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View Full Version : Arrrgh!What i'm doing wrong?!



Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 01:04 AM
So...i never used fighter...and im trying to learn it.I've done a lot of instant missions using pretty all planes.But, no way..i still suck!I mean..yesterday i make a big air battle: my squadron was composed of Corsairs, and gladiators...agains 16 p.11 ( eheh i konw i know...but it was for fun ).I thought...ehy man, im using a La-7 with 3x20mm guns..will be too easy!.....result: i shooted down only 5 planes and then they shoot me down! I had all the others p.11 behibnd me.I know i could go away from them, but i tried to make some evasives movements without having to run away and then come back. But no way! Every time i have a plane behind me, that i could be a p-40, a p-51, a p11,corsair,ecc ecc...i cant evade from it!I try to use scisso but it doesnt work...what i'm doing wrong?

Adam906
04-02-2006, 01:14 AM
Well if you are using the 4.04 patch then there's a big hint as to your problem. The AI just sucks! More often than not they seem to focus on you rather than any other viable target - hence you get more attention from enemy a/c than your wingmen.

I find that whenever I have a bogey on my tail I pull tight turns till the AI gets tired and breaks off. This works even when I'm in a Beaufighter being pursued by a zero (technically suicide but it works!)

Though I must say - shooting down five enemy a/c isn't anything to be ashamed of. But as I said, the AI sucks. I can fly with 8 'ACE' Bf 109s against 16 Blenhiems and at the end of the mission I will have bagged at least 3/4s of the kills.

Friednly AI are useless while enemy AI are superhuman demons who focus predominantly on you.

I don't fly offline much anymore because 4.04 has turned this great simulator into an arcade joke.

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 01:25 AM
Yes...it was wery funny to watch..using f6 view i could see 10 p11 behind me and all my squadron fighting against 4 or 5...But i thought i was supposed to shoot down all of those p11..i mean: they are 1938 planes and i used a 1945 super armed plane.
I used your trick..i started using tight turns till annemy planes breaks of or just loosed control and crashed.But my goal was to use some evasives movements..but seems doesnt work.And how I said I used pretty all the planes always having a "technical" advantage. But no way..they are always on my six!

spitzfiya
04-02-2006, 01:27 AM
I don't fly offline much anymore because 4.04 has turned this great simulator into an arcade joke.

I noticed that earlier versions of IL2 felt more "arcade" then 4.04

But online is where it's at http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 01:31 AM
Cant tell you about AI..i always used b-25 so, wing man wasn't a problem. I just dropped bombs and then back home...but fighters...those are really frustrating.I think i have to practice but..for now the only thing i can do very well is shoot down bombers.

Adam906
04-02-2006, 01:58 AM
I don't fly online for various reasons so all my flight time on IL2 is offline. As for the early versions, I bought the game kicking off at something like 3.03 or something.

Yeah, shooting down bombers is good practice for tactical appreciation of attacking an enemy but even there the AI stinks!

Bring on 4.05 and something less arcade-like

SeaFireLIV
04-02-2006, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Fighterduck:
i shooted down only 5 planes and then they shoot me down! I had all the others p.11 behibnd me.I know i could go away from them, but i tried to make some evasives movements without having to run away and then come back. But no way!

Ok, disregarding the fact that AI is bugged (which it is compared to 4.03/2), shooting down five AI aircraft in one mission is a great accomplishment and you shouldn`t complain at all. Of course since you were playing for `fun` I suspect that you`ve neglected to mention that you were probably on mostly easy settings (like unlimited ammo, etc), so it`s probably not as imppressive as it seems. To be impressive you need to shoot 5 aircraft down on all the major settings ie, limited ammo, full engine management, cockpit mode on, etc.

Also, you tried not to outrun the P11s in your LA5s - this was a mistake. You will NOT out-scissor or outturn P11s in an LA5 since P11s are excelent turners (even on rookie) and are too slow to make overshoot so they`ll always stick to you.

You should`ve outtrun them and come back. This would be the correct thing to do.

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 04:00 AM
No but...i play with limited ammo and complex enigne..the only "cheat" i use is the externals view because i have not TrackIR and it's difficult to fallow ennemy movements.I use limited ammo because when i play online this is alway on ( no reason to use unlimited...or jus for fun )..for "just for fun" i mean the fact that my planes was supposed to be superior than p11 and i thought that it would be really easy to kill them.And i thought " man i shooted down only 5 of those "dinosaurs", and wasnt able to outturn them...i still suck!"

Yes, i think that try to outturn a biplane is a mistake...but i cant use scissor against anya plane..the stay always on my six...meaby i do something wrong using this movement.

Adam906
04-02-2006, 04:29 AM
trying to outdive any AI plane is suicide. They stick to you like glue and more often than not pull maneouvres that in real life they just wouldn't have been able to.

Ie the way zeros dive after you, not being effected by black/red outs... the AI is a step back IMO

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 05:26 AM
for now i cant use planes that doesnt have at least 20mm guns..i tried p-51 and p-47 but i have to be too precise and that's not for me now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

...so La or zeros are good planes for me, also because they are easy to fly.But also with those planes....always someone on my six http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

thefruitbat
04-02-2006, 05:53 AM
Just my two cents, The main problem that i had back in the day was not fighting in the vertical. I think this is probally a common problem to most people starting out on fighters. I have in the past, i think it was in 4.01 fought 16ai normal on my own and won, unlimeted ammo of course. I think i used a g2 v hurri 38's, a bit unfair, but so was 16 v 1. The key is to use your superior climb, reverse back on them, dive down, pick your target, shoot, and then use your spped from the dive you zoom back up out of danger, climb away and repeat. You just have to be disaplined, and resist the urge to turn with them untill you have thinned them out considerably. It takes time, and is not really an enjoyable way of fighting, but by doing this, you are flying outside of there flight envolope, they are powerless to do anything. I dont think i could do it on ace, because i expect at some point i would probally leave myself open to a snap shot somewhere, although i reckon in a la7 agaisnt p11 i might still have a chance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

remember fight in the vertical, the ai sucks at this, and it is good practise for online

thefruitbat
04-02-2006, 07:09 AM
ok i just gave it a try in a la7 agaisnt hurris (normal), but changed to spit25, so i didnmt have to worry about superchatgers and mixture.
I shot down 10, and had 3 left around me, presumably 3 were on there way back to base damaged, 2 of the 3 around me were smoking, and then i ran out of fuel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif mental note, take 75%next time. The fight started at 1000, and ended up between 5000 and 8000 mainly.

It actually proved to be quite a good exersise for SA, and if my gunnery had been a bit better, i would of cleaned them up before i ran out of fuel. A couple of shots were landed on me, but from range, the ai seem to shoot from much futher away now, they never used to shoot past 500m, but i saw a couple taking pot shots at me from 650m!

of course, i would never be able to do this in evenly matched planes, but then nor should you be able to defeat odds like that. And if i had been fighting humans instead of the ai, even with such an advantage you would never win

I have got the track if you want to see it.

cheers fruitbat

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 07:13 AM
oh yeah..track is a good idea...where can i upload one?so you can see how bad i am in dogfight! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

thefruitbat
04-02-2006, 07:18 AM
umm, this is a slight technical problem, i know how to host pictures, but i dont know where i can upload tracks to yet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif. Give us a couple of mins, and i'll try to figure it out, then we can swap, and hopefully i'll be able to help tell you where u are going wrong,

cheers fruitbat

VW-IceFire
04-02-2006, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Fighterduck:
So...i never used fighter...and im trying to learn it.I've done a lot of instant missions using pretty all planes.But, no way..i still suck!I mean..yesterday i make a big air battle: my squadron was composed of Corsairs, and gladiators...agains 16 p.11 ( eheh i konw i know...but it was for fun ).I thought...ehy man, im using a La-7 with 3x20mm guns..will be too easy!.....result: i shooted down only 5 planes and then they shoot me down! I had all the others p.11 behibnd me.I know i could go away from them, but i tried to make some evasives movements without having to run away and then come back. But no way! Every time i have a plane behind me, that i could be a p-40, a p-51, a p11,corsair,ecc ecc...i cant evade from it!I try to use scisso but it doesnt work...what i'm doing wrong?

I've bolded your mistake. A La-7...despite being incredible agile is not going to match the agility of a P.11 or any really early war bi-planes early monoplanes. The I-153, I-16, and other types are excellent aircraft in the turn...they all have big high lift wings and low top speeds. Even with the La-7s agility you cannot win a turn fight with one of these. Against some late war Japanese fighters a La-7 cannot win a turn fight...you need to realize that making tight turns is not the only component to evasive manuevers.

Google up the following topics: scissors, rolling scissors, Split-S, high yo-yo, low yo-yo, rudder skid, and so forth.

With the La-7 VS P.11 scenario...all you should do is run (this is called extending) and then climb slightly and come back at them from superior altitude. Dive on them, make a shot, and then climb away again. The idea is to make sure that an enemy fighter never gets behind you. THat said...the AI is relentless in chasing down someone infront. Usually what you need to do is run long enough for your wingman to make a shot at them and trigger the AI to breakoff.

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 07:51 AM
Thanks man!..only a question: yo-yo are evasive movements?..arent they used to go close to the ennemy?...as you see i dont really know tactics to use.I always used scissor to try to evade and yo-yo to find a shooting position going closer to the ennemy.

Which configuration can I use to practice?I mean which planes are good to fight against? ( remember tha me, need 20mm guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

thefruitbat
04-02-2006, 08:08 AM
what icefire said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

here is a really good guide explaning combat moves when and when not to etc.. It really is an exellent guide.

http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/

as to what plane, if u really want 20's, la7 or spit25 have almost unparralled dogfighting ability against most things. To start with u want to choose a plane to fight against that is slow and dosent climb well, i always used to use hurris, then as you get better either start to use a slightly worse plane, or a slightly improved enemy. This way u can learn how to extend and control the fight.
as to sissors, it is all about timing, i used to find it really hard untill i got track ir, but good practise is emil v hurri, u should be able to scissor it all day long.

this link hopefully will work for the track, if it does i can do some tracks for you of things like scissors etc.
Click here to download !1v16.TRK (http://www.quickdump.com/files/1271501549.html)

cheers fruitbat

Crash_Moses
04-02-2006, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Fighterduck:
Cant tell you about AI..i always used b-25 so, wing man wasn't a problem. I just dropped bombs and then back home...but fighters...those are really frustrating.I think i have to practice but..for now the only thing i can do very well is shoot down bombers.

Why in the world would you want to fly anything other than the B-25? Harumph! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 10:09 AM
Ehy! you are right! against hurri..it's really better!

VW-IceFire
04-02-2006, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Fighterduck:
Thanks man!..only a question: yo-yo are evasive movements?..arent they used to go close to the ennemy?...as you see i dont really know tactics to use.I always used scissor to try to evade and yo-yo to find a shooting position going closer to the ennemy.

Which configuration can I use to practice?I mean which planes are good to fight against? ( remember tha me, need 20mm guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
Yo-yo is more of a pursuit method but when your flying a faster less manueverable fighter its going to help you get the bead on the slower but more manueverable fighter. In this case your P.11 vs La-7 matchup. Remember, even in air combat, the best defense is a good offense. The longer your on the attack the better.

In your case I would recommend a couple of fighters.

The Spitfire Mark IX (any variant really) or the La-5/7 are good Allied fighters. If your allegiance or preference falls to the other side then the A6M Zero (any model) or Bf109 are good places to start. I have no particular qualms with flying either side or any type of plane so I've practiced with them all. The best matchups are to set contemporary aircraft against each other. So a A6M2-21 against a F4F-4 Wildcat is a good match in terms of historical adversaries. A Spitfire Mark IX against a Bf109G-6 or a FW190A-6 is a good match. Or a 109F-4 against a Yak-1.

Don't be affraid to do what it suggests in the manual and pick a slow, poorly armed (or none at all) transport aircraft and use that as target practice for a while. Get good at approaching the target and aiming accurately at certain components of the transport and then work your way up. The more complex manuevers save for later when your basic skills like flying, low angle deflection shooting, and basic target approach and breakoff is easy for you to do. Remember that ramming a bomber, transport, or fighter should be a never or rare occurance (stricly speaking in terms of excellence in air combat - wartime desperation is another matter).

Generally a scenario with P.11's against late war La-7s is not a good one because the representative performances are not there for what you'd typically be fighting. Try and match them more closely and go from there.

Fighterduck
04-02-2006, 12:02 PM
Thanks for all those advices!I really needed them!I will do some missions today and see the results.

mortoma
04-02-2006, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
i shooted down only 5 planes and then they shoot me down! I had all the others p.11 behibnd me.I know i could go away from them, but i tried to make some evasives movements without having to run away and then come back. But no way!

Ok, disregarding the fact that AI is bugged (which it is compared to 4.03/2), shooting down five AI aircraft in one mission is a great accomplishment and you shouldn`t complain at all. Of course since you were playing for `fun` I suspect that you`ve neglected to mention that you were probably on mostly easy settings (like unlimited ammo, etc), so it`s probably not as imppressive as it seems. To be impressive you need to shoot 5 aircraft down on all the major settings ie, limited ammo, full engine management, cockpit mode on, etc.

Also, you tried not to outrun the P11s in your LA5s - this was a mistake. You will NOT out-scissor or outturn P11s in an LA5 since P11s are excelent turners (even on rookie) and are too slow to make overshoot so they`ll always stick to you.

You should`ve outtrun them and come back. This would be the correct thing to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>He could also outclimb a P-11 when flying a LA-5.
Then drop down for easy kills. A hot air ballon could outclimb a P-11!!!

Fighterduck
04-03-2006, 08:05 AM
Juist made a fight : zeros against wildcat.Uhm found it really easy.Historically speaking, was the wildcat a good opponent to the japenese fighter? cause in the game seems not.

thefruitbat
04-03-2006, 08:58 AM
someone else who knows more will probally jump in, but from what i understand, its pretty accurate. The zero was more agile, lighter and climbed better than the wildcat. The wildcat is slightly quicker and dives better, unfortunatley in game if you fly the wildcat agaisnt ai zeros, they will match your dive!
Also the zero is ideally used in a turn and burn style of fighting, the wildcat, zoom and boom.

In real life, i think it was the use of more effecient tactics and importantly radios that enabled the usn to compete. I am sure i have read here that most jap fighters at the start of the war didnt all have radios, and this must have been a massive disadvantage. i am led to belive it wsnt until the hellcat that the usn had an aircraft that matched the zero in flight performance, in fact the hellcat was designed to counter the zero, from the results of tests on captured zeros.

I might be wrong on some bits, and will be happily corrected though!

i think it would be an intersesting experiment to have an encounter online with one side flying wildcats on comms, against the other flying zeros without comms, cockpit on, no externals. I would be surprised if the zeros managed to win.

cheers fruitbat

Fighterduck
04-04-2006, 09:18 AM
Yes you are right. some japanese fighters didn't have radio to be more light.
I like the Hellcat but it has "only" .50cal and i suck without some 20mm.With normal machine guns it seem that i have to be more precise to do fast damages..with 20mm guns i can fire without to much precision to shot down a plane.

thefruitbat
04-04-2006, 10:43 AM
I actually really like the 50's in the PTO, since jap planes burn like candles http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif, but what i really like about them is the fact that you can swap between all the american planes and not have to worry about making any adjustments to your shooting. I find that a good 2 second burst is generally more than enough for most jap planes, but i alwasys try to aim for the engine, if i can get a lead on it. In my experience you do have to fire the 50's in bursts, not just snap shots, like cannons. The one plane i do like going after in the ETO with 50's is fw190's, i dont know why, but i seem to do better with 50's than cannons agaist them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif MustangIII=190 killer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif