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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:09 AM
For you luftwaffe guys

www.luft46.com (http://www.luft46.com)

look under the various section for the Sanger Amerika bomber.

Is there a similar Allied/Soviet aircraft site?

With the advent of the G0-229, I thought this might interest some.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:09 AM
For you luftwaffe guys

www.luft46.com (http://www.luft46.com)

look under the various section for the Sanger Amerika bomber.

Is there a similar Allied/Soviet aircraft site?

With the advent of the G0-229, I thought this might interest some.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:51 AM
Iris47 wrote:
- For you luftwaffe guys
-
- www.luft46.com (http://www.luft46.com)
-
-
- look under the various section for the Sanger
- Amerika bomber.
-
-
- Is there a similar Allied/Soviet aircraft site?
-


No need for a similar allied site as they won the war, any whacky ideas they had that were at all feasible were tried. (including a canadian flying suacer and a plane that had a hover cushion for landing gear)


The interesting thing about the LW is all development on unusual designs stopped when they lost the war so people construct "what if" scenarios.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 03:20 AM
-- war so people construct "what if" scenarios.

Its more than that. A potential development history, the first of its kind, vanished. Although that is fortunate for everybody, according to statements made by post-war German aces.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 03:40 AM
Actually most of the Luft46 projects were canned well before April '45 due to the worsening supply situation and the fact that they realised by 1944 that anything not ready for use by the end of the year was a waste of time.

Not to mention that in many ways the Luftwaffe was very conservative in it's procurement strategies.

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:27 AM
Also, many were canned simply because they would not work. Just because it has a 3 view drawing does NOT mean it will fly.

Also, I consider the Luftwaffa to be less conservative then Britin or the US in its designs. Simply because of the Me-262, He-162, and Me-163. 3 designs that both the US and Britin would have never contemplated putting into production because the jet itself was radical. The conservatives kept the jets and rockets out of aircraft till it was to late for the Allies to really use them in WWII, and even then it was in response to Germany's jets. Also, I consider Germany going to jets out of desperation, not innovation. They were desperate for an edge, and they took a chance on the Jet. A chance that paid off, but to little to late.

Gib

hobnail wrote:
- Actually most of the Luft46 projects were canned
- well before April '45 due to the worsening supply
- situation and the fact that they realised by 1944
- that anything not ready for use by the end of the
- year was a waste of time.
-
- Not to mention that in many ways the Luftwaffe was
- very conservative in it's procurement strategies.
-


"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:27 AM
The LW was more forward looking (not to say that it was visionary, just less conservative in that regard) than RAF in its treatment of jet engine research; just look at the treatment handed out to Whittle.

Heinkel had some early success with jet (and had a prototype flying by late '41 (type/date anyone?) I think) but, as far as I'm aware, they didn't (couldn't/wouldn't, dunno) meet the LW's bidding process so were at something of a disadvantage to Messerchmit from that political perspective.

fluke39
07-07-2003, 11:42 AM
bazzaah2 wrote:
-
- Heinkel had some early success with jet (and had a
- prototype flying by late '41 (type/date anyone?) I
- think) but, as far as I'm aware, they didn't
- (couldn't/wouldn't, dunno) meet the LW's bidding
- process so were at something of a disadvantage to
- Messerchmit from that political perspective.


He280

first flight 2nd April 1941

Me262 First Flight (Airframe no jets) 4th April 1941
first flight(with jets) 18th July 1942

also WTE_Galway wrote:
-The interesting thing about the LW is all development on ---unusual designs stopped when they lost the war.....

Apart from the ones the Allies nicked /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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Message Edited on 07/07/0311:45AM by fluke39

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:58 AM
The Canadian saucer is a wee bit late to be called a Luft'46 project, say about 10 years to late.

"The Avro Canada VZ-9-AV "Avrocar" designed by company Chief Designer John Frost was a true flying saucer that was produced for the U.S.A.F. and U.S. Army in the period 1958-1959. The Avrocar was built as a research vehicle with a pilot and observer in separate cockpits on either side, facing front. It used three Continental J-69's (licence-built Turbomeca Marboré) turbojets, turning a central impeller ("turbo rotor") to keep it airborne with downward thrust, with a vane/shutter system to propel the craft in any direction by venting thrust in the direction the pilot desired. The total diameter of the Avrocar was 6.2 m., with wheels and later tricycle landing pads for an undercarriage."


WTE_Galway wrote:
-
-
-
- No need for a similar allied site as they won the
- war, any whacky ideas they had that were at all
- feasible were tried. (including a canadian flying
- suacer and a plane that had a hover cushion for
- landing gear)
-
-
-

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:14 PM
Have you ever seen in the Movies where the bad Guys always seem to the coolest gear but still lose to the good guys ! ! !

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:16 PM
There were some rather wacky designs of the US that I know of, like the P-55. It failed due to a lack of a suitable engine. After finally being suited with a underpowered Allison almost two years late, it failed. Also, The XB/YB-35 program for Northrup. The flying wing bomber. Or how about the XP-56 Black Bullete. Rather odd little guy. To bad it failed due to bad design in general, but it flew! Unlike 99% of the stuff on the Luft 46 page. The US did test a lot of odd-ball aircraft, but none made it. The ones that did have promis were killed for political reasons. With these add-jobs that did make it into at least testing stages, I would wonder what designs did not!!! If you really think about it, they could be just as revolutionary as most of the stuff on Luft46. But since most of the companies still exist today in the US, you wont see any of the "failed" designs posted on a web page like Luft 46. Plus, it seems US X-planes dont have as big a fan base as German dreams scribbled on the back of a napkin....

Gib

"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:18 PM
here :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/prototypes.com/index.html

Théor¨me de Treiman : "Les choses impossibles sont des choses qui, en principe, n'arrivent jamais"

http://cheznoudeux.chez.ticali.fr/avions/sommaire.htm

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 03:07 PM
Hey Gibbage, you are aware the first germen jet, i think it was the HE 178 or something, flew in 1939 already?
And the Me262 first flew in 1942, design starting even earlier? In a time Germany was far from desperation?

To say Germany put those fighters into production just out of desperation seems abit like "i really really really need a reason to justify the allies late start into the jet age"

fluke39
07-07-2003, 04:15 PM
Bewolf wrote:
- Hey Gibbage, you are aware the first germen jet, i
- think it was the HE 178 or something, flew in 1939
- already?
- And the Me262 first flew in 1942, design starting
- even earlier? In a time Germany was far from
- desperation?


fluke39 wrote:

-He280
-
-first flight 2nd April 1941
-
-Me262 First Flight (Airframe no jets) 4th April 1941
-first flight(with jets) 18th July 1942
-

you'd be more aware of things too if you read the whole thread

also i think gibbage was refering to the more radical designs than just jets /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 04:56 PM
Germany had their flying saucers already in 1921- 3 years after flying with slow wooden biplanes in WWI!!
[I dont want to say that Germany invented this technology first]

The >Vril Gesellschaft< built the HAUNEBU and other strange "planes".

The dont used piston and jet engines!!!



kama1

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:28 PM
Nu Fluke. gibbage stated in other threads already the he considers the allies not putting into action earier was from their relaxed poasiton. While the german only used jets because they were desperate and din´t give them enough testing. which is certainly true in some aspects. nevertheless this is not the case with the 262 and other far advanced projects.
The Salamander, for example, was designed and put into production in an incredible short time. It was a success nevertheless. Other projects failed, and were canned. <-not put into production. You can say what you want, but in several areas, german technology "was" ahead of its time, aircraft and rocket/missle technology belonging to that.

In others the allies were ahead, like radar or ships in general.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:34 PM
The biggest thing that hampered the Me-262 was the lack of a suitable/ stable engine. And also thankfully the bugnling of Hitler himself. It would have been messy for the allies had the 262 been ready a year earlier and in larger numbers. But then we would have been forced to speed up the process on our own radical designs meaning Jets.
~S!
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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:38 PM
yep - once US got wind of Whittle's work they picked up on it very quickly (and that's where Whittle and some of the German engineers ended up after all). No doubt that higher bomber losses 'cos of early introuduction of the 262 would have focussed a few minds onto the problem.

A much bigger threat to bombing could have been some of the missiles such as the Rheintochter but that wasn't ready much before Feb '45 - that could have had a devastating effect on bomber streams.

Always too little too late with the more exotic German engineering, thankfully. But plenty of it went on to help the Allies afterwards.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:45 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- Always too little too late with the more exotic
- German engineering, thankfully. But plenty of it
- went on to help the Allies afterwards.
--------------------------------------------------

Captured german technologies were used extensively by Allies. ( btw, note that I am using the correct term "captured" instead of "stolen" )

Among the most important technologies were jet engines and swept / variable wing designs.

Look at this for example:http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/xplane/x5-i.jpg


It's a Bell X-5 - a former Messerschmitt P.1101.
First flight - 20 June 1951.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:15 PM
The Bell X-5 was to study some of the German designs they came accross to see if they worked. Sure some aspects of the German designs are visible in other aircraft, but they only flew the X-5 for a very short time. By then it was nothing new. Also, it was NOT a copy, but had to be radically re-designed to even fly. Also, the Soviets and VVS did the same. If you want to point to this and say "They are testing German aircraft because they are so much better" then I would like to remind you of the many captured Allied aircraft the Germans tested during WWII. Swept wings were nothing new, we had swept wing aircraft flying in 1940. In 1942 the Me-262 still had straight wings. Not till it got its engines in 1943 did they give it swept. Maybe the copied that from the British or US aircraft? Hummmmmmmmm.

Gib

"You dont win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:34 PM
What I am saying is that german projects didn't "disappear" or "failed". These projects and prototypes were used for aviation researches, experiments and developement after the war.

Here's one more example:http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/xplane/140-i.jpg


Alexeev "140" = Ju-287

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:49 PM
yep - can't dispute that was the case for some, but I don't suppose, all of them.

Always good to compare notes with the competition, once you've beaten 'em anyway.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:53 PM
Out of all the possible 46' planes we might get, I want this one the most.

http://www.luft46.com/dsart/ds500-1.jpg


----------------------------------------
Wow, I really look good on your six. Mind if I stay there?

Crabhart

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:00 PM
what about the Foo Fighter?

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:07 PM
Crabhart wrote:
- Out of all the possible 46' planes we might get, I
- want this one the most.
-
http://www.luft46.com/dsart/ds500-1.jpg

-----------------------------------------


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif LOL

Maybe then "luftwhiners" will finally stop calling russian Yaks - UFOs . /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif