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Gerd_Schopfel
09-20-2004, 10:07 AM
It's unbelievable how sucessful the U-boats were in WWI. They wrecked way more havoc than the U-boats of WWII. On top of that, the German Imperial Navy sunk 6,596 ships with 274 U-boats during WWI, while Donitz's Kriegsmarine sank 2,779 ships with a few hundred U-boats during WWII...At any rate, it's interesting to see just how bloody the Graveyard Of The Atlantic was in WWI!

The most successful U-boat in WWI and WWII:
In WWI, U-35 sank 224 ships mounting to 539,741 tons
In WWII, U-48 sank 51 ships mounting to 306,875 tons

Man that is quite a difference in tonnage and ship count! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Gerd_Schopfel
09-20-2004, 10:07 AM
It's unbelievable how sucessful the U-boats were in WWI. They wrecked way more havoc than the U-boats of WWII. On top of that, the German Imperial Navy sunk 6,596 ships with 274 U-boats during WWI, while Donitz's Kriegsmarine sank 2,779 ships with a few hundred U-boats during WWII...At any rate, it's interesting to see just how bloody the Graveyard Of The Atlantic was in WWI!

The most successful U-boat in WWI and WWII:
In WWI, U-35 sank 224 ships mounting to 539,741 tons
In WWII, U-48 sank 51 ships mounting to 306,875 tons

Man that is quite a difference in tonnage and ship count! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Thunderball807
09-20-2004, 11:05 AM
True, but you've got to remember how different the nature of submarine warfare was at the time. In WWI, there were practically no effective anti-sub weapons, and the practice of restricted submarine warfare was still in effect to an extent - meaning, german u-boats would stop enemy vessels, order the crew into lifeboats, and then torpedo the stationary target. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that a massive convoy system was in effect in the first World War. Anyhow, WWI u-boat success is still very impressive.

Gerd_Schopfel
09-20-2004, 11:13 AM
Thunderball807 wrote:
"...correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that a massive convoy system was in effect in the first World War."
=================
Okay I'll correct you. There was a MASSIVE convoy system enabled during the last year of WWI in order to keep England in the war. The idea came from some English thinktank I think(go figure). In addition, without the convoy system, there was no way the Allies would have brought the Germans to their knees (American troop transports would have been shot up like rubber ducks).
So you see...convoys pay off!

Xanthippus
09-20-2004, 01:17 PM
Well, not quite true, military movements by sea were generally done in convoy, it was partly because of this, and the realisation of how few losses these formations had suffered, that the convoy system was introduced for merchant shipping.

CB..
09-20-2004, 03:10 PM
and who would have believed that the brits had subs in active service during the last year of the war that could reach 15 knots submerged...

i have read that the most effective weapons against subs (alongside the convoy system) during ww1 were observation balloons towed from ships..and other subs...

there was lots of sub v sub conflict i believe

lonewulf44
09-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Granted I dont think you can directly compare the two naval wars and their results simply by numbers, but another thing to think about is that in the Great War Germany had no bases in France, and yet still acheived more while only being able to operate from far less bases! Just osmething else to think about.

Long Live Prussia!

bertgang
09-24-2004, 08:02 AM
A totally different combat style.
Lothar Von Arnauld de la Peri√¬®re, 194 ships, 450.000 tons sunk, only four torpedoes launched.

u2336
09-24-2004, 08:46 AM
yep !! thats true !!
A WWI sub sim would be perfect for the deck gun fans... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Sometimes they even used their rescue boat to put explosive charges in the arrested boat...how to save shells and torps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh I forgot, they usually asked the crew to leave the boat before....

Gerd_Schopfel
09-24-2004, 10:00 AM
NOW that is something! Sinking 194 ships with a mere 4 torps and using the dech gun for the rest. Man talk about efficiency!!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Jackie Fisher
09-26-2004, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A totally different combat style.
Lothar Von Arnauld de la Peri√¬®re, 194 ships, 450.000 tons sunk, only four torpedoes launched. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.. but they were pattern-running torpedoes! Just kidding...

tone

Xanthippus
09-26-2004, 07:14 PM
I'm curious as to the circumstances that involved him using those 4 torp's!

Was it a New Year's tradition? welcome 1915, 1916, 1917 and 1918 in with a few fireworks?

bertgang
09-27-2004, 04:07 AM
I think he was simply out of shells.
One of these torpedoes was miss.

