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Capt._Tenneal
06-08-2004, 01:02 PM
Does anyone have any anecdotes or stories or "pilot recalls" of the times when the late US or UK planes like the Ponys or Griffon Spits met or fought the late-model prop Yaks or La-7s or -9s in Korea ? I'm interested in how they compared to each other when they finally met in RL. Thanks.

Capt._Tenneal
06-08-2004, 01:02 PM
Does anyone have any anecdotes or stories or "pilot recalls" of the times when the late US or UK planes like the Ponys or Griffon Spits met or fought the late-model prop Yaks or La-7s or -9s in Korea ? I'm interested in how they compared to each other when they finally met in RL. Thanks.

p1ngu666
06-08-2004, 01:05 PM
in ww2 yaks/la's won
soviet ace was escorting hurt b17, 2 stangs showed up, attacked la7's, russkies quickly reversed the situation and got a stang or 2
stangs thought they was 190's.

in korea americans did better from what ive read. one sided tho :|

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BuzzU
06-08-2004, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
in ww2 yaks/la's won
soviet ace was escorting hurt b17, 2 stangs showed up, attacked la7's, russkies quickly reversed the situation and got a stang or 2
stangs thought they was 190's.

in korea americans did better from what ive read. one sided tho :|

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I've always questioned this story. It was the top Russian ace (Kozhedub) who shot down the P-51's. Since it was a mistaken identity fight. Who's to say the Americans didn't realize it was Russians, and stopped fighting. I've never heard an account of this fight, only the results of it.

In a straight up fight in Korea. They didn't do as well.

I think the basis of the question is which plane is better, and you can't judge it on one fight against the top ace.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-22.jpg

Dammerung
06-08-2004, 01:50 PM
Erich Hartmann had an encounter like that, it's in his biography. He was Going to attack and the Russians thought he was one of the Escort Mustangs, and the Russians attacked the American Mustangs while he walked away from it. Happened to him again when he was attacking an A-20.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

p1ngu666
06-08-2004, 02:17 PM
easy mistake to make

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Capt._Tenneal
06-08-2004, 02:28 PM
I guess this can apply not just to Korea but any immediate postwar combat where WW II aircraft were still used.

Here's a link (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_255.shtml) I found (don't know how reliable) that lists some IAF victories in the 1948 War of Independence. Interesting matchups... Spits downing Mosquitoes, Spits downing other Spits of different Marks. I'd like to know the story behind those.

Zyzbot
06-08-2004, 02:49 PM
26 July 1954 Two US Navy AD-4 Skyraiders from VF-54, piloted by William
Alexander and John Zarious,were launched from the USS Phillipine Sea (CVA 47) to
look for survivors from the Cathay Pacific DC-4 shot down four days previously.

They were attacked by two Chinese La-7s. A number of other VF-54 AD-4s and a
F4U-5N of VC-3 came to the aid of the USN aircraft. One La-7 was shot down by
AD-4 pilots Roy Tatham and Richard Cooks. The other LA-7 was shot down by AD-4
pilots John Damien, John Rochford, Paul Wahlstrom and Richard Ribble and the
F4U-5N pilot Edgar Salsig. A Chinese gunboat also fired upon the US aircraft,
but no damage was sustained.

CHDT
06-08-2004, 02:52 PM
I just read in "Le Fana de l'Aviation" that Stephen Grey thinks that Mustang and Corsair pilots would have had a very bad time in Korea if the North Korean La-9 pilots had been better trained!!!!

Obi_Kwiet
06-08-2004, 03:14 PM
Maby the La's would have had a worse time if we used our 47n's and m's.

Fillmore
06-08-2004, 03:18 PM
"I'm interested in how they compared to each other when they finally met in RL. Thanks."

When this happens IRL it is a comparison of pilot performance, not plane performance.

BS87
06-08-2004, 04:18 PM
Maybe they couldn't properly take car of the delta wood http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
06-08-2004, 04:24 PM
indeed, the lil counties didnt have a avation history and didnt have many good pilots (not there fault really)

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Mitlov47
06-08-2004, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"I'm interested in how they compared to each other when they finally met in RL. Thanks."

When this happens IRL it is a comparison of pilot performance, not plane performance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and North Korea was not exactly known for ace pilots. Just think about the human wave attacks they had instead of properly training and equipping their infantry. Similar thing for the air.

Or so I've read.

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Zyzbot
06-08-2004, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"I'm interested in how they compared to each other when they finally met in RL. Thanks."

When this happens IRL it is a comparison of pilot performance, not plane performance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes...That would help to explain this:

11 May 1954
Two Republic of China Air Force
P-47 Thunderbolts engaged two PLAAF MiG-15 and claimed one as damaged.


22 May 1954
In combat with 6 People's Republic of China PLAAF aircraft, Republic of China Air Force pilots Chien and Yen, flying P-47 Thunderbolts, shared in the downing of a MiG-15.

SkyChimp
06-08-2004, 08:59 PM
Here's the way it looked in Korea:

USAAF P-51s were credited with 11 kills
2 Yak-3
6 Yak-9
1 La-7
2 Il-10
(P-51 pilots also scored claimed several damaged MiG-15s)

10 P-51s were lost in air-to-air:
8 to MiG-15s
1 to Yak-3
1 to Yak-9
(Almost all were shot down while on strike missions)

===========

In the case of Corsairs, kills were:

5 Yak-9s
3 Yak-18s
1 MiG-15
1 Po-2

Not sure what those Yak-18s were used for.



Regards,
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Istreliteli
06-08-2004, 09:26 PM
its all pilot quality. put the same north korean who was shot down by a '51 in a mig 15 in a mig 21 and hed still be shot down, if he didnt get shot down hed crash eventually.
its only until very recently that the plane matters more than the pilot, even if only marginally.
And i believe that if the germans had russian planes and the russians german planes, wwii would look a lot different....i.ie the germans would have done better.
why did soviet pilots do bad initially? great planes no training. And then towards the end the great aces were weeded out through trial and error on an epic scale, and were able to use their planes well.
It shouldnt be so amazing to read about x downing y or y downing z or whatever, its the pilot pilot pilot!

Ya sizhu i smotru chuzhoya neba iz chuzhoya okna, i ne vidyem ne odnoi znakom iz zvezdiy,ya hodil po vsyem dorogo iz tuda i suda, a vernusya i ne smog, razgredyet sledi, no isli yest karmane pachka sigaret nachat vsye ne tak uzh plocha na syevodnachniy dyen-Victor Tsoi, Kino (Gruppa Krovi)

BuzzU
06-08-2004, 10:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Istreliteli:
its all pilot quality. put the same north korean who was shot down by a '51 in a mig 15 in a mig 21 and hed still be shot down, if he didnt get shot down hed crash eventually.
its only until very recently that the plane matters more than the pilot, even if only marginally.
And i believe that if the germans had russian planes and the russians german planes, wwii would look a lot different....i.ie the germans would have done better.
why did soviet pilots do bad initially? great planes no training. And then towards the end the great aces were weeded out through trial and error on an epic scale, and were able to use their planes well.
It shouldnt be so amazing to read about x downing y or y downing z or whatever, its the pilot pilot pilot!

Ya sizhu i smotru chuzhoya neba iz chuzhoya okna, i ne vidyem ne odnoi znakom iz zvezdiy,ya hodil po vsyem dorogo iz tuda i suda, a vernusya i ne smog, razgredyet sledi, no isli yest karmane pachka sigaret nachat vsye ne tak uzh plocha na syevodnachniy dyen-Victor Tsoi, Kino (Gruppa Krovi) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What great planes did the Russians have in the beginning? The I-16?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-22.jpg

Dammerung
06-09-2004, 03:14 AM
The I-16 was a revolutionary design... in 1936. The I-16 could hold its own against a 109E, but at the Time German pilot training was exceptional, and Soviet pilots were thrown into the air.

It was all up to the pilot in the end.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...