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Copperhead311th
06-02-2008, 11:35 AM
Can some one list frim private to the top what the ranks were for the VVS in WWII. It's important for something i'm working on.
thanks,

Falcke
06-02-2008, 02:05 PM
Enlisted

Krasnoarmeyets
Yevreytor

_____________________

NCO

Mladshiy Serzhant
Serzhant
Starshiy Serzhant
Starshina
_____________________

Commisioned officers

Mladshiy Leytenant
Leytenant
Starshiy Leytenant
Kapitan
Mayor
Podpolkovnik
Polkovnik
General-Mayor
General-Leytenant
General-Polkovnik
General armii
Marshal Sovetskogo Soyuza


Courtesy of: Black Cross Red Star volume 3

PBNA-Boosher
06-03-2008, 01:17 AM
That last title under Commissioned Officers should read "Marshal Sovetskovo Soyuza." Usually in Russian the ending "ogo" is pronounced "ovo," and accompanies a noun as the masculine genetive ending for adjectives.

BWaltteri
06-03-2008, 01:41 AM
It's interesting that both Germans and Russians used similar name for Corporal: Gefreiter-Yevreitor.

Sweden may have similar rank but I'm not sure.

Metatron_123
06-03-2008, 09:28 AM
Gefreiter is more like Lance Corporal or Private first class, I think.

ViktorViktor
06-03-2008, 10:29 AM
Where did the political officers fit in ? Or were they civilians ?

SaQSoN
06-03-2008, 03:19 PM
Political officers had their own rank system and insignia before 1943.

Starts from Mladshiy Politruk (Junior Political Director), which equates to Leutenant in army hierarchy. Each subsequent rank equates to the same position in the army rank list:

Mladshiy Politruk = Army Leytenant
Politruk
Starshiy Politruk
Batallion Komissar
Starshiy Batallion Komissar
Polkovoy Komissar
Brigadniy Komissar
Divisional Komissar
Korpusnoy Komissar
Armeyskiy Komissar 2-go ranga
Armeyskiy Komissar 1-go ranga

There were also a separate rank name systems for Engeneer (non-combat) service of the RKKA, Logisitc service, Medical service and Military Lawyer service.
Navy and Naval Engeneering service also had their own rank names.

After 1943 institute of army komissars was removed. Thus, there are no separate rank system for political officers after 1943.
Instead each detachment, starting from company and larger, recieved so called "commanding officer's deputy for political questions", or simply "Zampolit".
This person's rank was awarded using the same rank system, as other unit members. Oftenly, he was selected from one of the detachment officers and was doing his political officers duty as additional (to his normal duties) job.

BWaltteri
06-04-2008, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
Gefreiter is more like Lance Corporal or Private first class, I think.

I am not sure, I believe there has been several grades for Gefreiter. PFC would be Obersoldat in German army.

general_kalle
06-04-2008, 02:46 AM
why was it neccecary for the Red army to have Political officers.

csThor
06-04-2008, 03:22 AM
Actually Gefreiter was the "first real rank" in the german Army. A fresh recruit would be "Schütze" ("Flieger" in the Luftwaffe, "Kanonier" in the artillery, "Reiter" in cavalry units etc) and would be promoted to Gefreiter after completing the basic training.

ViktorViktor
06-04-2008, 03:26 AM
why was it neccecary for the Red army to have Political officers.

To make a long story short, Stalin was concerned by the possibility of being overthrown by the soviet military. In order to combat this, he conducted officer purges during the 1930s and also introduced the use of political officers in military units in order to hold these units under surveillance and at the same time ensure that all personnel behaved as 'good communists'.

SaQSoN
06-04-2008, 12:22 PM
Stalin does not have anything to do with appearence of political officer institution in the Red army. BTW, they never were called "political officers" in Russia. This term appeared much later as explanation of the institution to a wide Western public.

They were called Komissars. First Komissars in Russian army apeared even before Lenin's coup'detat, in February of 1917. In this month, Russian Tzar Nikolay II was overthrown and power was taken by Russian parlament, called "Duma". It formed a temporary government, headed by Prime Minister Kerenskiy.
At the same time, Lenin's party together with other leftist parties in Duma suggested to send a parlament's commissars into the Army and Navy units.

