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michapma
01-10-2004, 01:46 PM
Long, long ago, on a server far, far away... Remember the page of user submitted tracks (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/games_elts/tracks.php) on the official site? It seems not to be very well maintained these days. I see tracks as being one of the best of IL-2's and FB's features, especially online tracks. They allow us to share things exactly the way we experienced them, or to polish the action up a bit through after-action editing. They make all the great FB movies possible. You knew that of course, but they also are a potential, practically untapped resource for learning. Why untapped? Most people use their own tracks, but how often do you watch other people's? Maybe because online tracks are large in size, or maybe because noone knows where to upload and download them.

I still have room on "my" server to host files. If Ubi isn't maintaining a tracks page, why shouldn't the community? There isn't a centralized one that I know of. (Lots of things slip my notice nowadays, though.) So what I propose to the community is to incorporate a tracks page into the Eastern Skies site. A training tracks (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/training.htm) page more or less exists already, but it's pretty stale since I'm the only one who's made any for it. Fair enough, that page can be for material related to the IL-2 User's Guide. The page I am proposing is simply one that hosts tracks useful to the community. The tracks can be for any purpose so long as it is useful -- especially educational or demonstrative -- or genuinely entertaining. Demonstration of technique is particularly useful, and for this purpose, training tracks are probably best, although they are a pain to prepare and more effort to install.

To keep things organized, I don't want to just host any and every track that gets submitted. There has to be some level of, er, quality assurance. Unfortunately I also don't have all the time in the world to review tracks, but I will do my best. I also can't get around having a subjective judgment, but I want to be fair. In order to help out in this regard, I ask that the track be submitted with the following information:


<LI>Purpose of the track
<LI>At least a brief description, so we know what we are looking at
<LI>Program version used to record: IL-2 or FB, along with patch number. This is essential for offline (.trk) tracks.


I also think tracks should be subject to these rules:


<LI>The tracks should not contain extensive sections where nothing of interest is being shown.
<LI>The track should come in a compressed format (Zip or RAR), accompanied by a note to the user (see point 2 above). Tell us about your track!
<LI>Tracks should not be more than 20 minutes long. Most should be much, much less, but a long training track might be quite useful and enjoyable. It is possible to cut up longer tracks into shorter .ntrk files, and link them together with a .trk file, as with the ALL.trk that comes with the game.
<LI>The file should not be too big. Less than 2MB is okay, and I'll be flexible, but the smaller the better.
<LI>If the track is a training track (accompanied by text), you should have tested the track to make sure that it works as intended.


So here's the deal: anyone and everyone can submit a track and possibly have it hosted online. I might also just have a special folder for temporary hosting, just so that those who don't have their own webspace can make their track available to download for, say, one or two weeks. These tracks that are not intended for the public page need not be special in any way and will not be described on a webpage. They also should not be ridiculously large.

You can submit your tracks to me at chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch. I also think it is a great idea to put links on the webpage to other sites that host good tracks.

So here's the general disclaimer: In making this proposal I in no way commit myself to hosting your track. You can be offended if I don't, but I promise that it won't be out of spite or snobbishness. I also can make no promises as to how quickly I will be able to respond to your request.

If I've overlooked anything and it comes to my attention, I'll post it in this thread.

Salute everybody!
Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

[This message was edited by michapma on Sat January 17 2004 at 07:09 AM.]

michapma
01-10-2004, 01:46 PM
Long, long ago, on a server far, far away... Remember the page of user submitted tracks (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/games_elts/tracks.php) on the official site? It seems not to be very well maintained these days. I see tracks as being one of the best of IL-2's and FB's features, especially online tracks. They allow us to share things exactly the way we experienced them, or to polish the action up a bit through after-action editing. They make all the great FB movies possible. You knew that of course, but they also are a potential, practically untapped resource for learning. Why untapped? Most people use their own tracks, but how often do you watch other people's? Maybe because online tracks are large in size, or maybe because noone knows where to upload and download them.

