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View Full Version : Did the bf109G14 & K4 have 15mm guns?



Achilles97
02-13-2005, 04:06 PM
Is my source correct? The 109 G14 and K4 had two 15mm machine guns instead of the 13mm mg131. Also, the G14 had the mg151/20mm cannon, not the 30mm.

Is that right?

Thanks!

Abbuzze
02-13-2005, 04:17 PM
Your source is wrong! Also no K4 ever had a MK103 also a mistake, you read very often.
MG151 and MK151/20 are identical except the barrel! so why no 20mm? And the ammo needed the same space. It was simply a weapon that need to much room, It don‚¬īt fit in this postion.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-13-2005, 04:22 PM
the only thing i know is that the G14 and K4 we have in game are hungarian build which were fitted with factory mk108s
but we should have the Mg151/20 on the late war 109s as option because it was the most used gun on the german 109s

3.JG51_BigBear
02-13-2005, 04:27 PM
I'll never understand why they don't add the option for the 20mm. It would take zero changes to the planes model. Just a different round coming out the nose.

Vipez-
02-13-2005, 06:47 PM
other funny thing is how huge the perfomance difference is when you pick 109 G-6 with MK108...

then try it default.. you climb, turn and accelerate faster. FUnny, Mk108 only adds about 25 kg to nose, really I doubt it should have that much impact on perfomance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PBNA-Boosher
02-13-2005, 06:51 PM
My friend Gottfried Dulias flew the 109G-14/AS and his plane had 2 13mm MG's mounted on top of the engine and one 30mm Mk-108 firing through the prop hub.

F19_Ob
02-14-2005, 03:14 AM
The 15mm gun or cannon was only used on the bf109F2 as standard. Experiments were made to have heavier weapons in the cowling on top but
the 13mm was good and reliable and became standard.

As soon as the Mk108 30mm cannon was available it was used but there still were older 109's and 109's with 20mm in circulation.
The 30mm was difficult to operate for inexperienced in high deflection angles but most pilots anyway tried to get close although it could be used on long ranges aswell.
Bf110's fitted with 30mm used to fire at bombers ,who flew straight, from as long distances as 1000m, outside the bombergunners range, and thus could avoid some of the return fire by breaking off earlier.
This method was especially preferable over the sea where u didnt want to recieve hits.

a few thoughts

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-14-2005, 09:51 AM
IIRC it was intended that the 109K4 would be equiped with 2X 20mm cannons and a 30mm MK-103, all in the nose. That was lowered to 2X15mm and in the factory, they installed 2X13mm guns. (and the Mk-108)

One13
02-14-2005, 11:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
IIRC it was intended that the 109K4 would be equiped with 2X 20mm cannons and a 30mm MK-103, all in the nose. That was lowered to 2X15mm and in the factory, they installed 2X13mm guns. (and the Mk-108) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Bf109 could never fit a 20mm cannon as a cowling gun (to fire through the propeller not the propeller hub), this is a typo which has been endlessly repeated. It could only just fit a 20mm to fire through the propeller hub (the breech ends between the pilots feet).
To fit a cowling gun it has to fit between the engine and theback of the instument panel. The biggest gun that can fit in the Bf109 is the MG131, 13mm machine gun.
To give an example of the difference in size the MG131 weight 17kg=37.5lb, the MG151/15 weight 42Kg=92.4lb.

Achilles97
02-14-2005, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
IIRC it was intended that the 109K4 would be equiped with 2X 20mm cannons and a 30mm MK-103, all in the nose. That was lowered to 2X15mm and in the factory, they installed 2X13mm guns. (and the Mk-108) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, so the K was going to have 2x15 but they were never installed on production units?

By the way, my source is: book source (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1880588102/ref%3Dnosim/internalistofsca/103-5770918-7512601)

Hetzer_II
02-15-2005, 12:56 AM
Yes, thats right. There were plans to equip the k4 with 2*151/15, but after doing this in a prototype it was clear that this adds to much weight to the nose of the plane.. so they went back to the 131..

Greets

VOL_Hans
02-15-2005, 08:20 AM
Prototype versions had MG-151/15's, but that means that the number of planes produced like that is insignificant.

