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II_JG1Klaiber
09-23-2006, 01:10 PM
S! All,

I know this subject has been brought up before both here and in other forums, but I wanted to mention it again.

Would it be possible for 1C:Maddox Games to include flyable versions of some 2-seater training aircraft within Storm of War: Battle of Britain.

Not only would their inclusion add to the realism of off-line campaigns, but it could be a boon to online cyber-squadrons (like my own).

Not only would people be able to learn the ropes just like the real pilots did. But, you could then be able to train online with a more experienced pilot who (just like in real life) has the ability to sit in the cockpit right next to you. And having them be able to see what you see in real-time would be a fantastic addition.

I know that this type of functionality was not possible to IL-2 or Pacific Fighters due to the restrictions of the game's coding and FM concerns. But since SoW: BoB is being created with an entirely new system, such an addition might be possible if the game designers found value in it.

For 1940, the major trainers which could be included are the Fw.44 Stieglitz, the Bf.108 Taifun, the D.H.87 Hornet Moth and the Fairey Battle (T), etc. Others can probably name better examples.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Philipscdrw
09-23-2006, 03:20 PM
There's mention of rumours of stories of second-hand accounts of reports of the Tiger Moth and Bf-108 to be included in SoW...

heywooood
09-23-2006, 03:51 PM
but its not a crucial as the inclusion of the Sukoi aerobatic monoplane that will definately be in BoB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif....A Stearman would have been better.

Makabi-
09-23-2006, 05:11 PM
you can find a couple of renders of the Bf-108 model on Airwarfare.com if you can figure out where to look for them. (I'd link to the place directly, but I have a feeling that I might be breaking some sort of rule for doing so. it's not as obvious a place as one might think.)

ElAurens
09-23-2006, 05:21 PM
The Sukhoi is being included as a "proof of concept" for the global FM. It's flight envelope is well documented, and one of it's developers works for Maddox Games now.

Think of it as the ultimate "whine stopper".

MM-Zorin
09-23-2006, 07:02 PM
BoB plane modells (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/IL2BOB/updates_aircraft.htm)

It is listed as an Ai plane for inclusion aswell, but I'D like to get a cockpit for the 108 nontheless.

Arm_slinger
09-23-2006, 07:29 PM
A Tigermoth and Havard would sort the RAF out. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
09-23-2006, 09:19 PM
As really and I do mean really nice it would be to have trainers, the original concept for
BoB and SOW is less planes modelled to much greater detail. It's a matter of time, money
and what can fit in and work on PC's.

And besides, online there's lag so the idea of real time even with a ping of 50 is going to
be like a movie with bad lip synching at best. Also unlike real, you have no feel. Might
just as well watch training tracks, you can mouse the view down and up and even pause those.

IMO trainers would be cool as they are lower powered, gentler, and suitable to learn basics
on, of which many players are sadly lacking.

EDIT: ADD
A -Trainers- Addon down the SOW line would be cool though! Esp if it cam with beaucoup
training tracks teaching us right and showing fine points why do this or that.

Makabi-
09-23-2006, 11:23 PM
oh, well I guess I have nothing to fear if they're publicly shown.

I'd like to see some detailed training tracks for combat maneuvers personally, as I know the basics of flying and shooting, but I always get blown out of the sky when I try playing online. something to help me keep in the air for at least five minutes would be a welcome addition for me.

DIRTY-MAC
09-24-2006, 07:32 AM
this is a trainer I would like to see
http://www.flightglobal.com/ImageArchive/PhotoArchive/1939-1945/previews/fa_17516s.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/ImageArchive/PhotoArchive/1939-1945/previews/fa_17522s.jpg


http://www.flightglobal.com/ImageArchive/PhotoArchive/1939-1945/previews/fa_17521s.jpg

Lynx42
09-24-2006, 07:54 AM
but I'D like to get a cockpit for the 108 nontheless.

