of his fame.

Kaxen6
10-19-2009, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by thekyle0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaxen6:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
If I recall correctly, I remember reading that Machiavelli will be the leader of the Mercenaries faction.

I don't think Machiavelli would want to lead mercenaries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif I was laughing about what the mercenaries might think of the way he talks about them in The Prince. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

UchihaKarasu
10-19-2009, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Kaxen6:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
If I recall correctly, I remember reading that Machiavelli will be the leader of the Mercenaries faction.

I don't think Machiavelli would want to lead mercenaries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, this made me snicker too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Xanatos2007
10-19-2009, 08:56 PM
Mario (Ezio's uncle) is the leader of the mercs, and we all know Machiavelli opposed the use of mercenaries, so I was thinking that each ally/faction would have strengths & weaknesses. Like a 'rock-paper-scissors' kind of thing. Although the thieves seem pretty handy all-round... they must suck at something.

desonnac0
10-20-2009, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
Sounds grand! Too bad I have to wait 'til next year to experience this awesomeness.
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Yes, I'm going to complain about the PC delay any chance I get.</pre>

+1

SWJS
10-20-2009, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
and <STRIKE>we all</STRIKE> most of us knew Machiavelli opposed the use of mercenaries

Gee guys, I really appreciate the fact that you made it obvious that I didn't know about Machiavelli's distaste for mercenaries, rubbed my virtual face in it, and then chose to laugh about it.

In my honest opinion, I read that in an article and thought it was true, so you'll have to forgive my gullable stupidity.

I haven't read Machiavelli's book. Why? I'm not a history buff, I'm an English buff. I'd appreciate it if you guys wouldn't expect me to know everything about the Renaissance and poke fun at my mistakes if I got something wrong. I'm a bit touchy when it comes to stuff like that.

In all honesty, my opinion on the Machiavelli matter is such - Perhaps Machiavelli will be a contact for Lorenzo, or perhaps we'll just be randomly doing small side quests for him. Whatever he ends up doing in the game, I'm sure it'll come as a nice surprise to us all.

Xanatos2007
10-20-2009, 01:51 AM
"We all" know that now since it has been pointed out in this thread already (I already knew he didn't like mercs, but everyone else who reads this thread would know that by the time they got to my post). And you don't have to be a history buff to read The Prince, or The Art of War, or watch Troy, or Enemy at the Gates, or Gladiator, or many others.

And where'd you hear that Machiavelli would be the leader of the mercs? That's like saying Leonardo will be leader of the courteseans. I think you got "Maciavelli" confused with "Mario".

SWJS
10-20-2009, 01:59 AM
No, not really. Honestly I remember reading somewhere that someone said Machiavelli would lead the Mercs faction. It was quite a while ago, but I do remember it. It may have been speculation, or from Gamespot. They're idiots anyway.

And I don't suppose you have concrete proof of Mario leading the Mercenaries? All I recall about Mario is he's Ezio's long-lost uncle that shows up out of nowhere to teach Ezio how to fight. I never read anything that specifically stated he was the Mercs leader.

Kaxen6
10-20-2009, 02:02 AM
Since when was The Prince for history buffs?

I read it for Political Science...


EDIT

Mario the Mercenary is mentioned here: http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/..._2/preview-1919.html (http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/assassins_creed_2/preview-1919.html)

SWJS
10-20-2009, 02:08 AM
I should probably mention I'm an English buff because I like to write, not read.

I would read Machiavelli's book, but I simply don't find the material interesting. I'll read if it seems interesting to me.

And no, I never had to read books like The Prince in school. We mostly read Shakespeare, since southern americans seem to find his plays the best pieces of work on the planet. *sigh* It's times like this when I wish I lived in another culture.

EDIT: thank you for the link Kaxen. I'm convinced now.

Impulsez
10-20-2009, 02:10 AM
I read about 10 of these posts (i skipped a few) and i've come to my own conclusion (probably all wrong :P) but umm, by Mercs could mean Merdici(how ever u spell it) like in his book or whatever, and if he wrote about running a town sorta thing, maybe his tactics is like saying which factions to join and which to take down to help you acheive your over all goal.... like saying that the loss of this household/faction (or whatever it is) will maybe leave this person open for assassination or osmething. I kinda like the idea of him teaching you tactics on different enemies. Like against the different archetypes, maybe used range on the agile ones, or move quikly on the brutes because their slow and can't catch you and stuff liek that.... i'm just throwing out some ideas plz only igve positive critisism

Kaxen6
10-20-2009, 02:21 AM
The Medici aren't mercenaries.