I still have room on "my" server to host files. If Ubi isn't maintaining a tracks page, why shouldn't the community? There isn't a centralized one that I know of. (Lots of things slip my notice nowadays, though.) So what I propose to the community is to incorporate a tracks page into the Eastern Skies site. A training tracks (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/training.htm) page more or less exists already, but it's pretty stale since I'm the only one who's made any for it. Fair enough, that page can be for material related to the IL-2 User's Guide. The page I am proposing is simply one that hosts tracks useful to the community. The tracks can be for any purpose so long as it is useful -- especially educational or demonstrative -- or genuinely entertaining. Demonstration of technique is particularly useful, and for this purpose, training tracks are probably best, although they are a pain to prepare and more effort to install.

To keep things organized, I don't want to just host any and every track that gets submitted. There has to be some level of, er, quality assurance. Unfortunately I also don't have all the time in the world to review tracks, but I will do my best. I also can't get around having a subjective judgment, but I want to be fair. In order to help out in this regard, I ask that the track be submitted with the following information:


<LI>Purpose of the track
<LI>At least a brief description, so we know what we are looking at
<LI>Program version used to record: IL-2 or FB, along with patch number. This is essential for offline (.trk) tracks.


I also think tracks should be subject to these rules:


<LI>The tracks should not contain extensive sections where nothing of interest is being shown.
<LI>The track should come in a compressed format (Zip or RAR), accompanied by a note to the user (see point 2 above). Tell us about your track!
<LI>Tracks should not be more than 20 minutes long. Most should be much, much less, but a long training track might be quite useful and enjoyable. It is possible to cut up longer tracks into shorter .ntrk files, and link them together with a .trk file, as with the ALL.trk that comes with the game.
<LI>The file should not be too big. Less than 2MB is okay, and I'll be flexible, but the smaller the better.
<LI>If the track is a training track (accompanied by text), you should have tested the track to make sure that it works as intended.


So here's the deal: anyone and everyone can submit a track and possibly have it hosted online. I might also just have a special folder for temporary hosting, just so that those who don't have their own webspace can make their track available to download for, say, one or two weeks. These tracks that are not intended for the public page need not be special in any way and will not be described on a webpage. They also should not be ridiculously large.

You can submit your tracks to me at chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch. I also think it is a great idea to put links on the webpage to other sites that host good tracks.

So here's the general disclaimer: In making this proposal I in no way commit myself to hosting your track. You can be offended if I don't, but I promise that it won't be out of spite or snobbishness. I also can make no promises as to how quickly I will be able to respond to your request.

If I've overlooked anything and it comes to my attention, I'll post it in this thread.

Salute everybody!
Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

[This message was edited by michapma on Sat January 17 2004 at 07:09 AM.]

Aardvark892
01-10-2004, 02:22 PM
Also something for you to consider would be a selection of tracks specifically for possible TrackIR and NewView customers. Let them see it in action, as it were. Other than that, wonderful idea! UBI should host this... take the strain off of your server.

SSgt Tim Schuster, USAF
8th MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, ROK

http://www.il2skins.com
http://www.uberdemon.com
http://www.mudmovers.com
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com
http://www.gibbageart.com

credit for MiG-3U Avatar is Unknown (I lost the link). Please let me know if it is yours!

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Aardvark892/PC_Stealth2.jpg

michapma
01-10-2004, 02:38 PM
Server can probably handle it. That remains to be seen of course, but it's a special server and a special account.

Depending on the submissions, it does make sense to organize the tracks by subject.

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

F19_Olli72
01-10-2004, 05:45 PM
*Bump*
Thanks, ill look over my tracks to see if i got something useful to submit.

p1ngu666
01-10-2004, 05:52 PM
tbh, i dont expect ubi todo anything but disapoint me :\
nice to see some community work going on tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

michapma
01-11-2004, 11:01 AM
bump

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

trumper
01-11-2004, 12:52 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Excellent ideas,a twit like me needs all the help i can get,i used to have the Training articles for the He 111,Ju 87 and others i think in my favourites a while ago but then the pages were unable to be shown,i think they were from michapma as well,Many Thanks

michapma
01-12-2004, 07:30 AM
No, the Me 262, He 111 and Ju 87 guides were done by Stewart. I don't know what's happened to them. I would be very happy to host those pages for him because of their great content, but I don't have any contact info for him. As I recall, these had their own domain names, such as www.me262guide.com, (http://www.me262guide.com,) but the have been gone a while now.

If anyone knows how to contact him, please let me know!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

michapma
01-15-2004, 12:04 PM
Noone has sent anything, so I want to keep this thread visibile from time to bumpy time.

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

trumper
01-15-2004, 12:28 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Please could all you good pilots and Ace shots post some tracks to help all of us in the below average bracket at least have something to aspire to,thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aardvark892
01-15-2004, 01:19 PM
Here's a bump, but no track. Y'see, I'm the worlds worst pilot. It would be embarassing to let anyone see me in action. There's a good reason I fix jets, not fly them (other than the fact I ain't got no college neither).

SSgt Tim Schuster, USAF
8th MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, ROK

http://www.il2skins.com
http://www.uberdemon.com
http://www.mudmovers.com
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com
http://www.gibbageart.com

credit for MiG-3U Avatar is Unknown (I lost the link). Please let me know if it is yours!

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Aardvark892/PC_Stealth2.jpg

JG14_Josf
01-15-2004, 01:46 PM
File sent:

292KB

High Yo-Yo

Description:
In an effort to control an overshoot a pitch up with an oblique or egg shaped vertical turn enables the faster attacker to gain angles as the target makes a horizontal turn.

I've been starting and stopping the recording feature while playing on-line and this does help with track file sizes.

I sent the track file to the UBi site but this email address: chapman @at@ eeh.ee.ethz.ch does not work.

I cut and pasted this:
chapman @at@ eeh.ee.ethz.ch
from the first post on this topic.

ctrl v = chapman @at@ eeh.ee.ethz.ch

Somthing is not right.

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Thu January 15 2004 at 12:57 PM.]

michapma
01-16-2004, 01:39 AM
Hi Josf,

Sorry about the confusion. The " @at@ " should be replaced by an "@" character. Email addresses only use the @ character to separate user and domain names, and spaces are illegal. I was just trying to prevent email harvesters from grabbing my email off this forum, but since it's already spread all over the Internet and my spam filters work pretty well, I'll just go ahead and post it explicitly:

chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch

Thanks in advance for the track. Old_Canuck has also submitted a track, so it's a good start! I will create the webpage today and if you get it to me I should be able to put it up before the weekend.

Cheers,
Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

michapma
01-16-2004, 03:18 AM
Okay! A new community tracks page (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm) has been added to the site. Come and get Old_Canuck's new gunnery track. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,
Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

JG14_Josf
01-16-2004, 11:10 AM
Mike,

I sent the track file just now and then realized the need to send a description in a second e-mail.

I am trying to fly on-line with my friend and long time wingman JG14_Hertt. We may be able to generate some good wingman tactics track files such as the Bracket, Sandwitch, Defenseive split, half split, etc.

I have now a, not so obvious, example of the sustained turn technique.

I can send the one I have now or wait until a better example can be generated. I use this technique often but most times the guys can see it coming.

BaldieJr
01-16-2004, 02:13 PM
I have been working on a mission/track file dump for a few days. Although the site doesn't look the way I want it too, it does function properly.

Registered users can upload missions and tracks:
http://downloads.fighterjerks.com/ (http://downloads.fighterjerks.com)

This site will be moving to its own server in a few weeks, so there will be plenty of storage as well as bandwidth.

Edited: Url now points to correct server.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

[This message was edited by BaldieJr on Mon January 19 2004 at 07:20 AM.]

Old_Canuck
01-17-2004, 12:16 AM
Mike ... Sir http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Please edit the email address on your original post. It doesn't copy/paste properly.

TY

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

michapma
01-17-2004, 08:12 AM
Good idea, I went ahead and edited it.

Thanks much for the submissions OT and Josf. However, it is likely to be tomorrow before I will be able to implement them into the website.

S!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

michapma
01-19-2004, 06:23 AM
Well it's taken me awhile, but I've got all the submitted versions up. I came down with something this weekend, so I've just now gotten around to it.

Thanks to Josf and Old_Canuck for their efforts.

More contributions welcome! Hopefully I'll have to redesign the page soon with categories. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

JG14_Josf
01-19-2004, 05:38 PM
Mike,

Get well soon.

I sent another file.

TheGozr
01-19-2004, 08:04 PM
Cool i did register

http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/showthread.php?s=d74f80478cac0deabd28d8a7ab93b4a7&threadid=134

I want to see what the other pilotes do.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

michapma
01-20-2004, 09:44 AM
Josf,

Thanks for the good wishes, I'm feeling sort of better. I got your second track, and it's amazing. However, I have some questions before I post it--check your email.

TheGozr, thanks for spreading the word. Have to admit I was a bit puzzled by your post at first. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif As long as nobody on that forum expects me to update that thread as well. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Meanwhile, I've added my own track. I had a fun mission where I didn't meet any enemy, just flew in formation. I'm making it into three parts, and I've got the first part up.

S!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

TheGozr
01-20-2004, 09:49 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
michapma it's a great idea this hosting and as soon as the pilots see that , they'll come and we will enjoy their perpectives of views...

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

michapma
01-20-2004, 10:00 AM
Let's hope so! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

TheGozr
01-20-2004, 10:19 AM
How do you upload files tracks?
I'm trying to look for the upload button..

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

TheGozr
01-21-2004, 09:05 AM
Bumpy_bump

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

michapma
01-21-2004, 09:08 AM
There is no automatic upload service. You have to send me the Zip or RAR file with the track and explanations by email:

chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch

We have some good tracks so far, and more promised. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

Bogun
01-21-2004, 10:49 AM
Michapma,
This is excellent and much needed project!
This project would help new pilots quickly familiarize themselves with different planes, stiles of flying, tactics used, etc. and for experience pilots to share their skills with the community. We will all benefit from it!

And it is good that you will review tracks before posting them on your site you can filter out some of lesser quality.
I would also like to point you to Sukhoi.ru forum here:
http://sukhoi.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=db9d6f89408a71cf188b40e30699a8a b&forumid=52
were Russian virtual pilots doing something like what you propose and were all tracks are segregated by the type of the plane used in the mission.
They made it mandatory for the names of the track to comply with the naming convention of theirs something like:
McFris_Fw190A4_vs_4xYak9aces_121.zip

Good luck with your project!

Regards,

AKA_Bogun
http://www.akawardogs.com/

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Bogun/Sevastopol.jpg

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum

JG14_Josf
01-23-2004, 01:21 AM
The Energy Game training track file is in the mail thanks to Mike and his patient tutoring.

I hope he finds it worthy of posting, and that anyone downloading it will find it useful.

The track is maneuver oriented so the gunnery bug does not deter from the tracks goal.

As far as I know, the track file can show someone with at least some understanding of Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering (Where have I heard that before?) "How to" employ the sustained turn technique.

Like this:
Sustained turn techniques (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm)

The track soon to be at Michapma's site includes the High Yo-Yo, lag turns, pure pursuit, Nose to Nose vs Nose to Tail turns, overshoots, and very little humor http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks Mike

Tully__
01-23-2004, 04:13 AM
Bump. I've yet to come across an idea of michapma's that didn't have at least some merit.

=================================================

http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)


Salut
Tully

michapma
01-23-2004, 06:33 AM
I'm blushing Tully, but I often get the idea to engage bandits when it doesn't have merit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Josf's track is possibly the best track I have ever seen demonstrating these energy tactics. I have just put it online now. A slightly edited version may follow.

Thanks for the endorsement everyone, the contributions are beyond any single person's efforts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

Extreme_One
01-23-2004, 06:38 AM
Yet another excellent contribution to the community, Michapma.
Thanks a lot!

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the RAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html).

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html). *NEW* Updated for FB 1.21

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/ex1_soon.jpg

GvSAP_Dart
01-23-2004, 07:15 AM
Email sent.

Basically, I just asked you take a look at the tracks on my site and see if any of them looked interesting to you - anything I can do to help the cause, you know....

I forgot to add that if you wanted to directly link that'd be cool with me, too. Share the bandwith, brother...

____________________________________
http://www.darts-page.com for more foolishness

michapma
01-24-2004, 11:27 AM
Hi all,

Two new tracks have been added today:

1) A demonstration of a defensive team tactic by the skilled JG14 Hertt and Josf.

2) A defense againse a prolonged boom-and-zoom attack, including the use of TrackIR to follow the opponent. I try to show how to proceed when caught at a severe energy disadvantage against a skilled opponent. Emphasis is on watching the attacker and timing evasives.

Here is the link again:
Community tracks page (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)

Please post your comments on any of the tracks in this thread. We also need more submissions...

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JG14_Josf
01-24-2004, 12:26 PM
I have one, soon to be sent, showing an enemy trying to employ the rolling scissors. We both run out of energy. The I-16 makes one roll around 360 degrees, while my evasive roll to avoid the overshoot goes around for 180. Upside down on my end looking back the I-16 stalls out just before making the shot.

Thanks for all the good press Mike!

michapma
01-24-2004, 04:12 PM
The scissors maneuvers are ideal candidates for track demonstrations, because it is a wildly misunderstood maneuver and very difficult to visualize.

Oh man, I have just spent a lot of time today reading and writing for the user's guide, all about combat and engine management. I really hope it will prove to be useful to a lot of people! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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JG14_Josf
01-24-2004, 09:04 PM
Anyone interested in a "how to" deal with one of those guys that just does not let go?

The kind of player that will follow you through clouds, dives, AAA, Friendly fighters, your best evasive maneuvers, and still keep on going like the energizer bunny?

Would anyone like a demonstration of one of those boring flights where you come out of the sun and bounce someone that is either not paying attention, gone to get another beer, does not have the sonar going on, etc?

I can post these if anyone is interested.

Does anyone have any requests?

Old_Canuck
01-24-2004, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Anyone interested in a "how to" deal with one of those guys that just does not let go?

The kind of player that will follow you through clouds, dives, AAA, Friendly fighters, your best evasive maneuvers, and still keep on going like the energizer bunny?

Would anyone like a demonstration of one of those boring flights where you come out of the sun and bounce someone that is either not paying attention, gone to get another beer, does not have the sonar going on, etc?

I can post these if anyone is interested.

Does anyone have any requests?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm interested in learning from any of your tracks JG14_Josf. ~S~

Mike this is a great resource that's been needed for a long time. All the best to you.

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

F19_Ob
01-25-2004, 05:31 AM
great effort michapma!

-S-

michapma
01-25-2004, 06:33 AM
LOL Josf. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was just sitting around one day thinking what a shame it is that they don't maintain the tracks page anymore. Then it hit me like a ton of wet cabbage... duh!

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JG14_Josf
01-25-2004, 11:13 AM
Mike,

There is some interest! Thanks for the note Old_Canuck.

Way back when I first started playing combat flight sims there were many helpfull players willing to show me the ropes, and of course the often suggested reference "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw was also available.

However, this replay feature is something new.

The rolling scissors for example is not easily understood with words or with diagrams, but when it can be demonstrated in real time with 3D rendering, in simulated combat, then the capability to communicate increases.

I think the Rolling_Scissors training track file is a true representation of the rolling scissors maneuver and it is now posted. The maneuver was limited in duration by low levels of excess energy, but, none the less, it shows all the factors that determine a rolling scissors.

The rolling scissors, being a maneuver to control an overshoot, or in other words to place your opponent in front, is unlike the flat scissors in that a rolling scissors includes a vertical component, and it is this vertical component that controls relative forward progress.

I think the importance of the vertical component to controls forward progress should become clear to anyone trying a flat scissors if at the time the flat scissors is being performed; the pilot at that time considers how much more effective he would be able to control his progress ahead of the opponent or the opponents progress ahead of him, if, at that time, he was able to point the nose up. If one of the guys in the flat scissors is able to point his nose up while the other guy is not able to point the nose up then the one not able to point the nose up is going to shoot out ahead of the one that is able to point the nose up.

It makes a lot of sense to me. An overshoot occurs when one plane is going faster than another plane in relative forward progress. First of all this progress must be in the same direction more or less because that is what is required for one plane to aim at the other, and since speed is not desired when trying to keep the other plane in front, and since going up tends to reduce speed, then going up will be much more suited toward controlling an overshoot than a comparible turn going down or flat. A rolling scissors is two guys trying to force each other out in front and they both employ the advantage of speed reduction when pointing the nose up. The one that can maintain enough energy to maneuver while spending more time going up, and slowing down, will avoid getting shot. The difficulty in this lies in energy control. Energy is what forces one plane out in front of the other but energy is required to maneuver. If one pilot is able to use more energy toward going up than the other, while the opponent spends more of his energy going flat or down, then which one will shoot out ahead of the other?

Keep in mind that during the rolling scissors track file the 109 went into the engagement with more energy than the I-16, therefore an overshoot was inevitable.
The I-16 pilot rolled around quickly with little upward movement. He was prepared to quickly get in close, to minimize separation, and shoot the overshooting 109 down. The 109 simply forced things to be too close. The 109 could have kept power off, could have tried to slow down more, perhaps could have even used flaps, could have turned harder, could have employed a Flat Scissors. However the 109 would not have had enough energy to go up without engine power (note the stall warning on top of the 109's roll). A flat scissors move by the 109 may have worked better than the pitch up rolling scissors move.

How many guys are able to employ the flat scissors against an I-16 while flying a 109F2?

The 109 in the track file does power up and does go vertical. However, this is not enough to stay out of trouble. The 109 rolls to place the lift vector above the I-16's nose and then uses the last bit of energy to increase angles off the nose, and the I-16 is not able to follow.
The flat scissors move would have been a race to see who could slow down quicker. The rolling scissors is an energy control maneuver that uses a vertical component to gain relative possition.

Please keep in mind that a better example of the rolling scissors would include a few more rotations around an imaginary axis as if both planes were tied to the same pole, or like the famous double helix in genetics. The winner of a rolling scissors will be the one spending more time going up, at least that is how I understand it.

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Sun January 25 2004 at 10:24 AM.]

trumper
01-25-2004, 12:23 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Great page Mike,and a BIG thanks to all those willing to help.
Quick question,does the new 1.22 patch affect any of the tracks posted,Many thanks all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

michapma
01-25-2004, 01:15 PM
That's a great explanation Josf, should I paste it into the readme file inside the Zip?

trumper, the playback of gunnery is very poor in 1.22, as noted by Oleg in his post-patch-release comments. It's not a bug, it's an undesired feature. Also, normal differences apply. For exmaple, if a track was recorded with 1.21 (or earlier), the in-cockpit sounds played back with 1.22 will sound differently than at the time the track was recorded--in effect, you don't hear what the pilot heard when flying.

c!

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JG14_Josf
01-25-2004, 01:40 PM
Mike,

Yes please do paste the explanation into a readme.

I am working now on a session flying with JG14_Hertt that was recorded after the half Split maneuver posted on your site.

This new track file should show how the line abreast formation is maintained with Tac Turns, out and return maneuvers, coordinated split S maneuvers and one odd climbing roll turn thing.

This is a big file but I see no reason to cut it down. I can explain with text and by example the many reasons why teamwork is so effective. I can include an example of what happens when separation does occur and the file also includes how to reform after separation.

One very important aspect of teamwork, that is also included in this file, concerns how to drag and how to maneneuver to clear a drag.

Much can be done wrong during drag maneuvers and this example should show clearly how things can work effectively.

GoodKn1ght
01-25-2004, 02:27 PM
i think this is a great idea. kudos to you. i just hope most of the tracks will feature human vs human. and not human vs cr@p AI. I would be very interested in seeing a rolling scissors maneuver, i still have no clue what it looks like.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Old_Canuck
01-25-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
i think this is a great idea. kudos to you. i just hope most of the tracks will feature human vs human. and not human vs cr@p AI. I would be very interested in seeing a rolling scissors maneuver, i still have no clue what it looks like.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With respect GoodKn1ght, do you ever have a kind word to say?

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

GoodKn1ght
01-25-2004, 08:37 PM
i meant that as a compliment. ill rephrase it so its more clear.

good idea for hosting tracks, i like this idea. good job. please no AI tracks though, people will learn more from online tracks. I hope to submit a track myself to help others. Please accept these kind words.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

karost
01-25-2004, 11:34 PM
Hi, michapma your project very good source meterial for new pilot , it they see a track with text description that will improve his knowledge and skill fast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Hey, JG14_Josf hope you remember me , I 'am the one who ask oleg about "Energy Maneuver Diagram" but just only you share me a knowledge

I would like to ask you how to apply "High speed attack" [offensive mode] from top level ,
as I play VEF2 I have to climb follow 109 frieds at over 7,000 meter to gaint attitude advantage and Yak stay below , when I drive to attack ( from 7,000 to 4,000 meter , -60 degree drive ) I have to control my speed not reach over 750 km/h by manual pitch and open full radiator , when I get close for shot the Yak pull up hard loop , event I line the gun with defrection angle but 20mm not hard to knock Yak down in one pass and I have to turn my energy back to attitude advatage again coz at 4000m the good yak's team waint to eat me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

or any pilot know the trick ple share http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thank you

JG14_Josf
01-26-2004, 01:03 AM
I just submitted a file called Teamwork.
It goes on for 20 minutes and only once was someone shot down. What a colossal boar!

I find no better way to play the game then the example presented in Teamwork, unless, that is, we can manage to coordinate another rotte into a schwarm. Now that is really getting into it.

To Goodn1ght,

Check out the training file titled Rolling Scissors and see what you think, but please understand that putting labels on things is neccessary for communication. The label is not the thing. Therefore the maneuver called Rolling Scissors is not something done by fighter pilots, instead it is a way to communicate what a fighter pilot may be capable of doing. Understand? The label is not the thing and the fighter pilot does not perform a rolling scissors followed by a high yo-yo and finish off with a lag displacement roll. The figher pilot shoots down the enemy plane. I'm sure you understand that part. The training file was made on-line in the Greatergreen server and the I-16 was flown by Thunderbolt56. Thunderbolt56 was shooting up HE111's and I tried to stop him. What happened during the slice of time captured in the training file does fit all the criteria that describes a rolling scissors as far as I can tell. Check it out.


Karost,

If you could be a little more specific as to what you are looking for then I may be able to custom fit a training file. If on the other hand all you are looking for is a discussion of something specific then it may be better to post a new thread or move this to e-mail.

I do remember the Energy Manueverability discussion. On that note: there is a really good book related to that subject called "Boyd" by Robert Coram.

SKULLS_LZ
01-26-2004, 06:07 PM
Hey Chap! Thanks for the track hosting thing. As to your kind inquiry about the SKULLS, we're doing fine thanks!

S'lute!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yeah I vulched ya. Now put a cork in it and pick another base before I bust a c@p in your sorry @ss.

trumper
01-27-2004, 02:24 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifThis is a fantastic site and needs making to a sticky to help all people on this forum,bumpity bump http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

michapma
01-27-2004, 04:30 AM
Very glad to hear it LZ! And feel free to make a track contribution. Maybe I'll come online, shoot you down and post a track. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Your sig still cracks me up every time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've just posted Josf's Teamwork track. It provides real insight into the practice of team tactics. One sees how the cool-headed comms and increased situational awareness--not to mention having an extra set of guns around--make a team very hard to beat. And he thought I would find it long and boring. If you're not well trained in team tactics you owe it to yourself to have a look at this eye-opener, although it is a 3.5MB download.

Apparently a couple of the files disappeared from the page, I think I had some confusion when I transferred files from home, and put an older version of the page up. They're all back now.

Enjoy, and let's see those tracks! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mike

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michapma
01-27-2004, 10:14 AM
Had to update the page again, the Rolling Scissors track was missing. That makes nine tracks and counting...

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JG14_Josf
01-28-2004, 09:51 AM
Next on my list is the lag displacement roll.

Does anyone really understand this maneuver?

As far as I can tell it is a High Yo-Yo where the attacking plane rolls out of the turn after the pitch up instead of into the turn and this displaces or causes greater separation (the reasoning behind the pitch up).

The separation is need to place the attackers wide radius pursuit curve inside the smaller radius curve of the defending plane.

Where the manevuer causes confusion for me concerns the application of rudder. I think the idea is to rotate the tail around in a wide arc as the vector roll points the nose inside the defenders turn. The tail scribing a larger arch increases the effective turn rate relative to the enemy plane.

Anyone have a good track file showing a vector or lag displacement roll?

SKULLS_LZ
01-28-2004, 09:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
Very glad to hear it LZ! And feel free to make a track contribution. Maybe I'll come online, shoot you down and post a track. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now there's a track I'm sure EVERYONE would enjoy! Including me

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michapma
01-29-2004, 07:45 AM
Josf, having such a visualization for the lag displacement roll described in Shaw would be useful. I wonder if it isn't that kind of maneuver that many approximate intuitively, but could improve dramatically with a bit of study.