Some references state that K-6' or K-8's sometimes had Mk-103 cannons instead of Mk-108's. But how many of those basic K6/K8 models were produced in the first place?

Just like the K-14 model, the plane that could out perform the P-51D in most areas at any altitude. Oh, but what, they only had time to make Two. No, not two hundred I mean just two

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-15-2005, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by One13:

The Bf109 could never fit a 20mm cannon as a cowling gun (to fire through the propeller not the propeller hub), this is a typo which has been endlessly repeated. It could only just fit a 20mm to fire through the propeller hub (the breech ends between the pilots feet).
To fit a cowling gun it has to fit between the engine and theback of the instument panel. The biggest gun that can fit in the Bf109 is the MG131, 13mm machine gun.
To give an example of the difference in size the MG131 weight 17kg=37.5lb, the MG151/15 weight 42Kg=92.4lb. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly.

Rammjaeger
03-06-2006, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
the only thing i know is that the G14 and K4 we have in game are hungarian build which were fitted with factory mk108s
but we should have the Mg151/20 on the late war 109s as option because it was the most used gun on the german 109s

AFAIK the G14 was the only Bf 109 variant that was ever produced in Hungary (namely the Weiss Manfred Works in Csepel and the Wagonwerke in GyŇėr). Whether they differed in any way from those produced in Germany, I have my doubts.

csThor
03-06-2006, 08:24 AM
There weren't even plans to have the MG 151/15 as cowl gun in any 109 - as other said it was far too large and heavy to be placed there. The Myth of a MG 151/15 as cowl gun is simply a mistake in an early aviation book and was simply copied by a lot of authors who didn't bother to check sources.

JG52Karaya-X
03-06-2006, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
the only thing i know is that the G14 and K4 we have in game are hungarian build which were fitted with factory mk108s
but we should have the Mg151/20 on the late war 109s as option because it was the most used gun on the german 109s

You mean the G10 and G14... those were mostly equipped with MG151/20s. The K4 on the other hand indeed had the Mk108 as standard armament

anarchy52
03-06-2006, 09:34 AM
1) MG151/15 could never fit. There wouldn't be enough space for pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
2) MK103 could not fit as central gun although special version was planed for K version, but AFAIK no serial 109K was ever fitted with this weapon.
3) Only 109 version that had 30mm MK108 as standard was K-4. For G series G6, G10, G14 it was either a MK108 or MG151/20. AFAIK 30mm were retrofitted to G6 rebuilt airframes.

Weapon for the future as far as LW was concerned was high ROF high muzzle velocity revolver type cannon (MG213 was it?). It's performance was similar to modern aircraft cannons.

Hungarian MK108 G10/G14 is probably a clumsy cover story for lack of research, an honest mistake on part of 1C (You don't really think they were brought in game to be just Hungarian fighters?). The notion that Hungarian built 109s had better performance was a deterrent from further inquiry.

JG52Karaya-X
03-06-2006, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
Weapon for the future as far as LW was concerned was high ROF high muzzle velocity revolver type cannon (MG213 was it?). It's performance was similar to modern aircraft cannons.

It's not only similar, it actually was the prototype for many of the cannons still used on modern combat aircraft.
The French DEFA 30mm is a 100% copy of the 30mm MK213 design, the US M39 20mm cannon on say the F100 SuperSabre is a derivative of the 20mm MG213 gun, the British "Aden" is another copy of the 30mm MK213, the Swiss Oerlikon 206RK and 302RK were another example of copies and last but not least we have the Russian NR30; guess what, a 30mm MK213 copy - of course noone ever payed license money or anything... Mauser (company still exists and builds the BK27 cannon for the EF2000) never saw a $ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-06-2006, 10:44 AM
"Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on"

Not everything - we gave back the VW factory http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

csThor
03-06-2006, 10:51 AM
Now look what good it did to Germany - now we have a VW Golf for a car!

