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jimDG
01-15-2006, 12:18 PM
I was sitting and marveling the other day this unrivalled ability Il2 gives us - to pit WW2 aircraft that never actualy met, against each other. For instance Lagg-3 against ki-61. Then it hit me - they did probably meet - in China and North-Korea in 1945.
(The I-16 and I-153 also fought in the 1939 border-war in Manchuria (Battle of Khalkhin Gol) , against the Ki-27.. but I guess we could substitute this with the Ki-43..)

So far, I have found this on the net regarding the '45 soviet campain in Asia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm, but in only states 5600 vs. 1800 a/c on both sides and doesnt say what types exactly)
and:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm
i.e. the japs had ki-84s and ki-43s
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_order_of_battle.htm
i.e. the soviet side had mainly Yak-9, La-5/La-7, P-63A and some I-16s, Lagg-3s and Yak-9Ts (+ possibly Hurricanes and p-40s)

so, at least the ki-84 and the la-5/la-7 met (a fair match, I'd say)

jimDG
01-15-2006, 12:18 PM
I was sitting and marveling the other day this unrivalled ability Il2 gives us - to pit WW2 aircraft that never actualy met, against each other. For instance Lagg-3 against ki-61. Then it hit me - they did probably meet - in China and North-Korea in 1945.
(The I-16 and I-153 also fought in the 1939 border-war in Manchuria (Battle of Khalkhin Gol) , against the Ki-27.. but I guess we could substitute this with the Ki-43..)

So far, I have found this on the net regarding the '45 soviet campain in Asia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm, but in only states 5600 vs. 1800 a/c on both sides and doesnt say what types exactly)
and:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm
i.e. the japs had ki-84s and ki-43s
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_order_of_battle.htm
i.e. the soviet side had mainly Yak-9, La-5/La-7, P-63A and some I-16s, Lagg-3s and Yak-9Ts (+ possibly Hurricanes and p-40s)

so, at least the ki-84 and the la-5/la-7 met (a fair match, I'd say)

VW-IceFire
01-15-2006, 01:35 PM
I think the most common type of fighter during this battle was the P-63 which had been supplied to the Soviets for use in this theater. Small numbers of La-7s and Yak-9s (probably U's) were also used.

I believe there was also a fair amount of I-16's still flying in the region and may have been used in combat. The Japanese had some J2M's, Ki-61's, Ki-43's, and other types.

Low_Flyer_MkII
01-15-2006, 01:37 PM
Might be a bit of a wade-through, but I'm sure there are Il-2's from this conflict available at Flying Legends with write-ups in their respective download sections.

Kocur_
01-15-2006, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
I was sitting and marveling the other day this unrivalled ability Il2 gives us - to pit WW2 aircraft that never actualy met, against each other. For instance Lagg-3 against ki-61. Then it hit me - they did probably meet - in China and North-Korea in 1945.
(The I-16 and I-153 also fought in the 1939 border-war in Manchuria (Battle of Khalkhin Gol) , against the Ki-27.. but I guess we could substitute this with the Ki-43..)

So far, I have found this on the net regarding the '45 soviet campain in Asia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm, but in only states 5600 vs. 1800 a/c on both sides and doesnt say what types exactly)
and:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm
i.e. the japs had ki-84s and ki-43s
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_order_of_battle.htm
i.e. the soviet side had mainly Yak-9, La-5/La-7, P-63A and some I-16s, Lagg-3s and Yak-9Ts (+ possibly Hurricanes and p-40s)

so, at least the ki-84 and the la-5/la-7 met (a fair match, I'd say) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And no Yak-3Ps by any chance...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SkyChimp
01-15-2006, 04:42 PM
Did someone say "air war over Manchuria?"

Mmmmm. F-86 Sabres, MiG-15bis'.....

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/MMS.jpg

jimDG
01-15-2006, 05:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:


And no Yak-3Ps by any chance...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

bah, only 6 sec of firing/ammo capacity - who needs that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jimDG
01-15-2006, 06:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Did someone say "air war over Manchuria?"

Mmmmm. F-86 Sabres, MiG-15bis'.....

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

F-82! La-9! Fury! mmmm...Wyvern.. argh ..&lt;drool&gt;!

http://www.cofe.ru/avia/W/W-22-1.jpg

(it's no fun if there are no props http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

DIRTY-MAC
01-15-2006, 06:12 PM
Look up what the Chinese used gainst Japan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEBillfish
01-15-2006, 08:42 PM
Actually though have just read about it in passing so VERY possibly incorrect......Also when I say China I mean also Manchuria, Mongolia, Korea, etc..

The Japanese ever since getting a foothold in China prepared to do battle with the Soviets. Though pressured by the allies, the Soviets however never attacked....at first.

Though I cannot speak for the Soviet side, I can say that Ki-27, 43, & 61 were staged along the border....In fact, any photograph you see of any Japanese planes with snow ski's were those being tested there for that feature.

However, as the U.S. finished up in the Philipines and the British and U.S. began drives back through Burma to southern China, and the chain of islands up the coast, Japanese troops were pulled back from China and the Soviet border (with very few remnants left behind) to prepare for the defense of the home Islands.....

I believe don't know that it was either 3 days before Hiroshima or after (in that the U.S. had notified Uncle Joe about their plans with the bomb and now that the war in Europe was over the land grab there done).......That the SOviets decided to march on Japan (naturally through now abandonded China partially to help stake old border claims).....finding little to no resistance.

Boom goes the Bombs.....war over.......Yet now nicely set up for Korea.

Essentially however.......No air combat between the Soviets and Japan.....Though captured Japanese planes later used in Korea briefly.

No expert on the subject, so don't take it as fact......

jimDG
01-16-2006, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Actually though have just read about it in passing so VERY possibly incorrect......Also when I say China I mean also Manchuria, Mongolia, Korea, etc..

The Japanese ever since getting a foothold in China prepared to do battle with the Soviets. Though pressured by the allies, the Soviets however never attacked....at first.

Though I cannot speak for the Soviet side, I can say that Ki-27, 43, & 61 were staged along the border....In fact, any photograph you see of any Japanese planes with snow ski's were those being tested there for that feature.

However, as the U.S. finished up in the Philipines and the British and U.S. began drives back through Burma to southern China, and the chain of islands up the coast, Japanese troops were pulled back from China and the Soviet border (with very few remnants left behind) to prepare for the defense of the home Islands.....

I believe don't know that it was either 3 days before Hiroshima or after (in that the U.S. had notified Uncle Joe about their plans with the bomb and now that the war in Europe was over the land grab there done).......That the SOviets decided to march on Japan (naturally through now abandonded China partially to help stake old border claims).....finding little to no resistance.

Boom goes the Bombs.....war over.......Yet now nicely set up for Korea.

Essentially however.......No air combat between the Soviets and Japan.....Though captured Japanese planes later used in Korea briefly.

No expert on the subject, so don't take it as fact...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found some date-to-date Soviet battle reports. There were definitely quite a few air-ro-air engagements (p-63s shooting down ki-43s etc.).
The Jap side of the story is, off course, missing.

djetz
01-16-2006, 06:17 AM
First use of the A6M Mitsubishi Zero in combat was over China in 1940. Japanese Navy pilots flying Zeros met with Chinese Nationalist pilots in a mixed group of I-15s and I-16s.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but something like a dozen Zeros shot down 30 or so I-15s and I-16s with no losses to the Japanese.

ytareh
01-16-2006, 01:57 PM
Just read today at the Soviet airforce used to trick early Japanese opponents by flying around with I153s with the wheels down so theyd think they were the slower/older version and then lift the wheels at the last minute....

jimDG
01-16-2006, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
Just read today at the Soviet airforce used to trick early Japanese opponents by flying around with I153s with the wheels down so theyd think they were the slower/older version and then lift the wheels at the last minute.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Woa?! No icons!? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kocur_
01-16-2006, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
Just read today at the Soviet airforce used to trick early Japanese opponents by flying around with I153s with the wheels down so theyd think they were the slower/older version and then lift the wheels at the last minute.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be the last trick in lives of those pilotshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif How long it took to retract gear turnig that crank?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif How did it influence combat awareness? Consider that a myth.

LStarosta
01-16-2006, 04:17 PM
The I153 in FB has automatic landing gear.

Kocur_
01-16-2006, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
The I153 in FB has automatic landing gear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And here only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Draughluin1
01-18-2006, 04:36 AM
Try http://www.samolet.co.uk/rregs.html
Its a list of VVS Regiments, that may give you a few ideas. Definitely a series 8 LaGG-3 which defected to the Japanese during 1942. From a quick glance in the appendix of my Osprey's on JAAF, there appears to a range of Sentais based in Manchuria. Mostly Nates, Oscars, Tojos and Franks later on. Maybe some Tonys as well, as I remember seeing a postwar picture of one in Nationalist Chinese markings. Goodluck.

joeap
01-18-2006, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Actually though have just read about it in passing so VERY possibly incorrect......Also when I say China I mean also Manchuria, Mongolia, Korea, etc..

The Japanese ever since getting a foothold in China prepared to do battle with the Soviets. Though pressured by the allies, the Soviets however never attacked....at first.

Though I cannot speak for the Soviet side, I can say that Ki-27, 43, & 61 were staged along the border....In fact, any photograph you see of any Japanese planes with snow ski's were those being tested there for that feature.

However, as the U.S. finished up in the Philipines and the British and U.S. began drives back through Burma to southern China, and the chain of islands up the coast, Japanese troops were pulled back from China and the Soviet border (with very few remnants left behind) to prepare for the defense of the home Islands.....

I believe don't know that it was either 3 days before Hiroshima or after (in that the U.S. had notified Uncle Joe about their plans with the bomb and now that the war in Europe was over the land grab there done).......That the SOviets decided to march on Japan (naturally through now abandonded China partially to help stake old border claims).....finding little to no resistance.

Boom goes the Bombs.....war over.......Yet now nicely set up for Korea.

Essentially however.......No air combat between the Soviets and Japan.....Though captured Japanese planes later used in Korea briefly.

No expert on the subject, so don't take it as fact...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I won't LOL. No seriously it was not just a cakewalk for the Soviets, there was a lot of resistance, but the Soviets had about 4 years of practice fighting the Wehrmacht so the issue was never in doubt. I do know this campaing is studied as a texbook example of an offensive. Some links. (Not about the air war as such)
Long discussion thread (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31096)

Memoirs of Soviet Participants (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36090)

LEXX_Luthor
01-18-2006, 12:46 PM
Another good one, very long.

Sino-Japanese Air War 1937-45 ~&gt; http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

Problem. The article writes of DB-3 used for long range attacks, inluding the attack that massacred Saburo's airfield. Now, if I recall correctly (haha) about this, Saburo/Caiden wrote Russian bombers were SBs, and Oleg's man SaQSoN posted here that no DB-3s were used in China.

Viking-S
01-18-2006, 03:54 PM
"I believe don't know that it was either 3 days before Hiroshima or after (in that the U.S. had notified Uncle Joe about their plans with the bomb and now that the war in Europe was over the land grab there done).......That the SOviets decided to march on Japan (naturally through now abandonded China partially to help stake old border claims).....finding little to no resistance."

Well I €believe€ that your cold war era kindergarten propaganda is peeing on a lot of good men€s graves!


"Two features of Soviet war-making stand out in the Manchurian campaign: (1) meticulous planning at all levels; (2) initiative and flexibility in the execution of assigned missions. For those who dismiss the campaign as a walkover of an already defeated enemy, LTC Glantz presents overwhelming evidence of tenacious, often suicidal, Japanese resistance. The sophistication of Soviet operations made an admittedly inferior Japanese Kwantung Army appear even more feeble than it actually was. Reminiscent of the lightning German victory in northwest Europe in May 1940, surprise, bold maneuver, deep penetrations, rapid rates of advance, and crossing terrain the defender thought impassable enabled the attacker to rupture vital command and control networks of the defenders and to hurl defending forces into disarray. In 1945 the Soviets demonstrated their mastery of combined arms warfare that four blood-soaked years of fighting against the Germans had perfected. As LTC Glantz observes, the Manchurian campaign was the postgraduate exercise for Soviet combined arms.
Too often soldiers fall victim to their preconceptions about potential adversaries' patterns of behavior. A popular notion among U.S. officers is that military history in the Soviet Union consists of little but propaganda broadsides to justify Soviet actions. On too few occasions do U.S. officers critically analyze the past campaigns of potential adversaries. In particular, the rich vein of military history in Russian language military periodicals and literature has been neglected. The language barrier, time constraints, and changing Army requirements combine to hinder the type of in-depth historical research that affords penetrating insights into Soviet military planning, operations, and tactics.
LTC David M. Glantz, a Russian linguist at the Combat Studies Institute, has, using a wide variety of Soviet sources, reconstructed a comprehensive two-part account of the 1945 Soviet Manchurian campaign. This Leavenworth Paper offers an operational overview of the campaign, while Leavenworth Paper no. 8 expands the general campaign analysis in eight case studies that highlight Soviet tactical doctrine and operations in Manchuria. In both papers, LTC Glantz has also used Japanese accounts of the campaign to check the veracity of the Soviet version. For these reasons, I believe that these two Leavenworth Papers will become the standard works in the English language on the campaign. JACK N. MERRITT
Lieutenant General, USA
Commanding"

https://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp

joeap
01-19-2006, 04:31 AM
Exactly what was discussed in the threads I posted above Viking. Glantz has done a lot, along with other authors like Bergstrom in making the Soviet experience in WWII known in the West. You all might like to check out the Soviet veterans interviews I posted.

bhunter2112
01-19-2006, 11:06 AM
In "single missions" that came with the game their is that mission with the ki84 "stopping the wind". Seems pretty accurate