LZ, it would more likely be you taking me out with your rear gunner. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

A few folks have expressed interest in the formation flying track, so I'm going to make the second part a priority. It's done, I just need to write the .msg file for it. Close formation flying is fun, but hardly relaxing! I notice that I'm abnormally tense after doing it very long.

What ideas does anyone have for classifying the tracks? We are clearly getting lots of great team tactics tracks from JG14, and there are a few combat maneuver tracks. I plan to make a CEM track, and might add a couple of other flight/aircraft control instructive tracks. Someone has pointed out the difference between fighting AI and humans. Maybe there can be a separate section for fighting AI?

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JG14_Josf
01-29-2004, 02:51 PM
Michapma,

In the book Boyd by Robert Coram there is also a description of the Barrel Roll Attack from John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study. In Boyd's description there are references recommending the employment of top or bottom rudder depending upon how the opponent reacts.

I do not think that such a maneuver would be instictive for all but the very talented or very experiences players or real pilots. In the first place the maneuver requires that just the right amount of separation be maintained inside the opponents turn and then it is very important to correctly time the pitch up. Many players go right at the oppenent and then turn at the opponent which, I think, is the natural tendency.

It may just be that my climb up the learning curve was slow.
It took me a long time before understanding something as simple as a lead turn. Here too the maneuver requires just the right amount of separation and timing. The first time my instructor succeeded in teaching me how to employ a lead turn I was amazed at how simple and effective it worked, and then I wondered why it was so hard to understand.

A lead turn, in my opinion, would be a much more likely move a player would make that could be done without recognizing how it works or what it is called. Anyone who first avoids a head-on and then turns early into a counter attack would in effect be making a lead turn.

The barrel roll attack on the other hand requires that the attacker think well ahead of the immediate situation.

I thought of trying this move out last night while chasing down a P-39 who obviously did not see me closing on his low 6. It occured to me at the very moment that I would need to vector parrallel to the target if a barrel roll attack were to happen that he could then see me. It worked out well that I chose instead to simply stay in his blind spot.

I think the barrel roll attack or the lag displacement roll would work really good in those situation where the attacker is trying to cut into the targets turn with a lot of lead angle. Placing the target at 2 or 10 oclock the attack is set up for a snap shot once the two planes cross paths, but for a barrel roll attack the pilot pitches up as distance closes then instead of rolling in the same direction as the targets turn the attacker rolls opposite the targets turn. Here again the pilot must do something that is not natural. I think it is more natural to roll in the direction the target is going.
It does make sense however to lag roll or barrel roll the opposite way because this allows the attacker to keep the target in view for one thing and for another thing the attacker displaces his possition from inside the targets turn to a controlable and therefore correct distance outside the targets turn. Then all that is needed is a gravity assisted split S type maneuver to regain angles and possition in the targets rear hemisphere.
Going back to the high lead angle snap shot possition the attacker has fewer options and after the barrel roll maneuver the attacker is in much better shape.

The rudder use appears to be done to vector the nose either up or down relative to the horizon while the roll is done. Pointing the nose down is desired if the target continues a flat turn or even an escape. Using rudder to help point the nose up, I think, is used to maintain separation if the target maneuvers into the the attack. At that point the attack is no longer going fit the description of a barrel roll attack.

Back to the attacker closing, for example: with a target at 2 oclock and the target is turning left; the attacker could go for the snap shot or he could instead pitch up for separation. After the pitch up the attacker can let the target dissapear under his plane as he rolls left for a left turn and down or he can roll right and keep the target in sight and then pitch down into the attack.
I guess it is possible that some players will find this to be an intuitive maneuver; there are a whole lot of really good combat fighter sim pilots.

Separating the training track files from the non-text-edited track files sounds like a good idea to me.

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Thu January 29 2004 at 02:00 PM.]

michapma
02-15-2004, 10:14 AM
Oh, uh... bump.

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JG14_Josf
02-26-2004, 02:04 PM
Mike,

Where are you?


Are you OK?

I sent two more track files to your web page.

Setup

and

Scissors