Russian armed forces, particulary it's leaders had a strong feelings to monarchy and Duma feared (not without Lenin's propaganda), that they might try to restore monarchy in Russia. Those commissars had to ensure, that army and navy would not try "something funny" and also had to ensure human rights of the soldiers and other lower rank servicemen, who were oftenly humiliated by officers.
"Surprisingly" most of the commissars were members of Lenin's party, or other leftis parties. And their real task was to propagate communist ideas within army, to use it as mean to recapture the power for Lenin and his political allies.

Thus, the institution of Komissars appeared in Russain army even before comunists came to power. Stalin at that time was at quite unimportant position within the Party and did not took any part in this.

In the October of 1917 Lenin, with the help of loyal to him military units captured power, which almost immidiately started the Russian Civil war.
Though, most Russian Army officers did not support communists, there were many who did. While newly formed Red Army desperately required skilled officers for it's cause. Besides, there were many soldiers and commanders in the RA, who shared leftist idealogy, but weren't communists.
Thus, communists did not trust to ex-tzarist officers and those "allies", so each Red army unit recieved two commanding officers: a unit commander and a commissar. The later one was trusted communist, who watched over the unit commander and soldiers, had to boost unit's moral and discipline. He also had to take over the unit command, if he thought, it's commander does something wrong.
So, basically, Komissars were the communist party representatives and overseers in the army.

After the end of the Civil war, the institution remained in the army as additional insurance against possible coup d'etat and as something, that melted into it and become the part of the Army during battles of the Civil war.

BWaltteri
06-05-2008, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by SaQSoN:
Stalin does not have anything to do with appearence of political officer institution in the Red army. BTW, they never were called "political officers" in Russia. This term appeared much later as explanation of the institution to a wide Western public.

They were called Komissars. First Komissars in Russian army apeared even before Lenin's coup'detat, in February of 1917. In this month, Russian Tzar Nikolay II was overthrown and power was taken by Russian parlament, called "Duma". It formed a temporary government, headed by Prime Minister Kerenskiy.
At the same time, Lenin's party together with other leftist parties in Duma suggested to send a parlament's commissars into the Army and Navy units.

Russian armed forces, particulary it's leaders had a strong feelings to monarchy and Duma feared (not without Lenin's propaganda), that they might try to restore monarchy in Russia. Those commissars had to ensure, that army and navy would not try "something funny" and also had to ensure human rights of the soldiers and other lower rank servicemen, who were oftenly humiliated by officers.
"Surprisingly" most of the commissars were members of Lenin's party, or other leftis parties. And their real task was to propagate communist ideas within army, to use it as mean to recapture the power for Lenin and his political allies.

Thus, the institution of Komissars appeared in Russain army even before comunists came to power. Stalin at that time was at quite unimportant position within the Party and did not took any part in this.

In the October of 1917 Lenin, with the help of loyal to him military units captured power, which almost immidiately started the Russian Civil war.
Though, most Russian Army officers did not support communists, there were many who did. While newly formed Red Army desperately required skilled officers for it's cause. Besides, there were many soldiers and commanders in the RA, who shared leftist idealogy, but weren't communists.
Thus, communists did not trust to ex-tzarist officers and those "allies", so each Red army unit recieved two commanding officers: a unit commander and a commissar. The later one was trusted communist, who watched over the unit commander and soldiers, had to boost unit's moral and discipline. He also had to take over the unit command, if he thought, it's commander does something wrong.
So, basically, Komissars were the communist party representatives and overseers in the army.

After the end of the Civil war, the institution remained in the army as additional insurance against possible coup d'etat and as something, that melted into it and become the part of the Army during battles of the Civil war.

Thank you, very interesting!

That the commissaires originally supervised the 'human rights' of the soldiers means that there was a 'social demand' for them.

ViktorViktor
06-05-2008, 03:25 AM
Very interesting info, SaQSoN.