Though if Machiavelli is in charge of giving advice, I hope it is genuinely useful. I hate in-game advice that is utterly useless, statements of the obvious, and/or things you've figured out prior.

...and Machiavelli is smarter than that... albeit it's probably been inflated by my fangirl tendencies.

Impulsez
10-20-2009, 02:29 AM
I didn't mean that Merdici's were mercaneries i was saying that mercs might mean Merdici's since Mercs and Merdici starts with Mer :P just saying.

UchihaKarasu
10-20-2009, 07:12 AM
Medici doesn't start with "Mer" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

LaurenIsSoMosh
10-20-2009, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Kaxen6:
I hate in-game advice that is utterly useless, statements of the obvious, and/or things you've figured out prior. *after stealthily assassinating five Templars* "You should befriend some scholars to help you." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

X10J
10-20-2009, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Kaxen6:
I hate in-game advice that is utterly useless, statements of the obvious, and/or things you've figured out prior.

i know like in AC1

informant:"The templars templars attending Majd Adin's(spelling) funeral are skilled fighters."

who would have thought that soldiers, body gaurds for a military cammander no less, would be skilled fighters

Sparta955
10-20-2009, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
And you don't have to be a history buff to read The Prince, or The Art of War, or watch Troy, or Enemy at the Gates, or Gladiator, or many others.


Good thing that Troy, Enemy at the Gates, and Gladiator are all completely incorrect movies that focus more on entertainment than actual fact as they should, as its a movie.

You must forgive me for I am a history buff, and I suck at English, so I applaud EzioTheAssassin for being good at English :O

guipit
10-21-2009, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Sparta955:
Yeah Machiavelli teaches "tactics" whatever that means, I like that idea of the guards thingy. And the managing an estate thing.


Machiavelli was exiled, after Florence's Republic was destroyed, under the accusation of being involved with the conspiracy against the Medicis. He was tortured but released. He went to his estate and died there peacefully.

Yeah this was all in 1513.

Anyone know what age Ezio will be in 1513? I'd be pretty disappointed If you didn't rescue him since it seemed like he was released for no reason and I'd totally take liberties if I was the developer.

Xanatos2007
10-21-2009, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by guipit:
Anyone know what age Ezio will be in 1513?

Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
Well, that is in our 30 year range, so that's sweet.

brisinger228
10-21-2009, 01:15 PM
sorry ifergot wut we wuz talkin `bout

Xanatos2007
10-21-2009, 11:50 PM
Machiavelli (and other characters) role in ACII.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Just finished reading The Prince, I so hope they incorporate it into the game somehow.</pre>

OHS_90
10-22-2009, 04:02 AM
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Just finished reading The Prince, I so hope they incorporate it into the game somehow.</pre>
Could well do, seeing as Niccolo did circualte it around some friends (or perhaps it was another of his works). But it would probably be dependant upon how intelligent they decide to make Ezio. But on the other hand, if they change a bit of history and model the politics on those given in The Prince then we could be in for a fun time. Power politics all the way!!!

As a side note, in Dev diary V they have Paula, the leader of the Courtisans, who apparently teaches Ezio "...how to survive". What ever that means.

X10J
10-22-2009, 08:08 PM
i read somwhere that she teaches him how to blend http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

General_Lekauf
10-23-2009, 01:49 AM
who is machiavelli sorry i didnt pay to much attention in history at that time

the amolang
10-23-2009, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by General_Lekauf:
who is machiavelli sorry i didnt pay to much attention in history at that time
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif you are not worthy of getting ac2. lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

OHS_90
10-23-2009, 02:11 AM
Machiavelli was an Italian small time politician from Florence. Eventually he was "coerced" out of Florence by the Medici and lived in a countryside villa for the rest of his life. Oh he also wrote the odd book or two on politics as well. Heck his name even has its own meaning in the dictionary.

guipit
10-23-2009, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by OHS_90:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Just finished reading The Prince, I so hope they incorporate it into the game somehow.</pre>
Could well do, seeing as Niccolo did circualte it around some friends (or perhaps it was another of his works). But it would probably be dependant upon how intelligent they decide to make Ezio. But on the other hand, if they change a bit of history and model the politics on those given in The Prince then we could be in for a fun time. Power politics all the way!!!

As a side note, in Dev diary V they have Paula, the leader of the Courtisans, who apparently teaches Ezio "...how to survive". What ever that means. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

she's guna teach Ezio how to ***** himself lol

SinNyxAtra
10-23-2009, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by guipit:

she's guna teach Ezio how to ***** himself lol

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif Oh joy, the boy will not only be an assassin but a gigolo as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif