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View Full Version : WHat happened to all those planes from the Battle Of Britain 1968 film??



Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 01:20 AM
I was just watching a new documentry on the UK History channel and it told the BOB story using out takes and unused footage from the BOB movie.

In it there ar at least 6 Buchon 109s flying together (no camera tricks) and at least 3 flying He111s. I never hear of any Buchons or He111's at airshows these days. (in fact hardly any 109s at all). Just wondered if you guys know what happened to them??

The Stuka looks like a radio controlled plane (very well done tho, some shots of it look real, some dont)

I can also make out at least 3 Hurricanes and 3 Spits without camera tricks, maybe there were more I'm not sure.

Amazing that the director was able to get all these warbirds flying and such good shots.

There is some great footage that was not put in the film, such as 3 he111's taxiing and taking off, also the bomber crews being briefed next to a He111 in a hanger. Shots thru the cockpit/gunsight of the Spits and 109's (I recognised both cockpits from FB immediatley!) Plus loads more.

Where are all these old German planes? I want to see them!

Heliopause
08-29-2005, 03:56 AM
Some Buchons were sold during or after the filming. I think one or two ended up in the US. Some received a real Daimler Benz engine along the way..( 109 in germany)
One Heinkel also ended up in the US I think.
In the eighties there was a Buchon at Duxford.

Dont know anymore at the moment.

NorrisMcWhirter
08-29-2005, 03:57 AM
IIRC, Bonehead, supremo of Battle Fields (http://www.battle-fields.com) told me that one of his mates still had a plane from the film. I think it was an Buchon Emil and I think he said it wasn't in a flyable condition.

Ta,
Norris

SnapdLikeAMutha
08-29-2005, 04:20 AM
I presume the 111s went back to the Spanish Air Force.

I have the book of the making of the film SOMEWHERE... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

rockgardenlove
08-29-2005, 04:22 AM
I dont know but its definently a cool movie.

JG52Uther
08-29-2005, 08:00 AM
From documentaries i have seen,the BoB movie was a GREAT help in getting a lot of Hurri's and Spits back in the air again.As for the Buchons,i believe most went to the USA (i think the pilots were Confederate air force?).I think they used Skuas as a stand in for Stuka's

73GIAP_Milan
08-29-2005, 08:05 AM
One of the Heinkels (with R-R Merlin engines - distinguished by their chin radiators instead of the traditional sleek engine cowling) Ended up on display in the German Flug Ausstellung Hermeskeil in the Eiffel.
http://members.chello.nl/j.wisseborn2/flug%20030.jpg

Note it's size compared to me - the figure in black -
In the plane's description it said specifically that this one had featured in the BOB movie.
I was amazed to see it there and it was one of the best planes over there on display. Only too bad that it could not be viewed from the inside.

The huge tailrotor behind it, belongs to a Mil-Mi-6 HOOK belonging to Aeroflot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif The Heinkel is really a dwarf compared to it.

berg417448
08-29-2005, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by JG52Utherhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.I think they used Skuas as a stand in for Stuka's

3 Percival Proctors were converted to flying Ju-87 replicas but they were not used because they couldn't handle dive pull-outs and were not certified as airworthy. Radio controlled models replaced them.

JG52Uther
08-29-2005, 12:13 PM
I stand corrected http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 04:29 PM
Thanks for your information, guys.

I have never heard of a He111 in a display in the UK thats all.

Not that I keep up with displaying aircraft at all so I'm probably wrong.

It would be a great aircraft to see flying and could probably earn its keep by performing in films if it were to keep flying. There are many many war films needing real german bombers.

It really annoys me when they use stand in planes or any war equipment which is not correct. I know its not alway possible but I find it immpossible to imagine the scene as real when its obviousaly the wrong machine.

Watching the Big Red One and Patton, the Sherman and M60 tanks (both supposed to be german panzers) just put me right off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

GuNzABlaZiN
08-29-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:
One of the Heinkels (with R-R Merlin engines - distinguished by their chin radiators instead of the traditional sleek engine cowling) Ended up on display in the German Flug Ausstellung Hermeskeil in the Eiffel.
http://members.chello.nl/j.wisseborn2/flug%20030.jpg

Note it's size compared to me - the figure in black -
In the plane's description it said specifically that this one had featured in the BOB movie.
I was amazed to see it there and it was one of the best planes over there on display. Only too bad that it could not be viewed from the inside.

The huge tailrotor behind it, belongs to a Mil-Mi-6 HOOK belonging to Aeroflot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif The Heinkel is really a dwarf compared to it.

Who's the freak dressed in black? :P

Blottogg
08-29-2005, 06:09 PM
Milan, that's a great museum, isn't it? I lived in Hermeskeil for two years, but didn't know about the museum 'till I flew over my apartment one day, and saw the Concorde mockup in the open on the other side of the hill.

The last flyable He-111 (a BoB movie veteran via the Spanish AF) was with the CAF, but crashed about a year ago, with no survivors. There is at least one Buchon flying in the U.S., and at least one each of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Hurricanes and Spitfires are also veterans of the movie. Sadly, quite a few of the aircraft used in the movie were scrapped over the years. The warbird preservation movement didn't really get going until the late 70's to early 80's, so those rare aircraft weren't seen as particularly valuable at the time. Oh, to have a time machine and a checkbook.

lkemling
08-29-2005, 06:48 PM
Also remember one of the Heinkels sent to the US crashed not long ago killing both crewmen

wayno7777
08-29-2005, 09:23 PM
There are a few A\C to track.

The film is also notable for its spectacular flying sequences, echoing those seen in Angels One Five (1952), but on a far grander scale than had been seen on film before. For the movie the producers Harry Saltzman and S Benjamin Fisz assembled a huge number of historical aircraft, contracting former Bomber Command war hero Group Captain Hamish Mahaddie to find them. In the late 1960s there were few restoration projects for classic aircraft going on and Mahaddie's efforts rounded up twenty-seven Spitfires, twelve of them flyable, and six Hawker Hurricanes, three of them flyable, which contributed significantly in saving the aeroplanes from extinction. Thirty-two Heinkel He 111 bombers and seventeen Merlin-engined Me 109s were also found in Spain. The Messerschmitts were actually Spanish-assembled versions officially designated the Hispano-Suiza HA.1112 Buch├┬│n. In addition, two Spanish-built Junkers Ju 52s were also used. Two of the Heinkels and all the Messerschmitts were later flown to England for completing the shoot. Filming was carried out at four airfields, Duxford, Debden, North Weald and Hawkinge, all of which were operational RAF stations during the actual Battle of Britain.

Black 6 was in the movie and she has crashed. The He 111 last year we know about. A few the the Spits are still around. I can only say that I've heard of a couple of the Buch├┬│ns have been re-engined with D-B's and a couple more are still around. As for the rest, it is a big list to track down. There are some in museums, some were scrapped and there are some flying.
IIRC even a couple of the Ju 52's are back in the air.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MelonheadUK
08-30-2005, 01:10 AM
For those in the UK, I'm pretty sure there's a bf109, a bf110 and an he111 all on display at RAF Hendon museum in the Battle of Britain Collection, next to a Spitfire and Hurricane. Hendon also has a bf109 in tropical markings in the Milestones of Flight Collection. Pretty sure there's an Oscar next to the 109, and a P51D a few yards from that. Fantastic museum, even better for having free entry!

Duxford also has a static bf109, but check out the participants list for the Duxford BoB air show in September! A bf109!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/upload/pdf/TheSeptember_AirShowParticipantsList.pdf

Abbuzze
08-30-2005, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by MelonheadUK:

Duxford also has a static bf109, but check out the participants list for the Duxford BoB air show in September! A bf109!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/upload/pdf/TheSeptember_AirShowParticipantsList.pdf

I think it will be the 109E cause the G6 of the Messerschmit foundation is not flying very often. And the 3rd flyable 109 is ... gone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (at leas for some years)
So if you see the 109 enjoy it, you will see 50% of all flyable 109Ô┬┤s in the world.

73GIAP_Milan
08-30-2005, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Blottogg:
Milan, that's a great museum, isn't it? I lived in Hermeskeil for two years, but didn't know about the museum 'till I flew over my apartment one day, and saw the Concorde mockup in the open on the other side of the hill.

The last flyable He-111 (a BoB movie veteran via the Spanish AF) was with the CAF, but crashed about a year ago, with no survivors. There is at least one Buchon flying in the U.S., and at least one each of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Hurricanes and Spitfires are also veterans of the movie. Sadly, quite a few of the aircraft used in the movie were scrapped over the years. The warbird preservation movement didn't really get going until the late 70's to early 80's, so those rare aircraft weren't seen as particularly valuable at the time. Oh, to have a time machine and a checkbook.

I don't live there but i stayed at friends in the vicinity of Trier/Wittlich and so we visited the museum. I had a great time there and have quite alot of photo's from it. I was surprised to find that Heinkel there amongst the HEAPS of old Russian and US planes they have on display.
Just too bad that alot are in a relatively poor state.

That Concorde mock-up you mention is a restaurant and parked next to it as a Lockheed Super Constellation. The museum has also a Ju52, a DeHavilland Vampire, several F4 Phantoms, a Fokker DR-I Dreidecker Replica, a Fairy Gannett http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif, lots of MiG's and a whole range of aircraft engines.
The next time when i'm near Hermeskeil, i will surely visit it again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

@GunzAblazin: http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif that's me when i still had short hair.. that pic is 2 years old now, and my gothic look has only increased.
Call me a freak if you desire, i'm a person who fits under many titles. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

EDIT: Sorry if this is a bit of a thread-hijack

Xiolablu3
08-31-2005, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MelonheadUK:

Duxford also has a static bf109, but check out the participants list for the Duxford BoB air show in September! A bf109!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/upload/pdf/TheSeptember_AirShowParticipantsList.pdf

I think it will be the 109E cause the G6 of the Messerschmit foundation is not flying very often. And the 3rd flyable 109 is ... gone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (at leas for some years)
So if you see the 109 enjoy it, you will see 50% of all flyable 109Ô┬┤s in the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


My God thats sad, I guess if China had invaded Europe and we had been thru a terrible war, the last thing we would be thinking of would be to save some of the Chinese planes for people to see 70 years in the future....and thats how they felt about the german planes in 1945....Smash these awful things up.

This must be the reason that there are so few flyable 190s and 109s I guess. Although there have been a few 109's made flyable, they always seem very accident prone and dont last very long. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I have seen so many Spitfires, Hurricanes and Mustangs flying that I am itching to see a German plane in the air...

Fox_3
08-31-2005, 12:09 PM
They used to have one of the '109s' from the movie at the Torbay Aircraft Museum down in Devon UK.

I don't know if it is still on display.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-01-2005, 01:23 PM
Hi,

As already posted, Bonehead's m8 does indeed have a Buchon 109. The guy's website is here:

http://www.realaero.com/

Good news, too - it sounds like it'll be airworthy again soon.

Ta,
Norris

panther3485
09-02-2005, 07:54 AM
Hi there, Xiolablu3,

Yes, I'm also fascinated as to the final fate of all those lovely birds and have enjoyed reading the posts on this thread.

Of relatively slight interest is the release year for 'Battle of Britian', which I believe was 1969. (Of course, one would think that during 1968 they were at some stage of working on it). But hey, what's a year between friends when we're discussing a movie made 3 - 4 decades ago? Slap me on the wrist for being so pedantic!!

Of slightly more interest, I also dislike the use of wrong machine types in films (be they aircraft or tanks). However, like you I recognize that it can be very difficult to get correct types for movies, especially German ones which in many cases were almost non-existent after the War.

I believe you will find the 'German' tanks in the movie 'Patton' were M47's, rather than M60's. When this movie was made, the M60/M60A1 series was the principal current service type in the US inventory, so they would have been very difficult, if not impossible, to obtain in the numbers required for the film. (Remember how many there were in that North Africa scene?)

The good old obsolete M47 was available in large quantities and relatively easy for movie producers of the time to get their hands on.

Best regards,
panther3485

Xiolablu3
09-02-2005, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by wayno7777:
There are a few A\C to track.

The film is also notable for its spectacular flying sequences, echoing those seen in Angels One Five (1952), but on a far grander scale than had been seen on film before. For the movie the producers Harry Saltzman and S Benjamin Fisz assembled a huge number of historical aircraft, contracting former Bomber Command war hero Group Captain Hamish Mahaddie to find them. In the late 1960s there were few restoration projects for classic aircraft going on and Mahaddie's efforts rounded up twenty-seven Spitfires, twelve of them flyable, and six Hawker Hurricanes, three of them flyable, which contributed significantly in saving the aeroplanes from extinction. Thirty-two Heinkel He 111 bombers and seventeen Merlin-engined Me 109s were also found in Spain. The Messerschmitts were actually Spanish-assembled versions officially designated the Hispano-Suiza HA.1112 Buch├┬│n. In addition, two Spanish-built Junkers Ju 52s were also used. Two of the Heinkels and all the Messerschmitts were later flown to England for completing the shoot. Filming was carried out at four airfields, Duxford, Debden, North Weald and Hawkinge, all of which were operational RAF stations during the actual Battle of Britain.

Black 6 was in the movie and she has crashed. The He 111 last year we know about. A few the the Spits are still around. I can only say that I've heard of a couple of the Buch├┬│ns have been re-engined with D-B's and a couple more are still around. As for the rest, it is a big list to track down. There are some in museums, some were scrapped and there are some flying.
IIRC even a couple of the Ju 52's are back in the air.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Thanks for that info m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wayno7777
09-02-2005, 10:58 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Enforcer572005
09-02-2005, 11:37 PM
I once had an air classics magazine from 1970 about the movie (would kill to find it) and it had lots of info, including pics of the Radio controlled STukas...those things were HALF scale, big enough to hold a real pilot actually. they also used alot of slightly smaller rc planes that you saw getting blown apart in the air etc.

7 of the buchons wound up wiht the CAF i believe, as did 2 of the Heinkels, both of which are destroyed now. I photographed and boarded it in the early 90s...pity. the USAF museum in Dayton also had one in storage in the annex hangar in 1990. The vast majority were SCRAPPED when returned to spain. I think david Talichet also has one in the US somewhere.

The last CAF Buchon was painted up in Marsielles markings when i photographed it on outside display in 1990 in harlingen. they since sold it to persons unkown. tHose things were even more treacherous on the ground than the original 109s, and they ALL wound up on their bellies or worse, as they always do.

the spits were all marks, including a mk2 that was actually in the BoB and belonged to the RAF ww2 flight. they usually used a coulple of Mk5s and some mk9s for close ups, but there were even some griffon engine jobs...look real close in the dogfights and you can see the long noses. they even had a mk24 that they put a fake spine on and a 3 bladed prop.

In the movie Patton, those were M-48s wiht muzzle brakes added to look german. the american tanks were usually M-41s, and the Brit tnaks were M-24s. there were 2 of the spanish Heinkels used in that movie to.

It was in the movie Battle of the Bulge that M-47s were used as tigers, and M-24s as Shermans. this was because the battle scenes in both movies were almost all filmed in spain, and most everyone else was using later tanks with fume extractors in the barrel. If you see "a bridge too far", there are alot of original vehicles in it, but there is a scene whre a Leapard is dressed up to look like a Mk4.

In the Big red one, the shermans used were Isreali M-50 super shermans wiht 105mm guns....dont laugh, as reservists using those tanks helped the 77th tank brigade Centurians hold the Syrian armies T-62s and T-55s at bay on the golan in 73. there just werent correct tanks availibe in Isreal where the movie was fimed i guess (did ya notice normandy looked a little arid?) although you will see some on rare occaisons , like the Jagpanther in band of brothers.

In kellys heros, those Tigers, which fooled me at first, were actually t-55s wiht turret and other aditions....the wheels are the give away.

its only recently that enough ww2 planes and vehicles have become availible (wht a little help from computers) to do accurate movies.

the most disasterous use of modern stuff was in the movie Pearl harbor.....those spruace class destroyers just looked absurd, as did those B25s on the deck of a nimitz class carrier.

panther3485
09-04-2005, 05:33 AM
Hi there, Enforcer572005,

Thanks for the info and my apologies - you are right about the movie 'Patton'. The German tanks were M48's, not M47s as I posted previously and yes, the M47's I was thinking of WERE in 'Battle of the Bulge'. It's some years since I have seen either movie and I got confused between the two (memory error, rather than knowledge error!).

Along with the M47, M48s would also have been available to movie producers in reasonable numbers through the late 60's and early 70's, even though they were still a serving type in the US inventory (in Vietnam, for example).

However, on the question of the 'Tigers' in 'Kelly's Heroes', I must take you to task there. (In this case, I have seen the movie again recently so I am not relying totally on memory of movies seen many years ago.)
The chassis being used for the mock Tigers were T-34/85s, which were cheaply and readily available in large numbers during this period.

They couldn't possibly be of the T-54/55 type. If you look at any tank from that series, the principal distinguishing feature of the running gear, when seen from either side, is the pronounced 1-2 roadwheel spacing gap. (That is, the gap between the first and second pairs of roadwheels.) The remaining gaps (2-3, 3-4 and 4-5) are very tight by comparison.

If you then examine the roadwheel setup of the T-34 series, the gaps are much more even overall (with 1-2 and 2-3 being somewhat larger than 3-4 and 4-5, but nothing like the 1-2 gap on T-54/55).

Other give-aways are:

*The overall proportion of the chassis (the 'sit' of T-54/55 being wider and lower than that of T-34)

*Turret positioning on the hull (T-34 well forward, T-54/55 also forward but somewhat closer to the centreline

*Roadwheel pattern type (those on the 'Kelly's Heroes Tigers' being of the 'solid' standard T-34 pattern, a type not used on T-54/55)

*Driver and idler sprockets noticeably different in appearance between the two Russian types.


Like most, I thoroughly enjoyed Kelly's Heroes and I appreciate the effort the movie producers went to, to try and make a convincing looking Tiger out of a T-34!!!! (Of course, being a dedicated 'Tank Nut' for 40 odd years, they didn't fool me for one second but that's not the point!) I think they deserve 9 out of 10 for their effort!

Anyway, don't mean to be such a nit-picker (at least, not consciously), but I've always had a passion for the armour.

Anyway, thanks once again for your post, it was very good. Thanks also for your correction and my sincere apologies once more, to everyone reading this thread, for confusing 'Patton' with 'Battle of the Bulge'.

Best regards,
panther3485

Enforcer572005
09-04-2005, 05:22 PM
no sweat. and thanks, as I kinda wondered if I was right about the T-55, as its been a few yrs since i saw the movie. It just lookes so blasted BIG. they did do a great job of fixing that thing to look like a tiger. it fooled me for yrs till i looked at the wheels, and then i was still fooled to an extent. Dunno why i didnt think of the 34.

I guess since Spain upgraded its tank inventory in the 80s, and yugoslavia kinda went to blazes and started shooting at itself with all that stuff, the studios have been forced to come up wiht more real stuff, or at least improvise some. Ive seen fake sherman tanks on truck chasis in the backgrounds. And dont forget my favorite improvisation....the T-72s in Red Dawn. those things were M-48s with fake turrets replacing the originals and other mods, sort of like the PUmas rigged to look like Mi-24s.

That worked so well that a couple of CIA agents freaked when they saw them on flat bed trucks in california, and followed them to see what the story was. this was before large numbers were captured in later wars. Im an armor nut to....I love the stuff in this sim. Ive made extensive use of the appropriate vehicles in my VVS Fighters cmpn that im about to post. Lots of fun to make a tape and go thruough all the cameras ive rigged to watch them in action. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

panther3485
09-05-2005, 04:12 AM
Hi, Enforcer572005,

Thanks for that! I haven't seen Red Dawn, but I'll definitely look out for it now....
M48's dressed up to look like T-72's???????
This I GOTTA SEE!!!!!

Best regards,
panther3485