Thanks !!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Copperhead311th
06-05-2008, 08:27 AM
Thanks SaQSoN that clears up a lot for me. big help there.

but could you do one more small favor for me?

i need a list of common Russin names. names that
i can use for minor charecters in the story, both male and female.
and could you explain the differance in Surnames for me.
as i understand it....males and females in Russain language
have surnames that are gender based. Obviously, male names like Ivan,
Boris, Mikial, and even you name, Vladimir are common boy names.

but are there others that are the same. and i need comon femle names as well.
thanks.

as soon as i can get my internet back on at home i'd like to get you and Crazy Ivan together on teamspeak. i have aton of questions that the two of you could answer about life uner Soviet rule and life in Russia durring the war. I could study books, but the books here in the US would mopst likely lack the personal insight of some one who has lived there. both before and after comminism.

SaQSoN
06-05-2008, 12:29 PM
Russian (slovenic) surnames are mostly gender-related, you're right. But, surnames, that came from a foreing languages don't change. Also, male surnames, that end with vowel letter, do not change in the female form. For instance, Ukrainian surnames, ending with suffix "-ko" don't change.

Exhample: Kochmarskiy -> Kochmarskaya, Putin - Putina, Brejnev -> Brejneva.
But, Maddox -> Maddox, Fainberg -> Fainberg, Shevchenko -> Shevchenko, Khavilo -> Khavilo. :-)

As for common Russian names. As in many other languages, most of the Russian names have 2 forms: "Official", like Alexei and commonly used - Alesha, or Lesha for Alexei.
In documents, obviously, being used the official form, while in usual conversations - the common one, for most cases.
So, I will put it both forms.

Male names:

Alexei - Alesha, Lesha
Alexandr - Sasha
Andrey
Anton
Artem - Tioma
Bogdan - Bodia
Boris - Boria
Danil - Dania
Denis - Dionia
Dmitriy - Dima
Eugeniy - Jenia
Egor - Gosha
Igor - Gosha
Ivan - Vania
Ilya
Gennadiy - Gena, Genka
Konstantin - Kostia
Kuzma - Kuzia
Mikhail - Misha
Nikolay - Kolia
Oleg
Pavel - Pasha
Piotr - Petia
Roman - Roma
Sergey - Serioja
Timofei - Tima, Tioma, Tim
Vadim - Vadik
Valeriy - Valera
Vasiliy - Vasia
Viktor - Vitia
Vitaliy - Vitalik, Vitia
Vladimir - Volodia, Vova
Vladislav - Vlad, Vladik
Yaroslav - Yarik
Yuriy - Yura

Female:

Anna - Ania
Anastasiya - Nastia
Alla
Darya - Dasha
Elena - Lena
Elisaveta - Lisa, Elia
Ekaterina - Katia
Eugenia - Jenia
Galina - Galia
Inna
Irina - Ira
Janna
Ksenia - Ksiusha
Larisa - Lara
Lesia
Liliya - Lilia
Ludmila - Luda, Mila, Lusia
Mariya - Masha, Mania, Marusia
Marina - Marisha
Miroslava - Mira
Nadejda - Nadia
Natalia - Natasha
Nina
Olga - Olia
Oksana - Ksiusha
Praskovia - Prosia, Parasha
Sofiya - Sonia, Sofa
Svetlana - Sveta
Snejana
Tatiana - Tania
Tamara - Toma
Valentina - Valia
Valeria - Lera
Vera
Veronika - Vera
Viktoria - Vika
Yaroslva - Yasia
Yuliya - Yulia
Zinaida - Zina
Zoya

Well, there's more, but this is the ones, I can recall easily, so they are most common, I guess. :-)

As for Teamspeak session... Well, I am not sure, I even have the client proggy. :-) And my mic is somewhere... Well, last time I saw it deep under my table. :-)

Also my spoken English, probably, not as good, as written one.

But if it is so important for you, I'll try to do something about it.

Copperhead311th
06-05-2008, 02:57 PM
thanks.
how do last names work in the Russain langauge?
Are they differant for men and women?

SaQSoN
06-05-2008, 03:24 PM
Under "last name" you mean paternal name?

If so, then here how it works. Obviously, this is the person farther's name. Thus, it can be only produced from a male name. And it is gender-related too.

For example, Konstantin's and Mariya's farther name is Ivan. Then, full name of Kostia and Masha would be:

Konstantin Ivanovich and Mariya Ivanovna

Note, that paternal name is always used with the full name form. Saying "Kostia Ivanovich" would be totally wrong and even may let someone think, that Ivanovich is actully his surname.

Also, it was most usual in Russian language until late 1990s to place a surname infront of a name, when a person wanted to introduce him/herself, was introduced to someone, or when the name was written in documents.
So, when I would be asked my full name, I'd say "Kochmarsky Vladimir Vladimirovich at your service!" :-)

Copperhead311th
06-06-2008, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by SaQSoN:
Under "last name" you mean paternal name?

If so, then here how it works. Obviously, this is the person farther's name. Thus, it can be only produced from a male name. And it is gender-related too.

For example, Konstantin's and Mariya's farther name is Ivan. Then, full name of Kostia and Masha would be:

Konstantin Ivanovich and Mariya Ivanovna

Note, that paternal name is always used with the full name form. Saying "Kostia Ivanovich" would be totally wrong and even may let someone think, that Ivanovich is actully his surname.

Also, it was most usual in Russian language until late 1990s to place a surname infront of a name, when a person wanted to introduce him/herself, was introduced to someone, or when the name was written in documents.
So, when I would be asked my full name, I'd say "Kochmarsky Vladimir Vladimirovich at your service!" :-)

Ok let me see if i have this right.
English/American way:

My name is Lee Henderson II
My fathers name was Lee Henderson.
(i was named after him)
My daughters name is Breanna Henderson.
So here both boys and girls carry they last name of the father. ie. the Perternal Surname.

In Russain langauge: (if i'm understanding you right Vladimir)

The child of a man named Ivan would not carry his fathers surname but would rather carry a new surname based on the fathers 1st name? In this case Ivan.

and further more that name would be directed by what gender the child is, either boy/girl?

So if you have a boy child that child wouldbe name say IVAN Vladimirovich? and a girl child would be named Mariya Vladimirovna?

am i understanding that right?

SaQSoN
06-06-2008, 12:13 PM
am i understanding that right?

Not quite.

In Russian language a child recieves his/her farther's surname AND farther's name, with addition to the later suffix "-ovich" for men and "-ovna" for women.

So, your daughter's name in Russian style would be Breanna Leeovna Henderson. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In official document, it probably would be written as "Henderson Breanna Leeovich" (Surname goes infront of the name according to an old Russian style).

Your name would be Lee Leeovich Henderson.

Taking your exhample, with my hypothetic children names, it would be:

IVAN Vladimirovich Kochmarsky and Mariya Vladimirovna Kochmarskaya.

Also, when a person wants to show a respect in conversation, or letter in Russian language, he/she would call his/her respondent in double-name (name+paternal name) form. For exhample:
"Dear Maria Vladimirovna, I am glad to inform you..."; "Vladimir Vladimirovich, would you come here?" and so on.

Kurfurst__
06-09-2008, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by BWaltteri:
It's interesting that both Germans and Russians used similar name for Corporal: Gefreiter-Yevreitor.

I suspect this has a lot to do with Peter the Great`s reforms. He reformed the country after Western models, often with help of people coming from Western countries.

For the new model Russian army, the model was the Prussian Army, with many 'imported' Prussian officiers. It strikes me when I hear it how many German sounding elements there in Russian military language... obviously, these Prussian officers would 'drill' Russian recruits under Tsar Peter - in German, and it become part of the language with time via cultural influence. Much like in the Habsburg/K.u.K. armies.

Copperhead311th
06-09-2008, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by SaQSoN:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">am i understanding that right?

Not quite.

In Russian language a child recieves his/her farther's surname AND farther's name, with addition to the later suffix "-ovich" for men and "-ovna" for women.

So, your daughter's name in Russian style would be Breanna Leeovna Henderson. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In official document, it probably would be written as "Henderson Breanna Leeovich" (Surname goes infront of the name according to an old Russian style).

Your name would be Lee Leeovich Henderson.

Taking your exhample, with my hypothetic children names, it would be:

IVAN Vladimirovich Kochmarsky and Mariya Vladimirovna Kochmarskaya.

Also, when a person wants to show a respect in conversation, or letter in Russian language, he/she would call his/her respondent in double-name (name+paternal name) form. For exhample:
"Dear Maria Vladimirovna, I am glad to inform you..."; "Vladimir Vladimirovich, would you come here?" and so on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok I THINK i get it now.

But what about this:
Here in the US manners, according to my up bringing, reqire you to address some one as Sir or Mam. (madam)
like wise in the US miltary, an enlisterd person would address an officer as Sir.
In other words when given a command the response would be something like:
"Sir! Yes Sir."

So if an enlisted in the VVS durring WWII were to respond to a comand what would be the corrct response from the enlsited person to the officer. likewise would that resonse be similer depending on if the officer is male or female?
As in Yes Sir, or Yes Mam.
or would it be simply Yes Sir Comrade Major?
or Yes Mam Comrade Major?

avimimus
06-09-2008, 04:50 PM
There are some titles in Russian that are equivalent to Sir. etc.

It is possible to say the equivalent of "How are you doing Honoured Ivan Ivanovich" for instance.

This used to be common in English, but have fallen out of use (although the abbreviations remain):
Sir. = Sire
Mr./Ms./Mrs. = Master
Hon. = Honourable

I don't fully grasp the role or variety of such terms in Russian (perhaps someone could illuminate)

I do know that Tavarish is the Russian word translated as "Comrade" and is equivalent to meaning.

I remember laughing with embarrasment when Operation Flashpoint:Resistance refered to "Comrade Tavarish Guba" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif It made me suspect that the name "Guba" was actually derive d from "Cuba"... Btw. Did the Russian team ever provide a translated version of the campaign where they switched the sides (ie. so NATO were the bad guys)?

SaQSoN
06-10-2008, 01:27 AM
In the Red (later Soviet) Army there was no such addressing, as "Sir", or "Master", or whatever. According to the communist idealogy everybody were equal, so calling someone "sir", or "master" would be insulting to both sides.
Therefore, in either civilian, or military life people would address each other "Tovarisch" (Comrade), whenever they needed to speak in official manner (i.e., in the same occasions, where English-spoken people use words Mr./Ms./Mrs. or Sir/Madam.)

According to the Soviet military code of conduct, a serviceman should address another serviceman by his rank, with addition of "comrade". For instance, "Comrade leutenant, permission to speak?", or, "Comrade yefreytor, bring this rifle here!", etc.

Whenever a serviceman recieves an order from his supervisor, or hihger ranking serviceman, he should first salute and while saluting, say "Yest'!" (which could be translated as "got it!), or "Slushayus'!" (Obeying!) and then follow the order.
If an order consists of several instructions, then before leaving he should ask permission to execute (just in case, his supervisor did not finished yet, or forgot something).

Before the 1917 and in the White Army during the Civil war, an officers should be addressed by soldiers as "Your nobility", or "Your High Nobility" (the later one to the ranks, starting at Major and higher), without calling a rank. Whenever a rank was called, or in conversations between officers, it went with addition of "Gospodin", which can be translated as "Master".
Soldiers also had to add "Your Nobility" infront of the rank. For exhample, an officers addresses another officer: "Gospodin Polkovnik!"; a soldier addresses an officer: "Your high nobility, gospodin polkovnik!" After the February revolution of 1917, the addition of "Your nobility" was removed. After October revolution of 1917, addition of "Gospodin" was replaced by "Comrade" and all military ranks were removed. The ranking system in the army was restored only after the end of the Civil war.

In a civilian life, before the October 1917, people in an official situations would refer to each other as "Gospodin" (male), or "Gospozha" (female), which approximately equates to English Sir/Mr/Ms/Mrs.
In between nobles and city dwellers also was oftenly used a French analogue of Mr/Ms/Mrs addressing.