Me too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lynx42
09-24-2006, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
this is a trainer I would like to see

is that a two seater hurricane or trainer defiant?

either way I'd like to see it in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mrsiCkstar
09-24-2006, 08:37 AM
And besides, online there's lag so the idea of real time even with a ping of 50 is going to
be like a movie with bad lip synching at best. Also unlike real, you have no feel. Might
just as well watch training tracks, you can mouse the view down and up and even pause those.

I'm not sure why lag would be an issue... I mean there's already lag and that doesn't stop people from dogfighting and using comms etc. Why would it be different for online training?

If you can warn your wingman that someone is about to jump him and tell him where to break in time etc... I'm sure you could have a nice hop in a trainer practising some maneuvres and landings etc.

But I also agree that the less planes they model the more accurate the planes they model will be. And I think as few planes as possible should be modelled. But trainers would still be a good idea in my opinion. FSX will have a function where you can man a plane with a buddy online. I could see it in BoB.

DuxCorvan
09-24-2006, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Lynx42:
Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
this is a trainer I would like to see

is that a two seater hurricane or trainer defiant?

either way I'd like to see it in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Miles Master

dog-of-war
09-24-2006, 12:52 PM
had heard that the raf fitted light bombs racks to some of their tiger moths in case of invasion
if at a later stage the tiger moth is included
hope we get the bomb option

DIRTY-MAC
09-24-2006, 01:26 PM
well some Miles Masters were converted to single seaters and fitted with six machine guns
at the time of BOB, intended for use in dire emergency,
but I dont think
any of them saw combat


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2a/Miles_Master.jpg

http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/pictures/jpg/miles%20master.jpg


Miles Master
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Miles Master was a 2-seat monoplane advanced trainer built by Miles Aircraft Ltd for the Royal Air Force and Fleet Air Arm during World War II. It went through a number of variants according to engine availability and was even modified as an emergency fighter during the Battle of Britain. It was a fast, strong and fully aerobatic aircraft and served as an excellent introduction to the high performance fighter aircraft of the day; the Spitfire and Hurricane.

The M.9A Master I was based on the M.9 Kestrel trainer that was first demonstrated at the Hendon Airshow in July 1937 but never entered production. The M.9 Kestrel, powered by the 745 hp (555 kW) Rolls-Royce Kestrel XVI engine, could reach 295 mph (475 km/h), however the production Master I, which first flew on 31 March, 1939, used the lower powered 715 hp (535 kW) Rolls-Royce Kestrel XXX Vee-type engine, reducing the maximum speed, yet it remained one of the fastest and most maneuverable trainers of its day. Entering service just before the start of the war, 900 Mk.I and Mk.IA Masters were built. This included 26 built as the M.24 Master Fighter which were modified to a single-seat configuration and armed with six .303 in machine guns.

When production of the Kestrel engine ceased, a new variant of the Master was designed to use the 870 hp (650 kW) air-cooled radial Bristol Mercury XX engine. The first M.19 Master II prototype flew on 30 October, 1939 and 1,699 were eventually built. When the Lend-Lease programme began to supply engines from the United States, a third variant of the Master, the M.27 Master III was designed, powered by the 825 hp (615 kW) Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp Junior two-row radial engine. A total of 602 Master IIIs were built before production of the Master ceased in 1942 and production of the Miles Martinet took over. By the end of its production life, 3,227 Masters had been built, the most of any Miles aircraft.

The Master was equipped to carry eight practice bombs and one .303 in Vickers machine gun mounted in the front fuselage. In 1942, all variants had their wings clipped by one metre to reduce stress on the wings and increase maneuverability.

Specifications (Mk I)

General characteristics
Crew: 2, instructor & student
Length: 30 ft 5 in (9.27 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft 7 in (10.85 m) clipped
Height: 9 ft 3 in (2.82 m)
Wing area: 217 ft² (20.2 m²)
Weight
Empty: 4,160 lb (1,886 kg)
Loaded: 5,352 lb (2,428 kg)
Maximum takeoff: lb ( kg)
Powerplant: 1x Rolls-Royce Kestrel XXX Vee type, 715 hp (535 kW)

Performance
Maximum speed: 226 mph at 15,000 ft (364 km/h at 5,000 m)
Range: 500 miles (805 km)
Service ceiling: 28,000 ft (8,500 m)
Rate of climb: 1,500 ft/min (450 m/min)
Wing loading: 24.7 lb/ft² (120 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.14 hp/lb (0.23 kW/kg)
[edit]
Armament
provision for 1x .303 in Vickers machine gun
8x practice bombs on under-wing mounts
[edit]
Operators
Egypt
Ireland
Portugal
South Africa
Turkey
United Kingdom

mazexx
09-24-2006, 02:17 PM
I agree with Mac that the Master would be an interesting match for the already announced 108, even though I feel that the Magister is more BoB to me somehow (even though there where plenty of Masters around during BoB).

Never the less, no need for a Tiger Moth unless the Jungmann is added to the german side! Then we have the Magister/Master vs. me-108 and Moth vs. Jungmann matchups for a well balanced BoB trainer simulator http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

/Mazex

Aeronautico
09-24-2006, 02:35 PM
No trainers for Oleg, due to Internet lag/delayed response. Or something.

leitmotiv
09-24-2006, 02:52 PM
Captain Sim's F-104 two-seater for FS9 has an AI "instructor" which gives the pilot instructions and feedback---not a bad concept. The Germans and the English both used the early North American Harvard trainer---it would be "two birds with one stone" to have it in BOB with an AI instructor. At the least, this is an idea for a patch. Now I see why we are getting that contemporary Russian stunt plane---thanks ElAurens.

II_JG1Klaiber
09-25-2006, 09:41 AM
Thanks for the replies all.

I agree with MaxGunz- it's definitely a matter of time, money and what can actually work within the allotted R&D time that the actually have.

However, let me preface my agreement by saying that I still believe that the value of having a functional 2-seater in the game far outweighs any extra coding and work necessary to implement it. Let me explain:

This type of feature truly is the next plateau in both game realism and the overall sim experience. And only now, mid-decade, do we actually have computers that could run something like it.

Further, what better way to try and take a slice out of the Microsoft Flight Simulator market than to allow people to do something that is unprecedented? It appeals to the combat sim pilots, but it also appeals to the civilian sim pilots. Further, since BoB is a combat simulator, the ability to actually interact with your environment will undoubtedly appeal to everyone. In my mind, should Maddox games have the capital to pursue this type of feature, it will be a win-win situation for them.

As for lag, I€m not entirely convinced that this will truly kill the experience. The ability to have your friend see what you see and work in tandem with you is not a new concept. A lot of the first person shooters already implement similar features €" Battlefield 2 is an example. (Now, I know the creation of a FPS is far different and far less complicated than a flight simulator €" however, the fact that it€s in other games does show that the technology exists to make this work).

Also, IL-2 and Pacific Fighters have similar functionality within them already€" though many may not realize it off hand. All of the bombers can have multiple people man different stations within the same aircraft during COOP missions. And each person, while looking out different gun turrets, is technically seeing the same environment.

Now granted, something like this may need to be released as a future add-on. But what an add-on this would be.

ianboys
09-25-2006, 09:46 AM
I would dealy love a Tiger Moth too, having done aerobatics in a real one (as a front seat passenger). I also think it would ease the passage of new players into the Sim, with slower landing speeds etc.

leitmotiv
09-25-2006, 11:44 AM
The next step after a two-player trainer would be full, real crews for bombers. A computer person I met in London in '94 told me this was already being done---people on different computers were taking different positions in Lancasters and flying missions. This was, obviously, something you couldn't buy in a store, but it shows it's been done---12 years ago!

Mc.Duff
09-25-2006, 02:42 PM
I read somewhere that an Avro Anson used as a trainer was the fisrt allied aircraft casualty of the recognizerd B.O.B timespan ( I think it said it was trying to take off at the time ), can anybody verify this?.
If so it I would love to see it as it was the first model airplane and probably the most enjoyable I'd ever made. I was nine years old and it was an Airfix Avro Anson MK1 with the gun turret, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElAurens
09-25-2006, 03:55 PM
I still have my Airfix Avro Anson I model that I built a very long time ago.

I really hope it gets to be flyable at some point.

Feathered_IV
09-25-2006, 06:20 PM
Storch for me please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

JamesBlonde888
09-25-2006, 07:39 PM
If there are going to be trainer aircraft then what about a training campaign beginning with an Avro Tudor/ DH Tiger moth and graduating to a Harvard or Magister/Master?

Philipscdrw
09-26-2006, 09:38 PM
If there are going to be trainer aircraft then what about a training campaign beginning with an Avro Tudor/ DH Tiger moth and graduating to a Harvard or Magister/Master?

hmmm... I'd guess that we'd be lucky to get two trainers, one allied and one axis. Two trainers for one nation is a bit extravagant! (And the forum would be full of people whining "Why did you include this trainer instead of the ??!?!?")

It'd be great to have a training campaign progressing from Basic Trainer to Simple Combat Aircraft, gradually teaching people to fly [I]ab initio. If the Basic Trainer also did operational missions, like the Storch (was it a trainer too?), so much the better!

It'd be fun, online, trying to sneak UNDER the swirling dogfight overhead in a small unarmed aircraft, to pick up a virtual spy or high-ranking person from behind enemy lines...

heywooood
09-26-2006, 10:03 PM
yes - I always thought it would be nice to have to go through a training campaign successfully in order to activate combat campaigns and online modes.

It could be optional I guess - some people would complain about not being able to go right to guns, But I think it would reduce alot of noobness if a set of quality training missions were offered with some incentive for passing them.

JamesBlonde888
09-26-2006, 10:29 PM
hmmm... I'd guess that we'd be lucky to get two trainers, one allied and one axis. Two trainers for one nation is a bit extravagant! (And the forum would be full of people whining "Why did you include this trainer instead of the ??!?!?")

It'd be great to have a training campaign progressing from Basic Trainer to Simple Combat Aircraft, gradually teaching people to fly [I]ab initio. If the Basic Trainer also did operational missions, like the Storch (was it a trainer too?), so much the better!

It'd be fun, online, trying to sneak UNDER the swirling dogfight overhead in a small unarmed aircraft, to pick up a virtual spy or high-ranking person from behind enemy lines...

The idea just gets better and better doesn't it.

As for the whiners, I often say that you could give some people a toilet made of solid gold and they would whine that it is too cold to sit on.

Even without the trainer aircraft the training aspect has potential. Imagine encountering an advanced training school flight of rookies doing formation practise or something and delaying reinforcements for that side. Not something to be moddled into the game but a good idea for online wars and that.

Philipscdrw
09-27-2006, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
Even without the trainer aircraft the training aspect has potential. Imagine encountering an advanced training school flight of rookies doing formation practise or something and delaying reinforcements for that side. Not something to be moddled into the game but a good idea for online wars and that.

Already, I'm acting out the role of 'confused lost rookie' online! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

pdog1
09-27-2006, 08:41 AM
Screw traniers, i think Lizzies and Storches would be much more fun to fly@!

EDCF_Rama
09-27-2006, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by ianboys:
I would dealy love a Tiger Moth too, having done aerobatics in a real one (as a front seat passenger). I also think it would ease the passage of new players into the Sim, with slower landing speeds etc.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif I would love it too.

ElAurens
09-27-2006, 11:23 AM
I would rather see the effort go towards a proper French and Polish planeset, honestly.

EDCF_Rama
09-27-2006, 11:58 AM
I would also love to see a "proper French planeset".... but I know M:1C will never do it by themthelves... the max they would do is integrade a third party made planeset.

Nut for the trainer... if they're interested by solving the dual-input challenge... then maybe...

II_JG1Klaiber
09-27-2006, 01:27 PM
It had always been my impression that the Battle of France was going to be handled as a third party add-on:

http://www.battle-of-france-add-on.france-simulation.com/

That said, viable training aircraft within SOW:BOB is completely possible should Maddox Games choose to commit the resources. And I hope that they do. For the Germans, the Bf.108 appears to already be on the drawing table. All that would be needed is a cockpit and an FM. Then, a British counterpart. And then some coding to allow 2 players to see the same cockpit view.