Gerd_Schopfel
09-27-2004, 09:39 AM
I've read that some WWI U-boats had both a 88mm and 105mm deck gun!
Imagine how much fun they had with them!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Deamon-
11-25-2004, 01:30 PM
It was a common practice in WWI to place charges on previously stopped ships or opne curtain vents and sinck the ship in this way. Using the deckgun when the sharges was used up or the ship shooted back and finaly torpedos. In this way most of the ships were sunk without using torpedos. It would be a waste of torpedos anyway if you else could stop a ship and order the crew abband it and than open all bulkheads and place a few charges.

But as america stepped in to the war the unristricted u-boat war was called out and the losses grow dramaticaly and GB was FORCED to introduce the long demanded convoy system. The convoy system prooved to be effective.

Deamon

Mjollnir111675
11-25-2004, 06:06 PM
Yes but one must remember that W.W.1 saw the first wide-spread use of the u-boat.And with that in mind by the time W.W.2 came round everyone pretty much knew that the Kreigsmarine was gonna use it that time round.So they kinda knew how to counter it.Not that only but w.w.2 saw more sea action fer longer so that in and of itself helped to develop counter measures with both time fer development and time to find out waht worked and what didn't.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SailorSteve
11-25-2004, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
A totally different combat style.
Lothar Von Arnauld de la Peri√¬®re, 194 ships, 450.000 tons sunk, only four torpedoes launched. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Umm, not quite. According toThe U-Boat War: 1914-1918, by Edwin Gray, von Arnauld de la Periere used 4 torpedoes against one ship, with two hits and two misses,on March 1, 1916. The first hit, and the ship tried to ram him by running in reverse! The fourth finally put her down. Just a few days earlier he sank a French troop ship with a loss of 990 lives, so he obviously didn't stop that one and let them abandon ship.

It was his fourth patrol, in July 1916, that made the record: 54 ships sunk, 56,818 tons, with 4 torpedoes and 900 shells from the deck gun. Still an impressive job, but one wonders at the ammunition storage on a WWI boat, when the bigger boats of WWII only held 150-200.

In October he expended all his torpedoes, the last to sink another troop ship, for the loss of 600 soldiers' lives.

An amazing story: In November 1917 Lothar von Arnauld de la Periere attacked a ten-ship convoy with U-139 in the Bay of Biscay. The escort was two armed merchant cruisers. von Arnauld fired a torpedo at one and missed. He then decided to surface and fight it out with his deck gun (against two large ships each armed with four guns)! He then dived again and went through a depth-charge attack (the weapons were new, and with no ASDIC his chances were pretty good). He then surfaced again and chased down the convoy. He damaged two of the merchants with his deck gun before the AMCs started trying to ram him. He dove again, then came to periscope depth to try to torpedo a crippled cargo ship. The escorts saw his periscope and forced him down again. He finally came to periscope depth one more time and torpedoed the crippled merchant. As U-139 was diving, the merchant sank-on top of them! By blowing his ballast von Arnauld was able to slide out from under the sinking merchant, but all three of his periscopes were broken. He surfaced and was immediately attacked again. An hour after diving again U-139 surfaced and saw the enemy's searchlights far in the distance. This was Lothar von Arnauld de la Periere's last patrol. He fired a lot more than 4 torpedoes during the war, but still an amazing career for a man who originally wanted to join the Zeppelin service, but was rejected.

Hitman_PAces
11-26-2004, 12:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just a few days earlier he sank a French troop ship with a loss of 990 lives, so he obviously didn't stop that one and let them abandon ship <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not all ships had to be stopped and checked first. That applied only to merchant ships sailing alone and civilian passenger ships. Warships and escorted cargo vessels could be attacked freely.

I don't think that noone ever pretended that a WW1 U-Boot surfaced 200 metres away from a battleship, aimed at her with the deck gun and ordered to abandon ship! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

SailorSteve
11-26-2004, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hitman_PAces:
[QUOTE]I don't think that noone ever pretended that a WW1 U-Boot surfaced 200 metres away from a battleship, aimed at her with the deck gun and ordered to abandon ship! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You, sir, are no gentleman! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

That brings to mind the case of poor Otto Weddigen. While in command of U-9 he became famous when he sank the three Armored Cruisers Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue, all on the same day. Later, in U-29 he stumbled onto the entire Grand Fleet on maneuvers. While looking around, he apparently didn't notice the battleship Dreadnought bearing right down on him. Weddigen perished with his crew, and Dreadnought became the only battleship ever credited with sinking a submarine.

IIJG69-Niklaus
11-26-2004, 04:08 PM
Someone has any pictures of WW1 sub please?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

king_cam
11-26-2004, 09:53 PM
ya i want to see some pics now that he mentioned it

hauitsme
11-26-2004, 11:19 PM
Go to Google, click on Images, type in WW1 subs, then look the sites shown.

http://www.dropbears.com/w/ww1subs/images/subw.jpg

Yarrick_
11-27-2004, 08:03 AM
What the hell where they suposesd to do with that antennae? How was the sub supposed to submerge without being seen?

An interesting factor about WWI subs is that they had a calculated crash deep of 50 meters (mainly), but they were able to submerge much more without the hull crashing.

When will we have a WWI submarine simulator?

SailorSteve
11-27-2004, 12:09 PM
That's not a wireless antenna-it's the mast for sailing home when the engines fail or run out of fuel!

Actually, I'm fairly certain the antenna was hinged, so it could be lowered before diving.

Gerd_Schopfel
11-29-2004, 12:18 PM
Now that I take a deep breath and look back at the German submarines in WWI (yep, WWI with the one), it becomes quite clear that German WWI submarines armed to the teeth, were for the most part better than their WWII counterparts- Excluding the XXI and "XXIII" electric boats.

In many instances, the WWI U-boats were faster both under and on water, carried more torps and deck gun ammo (some even had 2 deck guns!).

Tell me what you all think? I mean, the WWI boats really were just as good!!

Deamon-
12-02-2004, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yarrick_:
What the hell where they suposesd to do with that antennae? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sending/receiving messages!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How was the sub supposed to submerge without being seen? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have retracted the antena befor diving.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
An interesting factor about WWI subs is that they had a calculated crash deep of 50 meters (mainly), but they were able to submerge much more without the hull crashing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, 50 meters was the "save" deapth, with a savety factor of 2,5 that means that this deapth is 2,5 of the calculated crush deapth. So for 50 meters diving deapth the calculated crush deapth would be 125 meters. That's why they were able to go deeper then the 50 meters.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
When will we have a WWI submarine simulator?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not, soon mate.

http://207.44.164.159/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=16&sid=3fcda061db64505445dcbc08b5af17d0

Deamon

Deamon-
12-15-2004, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gerd_Schopfel:
Now that I take a deep breath and look back at the German submarines in WWI (yep, WWI with the one), it becomes quite clear that German WWI submarines armed to the teeth, were for the most part better than their WWII counterparts- Excluding the XXI and "XXIII" electric boats.

In many instances, the WWI U-boats were faster both under and on water, carried more torps and deck gun ammo (some even had 2 deck guns!).

Tell me what you all think? I mean, the WWI boats really were just as good!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, i don't think that they were better then the WWII boats. The reason why many WWI were faster submerged was because they had mutch powerfuller e-engines. But the surface speed wasn't realy higher then in WWII in fact mostly even lower then in WWII. I just think on the UBIII type whitch had a surface top speed of approx, 13,5kn. even more worse the UBII typ with a top speed of approx 9 kn and not to mention their little brother UBI type with a top speed of approx. 6,5-7,5 knots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif But this were snall types. The reason for this slow speed was also the fact that the diesels that were designated for this small types couldn't have been delivered so they had to build in motors from any small crafts that wasn't been intended for use in a submarine.

The earlier submarines in WWI also hadn't deckguns initialy and the tower construction was smaller also and without that many AAA's the WWII u-boats have to had. So they surly had a smaller drag and in adittion many subs were able to retract at least one deck gun what makes less drag of course.

Worth to mention is also that in WWI the variety of submarine designs in germany was quiet large compared to the few standart types in WWII, since it was a very experimental time.

Concerns the ability of carring more torpedos, this is only half true. The big u-cruisers could of course carry more torpedos. But the fleet submarines did carried rediculous few torpedos. The first series of fleet u-boats carried only 6 torpedo. The later once 8 and exeptionaly 10 torpedos. Most sources shows mutch higher numbers of torpedos, but i cannot explain this numbers. If they have carried that mutch torpedos then they must have carried them in exteriour storages. But on most u-boats i could never finde this exteriour storages, exept on the big u-cruisers and a smaller mine layer type.

But there is not only the pure top speeds that count but also the design itself. The WWII u-boats were more matured then their ancestors in WWI.

Another thig worth to mention is that in WWI the material material shortage in the manufacture of the diesels, caused by the sea blockade crippled the performance of the u-botas more and more towards the end of the war. U96 for example had a top speed of approx. 17 knots but due to the bad materials that had to be used for the diesels had allowed them a top seed of 13 knots for a short time and an permanent top speed of 11kn http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif even then they had suffered regular breackdowns. But the design itself was quite reliable.

So practicaly the WWII u-boats had outperformed the WWI u-boats on the surface.

Deamon