*There's an evil joke about this car over here - Ger√¬§t ohne logische Funktion (Device without logic task) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Kocur_
03-06-2006, 12:26 PM
The revolver gun was MG-213C (Maschinegewehr) when in 20mm caliber and MK-213C ( Maschinekanone ) when in 30mm caliber. And basically all it took to change MG-213C into MK-213C was replacing 20mm barrel with 30mm one.

domenlovrec
03-06-2006, 12:33 PM
I didn't know much about 109 guns, but it's interesting to read your posts.

So, let me know if i understand this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif :

In game we have G-2, which has MG151/20 as a cannon and two MG131/13.

G-6 and so on have Mk108/30 as a cannon and two MG131/13.

Are F-2, F-4 and G-2 equiped with same guns?

Is Mk103 30mm? I've noticed Do-335 has this cannon. What is the diference (108 vs. 103)?

Kocur_
03-06-2006, 12:50 PM
F2: 15mm MG151 + 2 x 7,92mm MG17
F4: 20mm MG151/20 + 2 x 7,92mm MG17
G2: 20mm MG151/20 + 2 x 7,92mm MG17
G6: 20mm MG151/20 or 30mm MK108 + 2 x 13,2mm MG131

Do-335 has MK103. Difference between MK103 and MK108 is ammo and principle of action. Both fire the same projectiles, but muzzle velocity of them fired from MK108 is low and MV of them fired from MK103 is high, i.e. their trajectory is flatter. MK108 was light and compact, while MK103 was considerably bigger and heavier - it took a plane of Do-335 size to have it mounted to fire through propellor hub.

LUFT11_Hoflich
03-06-2006, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
"Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on"

Not everything - we gave back the VW factory http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BTW..
Anyone knows why the VW Beetle is out of production anymore? It's one if not the most reliable cars ever made, cheap, and tough. Now they're making that ugly UFO look alike instead.

In Mexico I think there were several plants making the Good 'ol beetle.

Not It's gone.

H√¬∂f...

VW-IceFire
03-06-2006, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
Weapon for the future as far as LW was concerned was high ROF high muzzle velocity revolver type cannon (MG213 was it?). It's performance was similar to modern aircraft cannons.

It's not only similar, it actually was the prototype for many of the cannons still used on modern combat aircraft.
The French DEFA 30mm is a 100% copy of the 30mm MK213 design, the US M39 20mm cannon on say the F100 SuperSabre is a derivative of the 20mm MG213 gun, the British "Aden" is another copy of the 30mm MK213, the Swiss Oerlikon 206RK and 302RK were another example of copies and last but not least we have the Russian NR30; guess what, a 30mm MK213 copy - of course noone ever payed license money or anything... Mauser (company still exists and builds the BK27 cannon for the EF2000) never saw a $ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To the victors goes the spoils!

Interesting information mind you...its very interesting that such a long line of weaponry was devised based on that design. No doubt even more recent weaponry bears the original mark of some of the work done.

I knew Mauser was building the BK27 cannon for the Eurofighter. Quite an impressive and efficient gun from what I've read. But I did hear that the RAF versions were not equipped...

Kocur_
03-06-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on

Would you like a list of non-German-origin, stolen in occupied countries: trucks, railroad engines, tanks, rifles, mgs, artillery guns, ammo, uniforms etc. used by Wehrmacht or sold to German allies in WW2? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

gx-warspite
03-06-2006, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on

Would you like a list of non-German-origin, stolen in occupied countries: trucks, railroad engines, tanks, rifles, mgs, artillery guns, ammo, uniforms etc. used by Wehrmacht or sold to German allies in WW2? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to mention food, people, pack animals, art treasures, national gold reserves? The Germans are hardly in a position to complain about the end results of their war.

anarchy52
03-06-2006, 04:48 PM
In the end Swiss made most profit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...wonder if http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif is appropriate

JG52Karaya-X
03-07-2006, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I knew Mauser was building the BK27 cannon for the Eurofighter. Quite an impressive and efficient gun from what I've read. But I did hear that the RAF versions were not equipped...

Yep, the RAF decided to have their 'phoons without the Mauser... they said its first of all too expensive for them to afford the extra tools and stuff to service the guns for a large fleet of EFs and the weight save improves performance (wonder about that). Anyway with modern fighters going towards more and more stealth I guess we will be back to WWI dogfighting soon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

JG52Karaya-X
03-07-2006, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on

Would you like a list of non-German-origin, stolen in occupied countries: trucks, railroad engines, tanks, rifles, mgs, artillery guns, ammo, uniforms etc. used by Wehrmacht or sold to German allies in WW2? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apples and oranges. The Germans sure did take whatever equipment they captured and used it for their own army or sold them to allies (as every other nation did/does) - but they never actually copied or retro-engineered something and then sold it as "their own" like most of the allied nations did after the war. *cough* MG/MK213, F86, Mig15, AK47, list goes on *cough* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

JG52Karaya-X
03-07-2006, 05:27 AM
Coming back to weapons:

It's also interesting that the USAAF envisioned a .60CAL gun for future use on their fighter planes such as the P47 during the war - this .60CAL would have been based on the German MG151/15. In the end the project was stopped (can't remember the reason) and the USAAF remained with their .50s

On a sidenote: Why the hell did they base it on the 15mm when the 20mm is only slightly different!?

JG52Karaya-X
03-07-2006, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
In the end Swiss made most profit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...wonder if http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif is appropriate

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif not appropriate - be sure...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif is

luftluuver
03-07-2006, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
My friend Gottfried Dulias flew the 109G-14/AS and his plane had 2 13mm MG's mounted on top of the engine and one 30mm Mk-108 firing through the prop hub. There is a thread over at TOCH on Dulias. Fron reading it, he looks like a fraud. Just too many discrepencies in his 'story'. He would not even come and explain these descrepencies.

Two that come to mind are he said he was based near Achmer when his JG was never based near Achmer, and claiming 3 Ratas in 1945 when there was none in the area.

Rammjaeger
03-07-2006, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:

Hungarian MK108 G10/G14 is probably a clumsy cover story for lack of research, an honest mistake on part of 1C (You don't really think they were brought in game to be just Hungarian fighters?). The notion that Hungarian built 109s had better performance was a deterrent from further inquiry.

I very much doubt Hungarian production quality was better than German. But I'm sure the G10 variant - which was AFAIK more advanced than G14, with a different engine - was never produce outside Germany.

luftluuver
03-07-2006, 06:35 AM
Hungarian 109s were better built than the German built 109s. Not sure how much 'slave' labour Hungary used but it was not as much as what Germany used. 'Slave' labour takes no pride in what they were building.

ImpStarDuece
03-07-2006, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:

On a sidenote: Why the hell did they base it on the 15mm when the 20mm is only slightly different!?

The predominant US fascination with A to A weapons during WW2 was high velocity and flat trajectory. If it shot fast and flat, the USAAF wanted it. There were all sorts of high velocity .50, .60 and 20mm cannon developed experimentally by the USAAF during the war, not a single one of which fired a shot in anger.

Basically the took the MG151/15 and adapted it for the 15.2x114 experimental anti-tank round that the US Army was playing with. They then upped the rate of fire and muzzle velocity, necked out the cartridge and played around with the base diameter a bit. It was a MUCH larger cartridge than the MG151, being some 20% longer and weighing almost 40% more. Muzzle velocity was over 1,100 m/sec.

While the .60 fell by the wayside, it was eventually enlarged to become the 20x102, the standard US 20mm cannon shell used in the M61 and assorted other cannon. So, in a way, the MG151/15 lives on in the current US aerial Vulcan cannons. The 15.2x114 was actually the original cartridge that the Vulcan was designed for.

Really, while it offered some advantages over the .50 Browing in the form of a heavier, faster and more powerful round, there were enough teething problems and drawbacks in terms of weight, recoil (more than the AN-M2 Hispano clone the US was then making) and rate of fire to preclude its ever being fitted to a fighter when the M3 and AN-M3 (20x110) became available and resolved their own technnical difficulties at the end of the war.

Kocur_
03-07-2006, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
The Germans sure did take whatever equipment they captured and used it for their own army or sold them to allies (as every other nation did/does) - but they never actually copied or retro-engineered something and then sold it as "their own" like most of the allied nations did after the war. *cough* MG/MK213, F86, Mig15, AK47, list goes on *cough* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Neverhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif? G43 (aka K43) is nothing but G41(W) with copied soviet SVT gas mechanism with hole in barrel wall, instead of that stupid muzzle cap.
MG-42 locking system is nothing but re-engineered Polish invention.

And what in the world AK-47 has in common with StG-44 - apart from the way it looks like? Concept is as old as pre - WW1, first execution was Avtomat Fiodorova of 1916. Soviet 7,62mm x 39 M43 ammo has nothing to do with 7,92mm x 33 Kurz Patrone (and a lot with mid-1930 German GeCo ammo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and internal desing of AK-47 is completely different and superior by far compared with StG-44 (AK-47 was based on American weapons btw).

Naturally Allies used far more German technology after WW2 than Germans used foreign during WW2.

berg417448
03-07-2006, 09:36 AM
Copying something to improve your own weapons was common on all sides....examples of German copying:

1. After capturing a British H2S radar set from a downed Wellington, the Germans copied the magnetron.

2. Over 300,000 Belgian Hi-Power pistols were manufactured by the Germans during their occupation. Not captured‚‚ā¨¬¶manufactured copies.

3. German troops captured American "bazooka" in Africa, they noticed that it was superior to the Panzerb√ľchsen they had been using. The Bazooka was sent to engineers in Germany for analysis. The result was the Panzerschreck, which was more powerful than the bazooka.

4. The Germans had some problems with the detonators they were using in some of their torpedos This problem was solved when the Germans copied what the British did to make their torpedoes work. They were able to do because they captured the crippled British submarine HMS Seal in May 1940.

5. The German sGrW42 heavy mortar was a developed directly from the Soviet 120mm mortar captured at one defense plant in Kharkov. The sGrW42 was used until the end of WWII.

LUFT11_Hoflich
03-07-2006, 09:49 AM
Naturally Allies used far more German technology after WW2 than Germans used foreign during WW2.

*cough**cough* rocket technology *cough* German Chief rocket scientist *cough* jet designs *cough* Man on the moon (made possible by this German Rocket scientist *cough*

In the end.. I think that the Germans were glad to work with the US instead of the Soviets. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
H√¬∂f... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Bastables
03-07-2006, 02:40 PM
http://www.ghostbombers.com/various/zeltweg.html

As opposed to just making stuff up and rambling about it you could actully check the tons of reports that exist and is generated out of an industrlised war. The above idicates that units in the south and east ie ones that sourced aircraft from hungery both luftwaffe and RHAF had 3cm cannon as standred on their g-14 and g-10s.

simply

g-14= G6 with imporvemnets and AM engine (mid altiude supercharger with MW50 injection). like the g6 they added on improments as the months went by.

The G-14 had 3cm MK108 if it were built by WNF Germany or Gayor Hungery (from summer of 1943 WNF built their g6 with 3cm gun). You don't just plug these things in a feild mod. Look between your legs in a g6 and the G14 in game: Notice how much larger the housing is in the G-14 to fit the larger 3cm mk108.

Gayor manufactured G-10 and g14 and suppled most of their stock to germany under their agreement

G-10= remanufactured g14/g6 to bring them up to k4 standred. So you have D type engine mk 108 3cm cannon as standred and other things like larger oil coolers and revised streamlining of cowels similar to K-4 and G-6/14 ASM. The concept was to remake old airframs more viable than having them fly with 1942 era engines and technology.

MG 131 was a comprimise, The MG 17 was declared obsolesent but the luftwaffe did not want to strip weapons out of the cowels or do major desgin changes. So the MG131 was desiged to fit in the same space as a mg-17 it is not a HMG or "medium" autoimatic in the sense of the m2 browning, russian UBS 12.7 or the mg151 (15mm). So you have a high rof but that's to cover for a small cartridge and lesser hitting power. In saying that it was better than having rifle caliber machine guns. compare the size and weight of mg131 mg17 vurses mg151, they are leagues apart.

Xiolablu3
03-07-2006, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Typical example of the Allies stealing everything they could get their hands on

Would you like a list of non-German-origin, stolen in occupied countries: trucks, railroad engines, tanks, rifles, mgs, artillery guns, ammo, uniforms etc. used by Wehrmacht or sold to German allies in WW2? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One funny fact I read on this subject was that Britain offered 200 Spitfires to the Swiss in WW2 if it would stop producing ball bearings for the Germans! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LUFT11_Hoflich
03-07-2006, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
One funny fact I read on this subject was that Britain offered 200 Spitfires to the Swiss in WW2 if it would stop producing ball bearings for the Germans! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

What was the Swiss role in the war? why didn't any country atacked it? Isn't/wasn't all the money stored there?

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f351/luft11_hoflich/Naziwith50.jpg

Xiolablu3
03-07-2006, 05:32 PM
They were neutral, they produced the Oerlikon cannons for the Germans, and I guess they made other things.

I am not sure why they never joined the war, I guess noone had any argument with them and they didnt want to get involved.

Neither Britain nor Germany would want another country to fight against, especially such a rich one. I guess they just kept out of it.

Gibbage1
03-08-2006, 12:47 AM
I wonder where those crafty Germans got the idea for a multi-berral rotating gun?

http://www.leverguns.com/desktop/Gatling-gun.jpg

I wonder where the Germans got the idea for a liquid fuel rocket engine?

Dr Goddard. von Braun used about 20 of Goddard's pattents on the V2. Including gyro-stabilizer and rocket guidance systems.

Ya. Only the Allied side stole idea's.

Kocur_
03-08-2006, 01:23 AM
I wonder where those crafty Germans got the idea for a multi-berral rotating gun?

They didnt as AFAIK they didnt produce any weapon with multi, rotating barrels, each with its own bolt, moved by external power source i.e. of Gatling arrangement. MG/MK-213C was gas operated revolver cannon - single barrel, multiple chambers, exactly like in revolver, but fresh rounds keep being chambered into chambers before firing position after being taken out of belt links, and empty cases keep being extracted and ejected from chambers after firing position.
Before Samuel Colt is mentioned - revolvers were produced for years before him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

JG52Karaya-X
03-08-2006, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I wonder where those crafty Germans got the idea for a multi-berral rotating gun?

http://www.leverguns.com/desktop/Gatling-gun.jpg

Looks so astonshingly similar to the MK213 - you could already say they don't have anything in common http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

http://212.84.179.117/i/DEFA%20554.jpg


Only the Allied side stole idea's.

Glad we agree...

luftluuver
03-08-2006, 06:27 AM
In August of 1944, he moved on to train in the Me109G Gustav. This training included gunnery practice. With a minimum of instrument training, Gottfried was cleared for combat. He and a handful of fellow graduates were assigned to Jagdgeschwader 53 ?Pik As?, stationed near Aachen, Northwest Germany. Their assignment there was to engage the escort fighters of the waves of U.S. B-17?s in order to allow neighboring Focke Wulf 190 units to attack the bombers themselves.
Gottfried was considered a newcomer, referred to by his elder pilots as a ?Haes-chen?, or ?Little Rabbit?. As such, he was assigned to be an observer of tactics. During one of these early missions, the pilot of a British Spitfire took him for easy prey. However, after a 15-minute dogfight, Gottfried disabled the Spit, forcing the pilot to bail out. The English pilot parachuted down near the JG53 base and was taken prisoner. Leutnant Gottfried Dulias and Leftenant Fred Browning had the opportunity to discuss the dogfight and the fliers? life in general. Gottfried commented that he believed that it was the superiority of his plane and not necessarily his skill that earned him this first victory. Instead of copy and pasting, why don't do some investigating. The only bases near Aachen that JG53 used were many miles away. Eindhoven, a major LW base, was one of them. He can't even remember who his commanding officer was or what Gruppe of JG53 he was in. There is no record of any Spitfires claimed in Tony Wood's LW claim list by JG 53.

Rammjaeger
03-10-2006, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Bastables:
http://www.ghostbombers.com/various/zeltweg.html



Great link!