Of course, the experience would be made all the better if they allowed two players to be able to control the same aircraft through a "master control and slave control" type system.

But even if they just gave us the ability to see the same thing as another player, that would be half the battle.

Regardless, because the game is still in production, now is the time to ask them to include these types of options. And this is the reason why I'm posting here.

My hope is that if enough people show that they're interested in this type of functionality, we can all help make the game better.

orkan_3d
09-27-2006, 04:01 PM
Time spent on implementing trainers in BOB wouldnt be waisted. But I can probably only dream to see Bucker Jungman in BOB. Jungmaister I can not even dream... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

No601_prangster
09-28-2006, 05:08 PM
Given the choice I'd rather have the Defiant flyable than an unarmed trainer.

http://www.bhaduris.net/biggles/images/defiant.jpg

ElAurens
09-28-2006, 08:29 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Philipscdrw
09-28-2006, 11:07 PM
Given the choice I'd rather have the Defiant flyable than an unarmed trainer.

Any 3rd party can add the Defiant, but support for multiplayer trainers probably must be done by 1C.

An awesome immersive authentic training campaign, with planes that were historically designed to teach people to fly in, would benefit the sim by making it much easier for newcomers to get to grips with the sim.

(The Defiant, on the other hand, requires a much more mature sim-pilot, because it's so blooming weird. And because it's blooming weird it's also a great aircraft to include, but if I were king it wouldn't be in the initial release at the expense of a trainer.)

EDCF_Rama
09-29-2006, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
but support for multiplayer trainers probably must be done by 1C.


Yep, and it's probably not easy to do.
The easy part is to adda a command "take command" that disable one pilot input and use the other pilot input instead.
The hard part is to have a smooth transition when switching from one user's axis inputs to the other's.
... but I'm pretty sure M:1C could to this right.

darkhorizon11
09-30-2006, 01:12 AM
Truthfully I hope all these trainers with mission to go with are included.

But I'm against the online instructor with student add in only because it will never be used. Like the MS flight sim trainer, this game is a combat sim, all the noobs will attract to the fastest most deadly aircraft immediately and get blasted out the of th sky. They learn the hard way from there, all the effort taken to go into online training could be put to better use!

EDCF_Rama
09-30-2006, 07:13 AM
But I'm against the online instructor with student add in only because it will never be used. all the effort taken to go into online training could be put to better use!

I totally disagree.
I'm running a French online Flight School on IL2/FB here: EDCF (http://www.edc-fr.net/)
This school is running since 18 month, and we had around 100 newbyes that learned online with our instructors the basics of flying, take off and landing, engine management and map navigation. (the other school cycles are still not finished)
We would have used a 2-seat trainers if it was available. Instead we used some tricks in order to compensate it.
You can say 100 isn't much... but it's only for French Speaking guys, and even not well known among the French community... and it has been running only since 18 month.
At least it demonstrate your saying "it will never be used" is wrong.

mrsiCkstar
09-30-2006, 01:16 PM
I agree with Rama. I can see a whole boat load of online squads using this to train their newcomers...

II_JG1Klaiber
10-01-2006, 10:52 AM
II./JG1 also has a very extensive training program that would greatly benifit from the addition of two-seater training aircraft.

Being a German cyber-squadron, we're currently forced to train on the Bf.109E-4, which is (just as in real life) a handful to new pilots - especially landing.

And the only reason why we use it is because 1.) Despite it's quirks, it's still the most docile of all of the German birds and 2.) There really isn't any other early war aircraft to use.

If the Fw.44 or the Bf.108 or the Bü 131 were included, this would be a HUGE help, as the flight characteristics of these aircraft are specifically designed to teach BFMs.

Philipscdrw
10-01-2006, 05:20 PM
(wasn't the Bf-108 a high-performance tourer?)

Nevermind, I didn't say that. I want flyable Taifun in BoB, therefore it's a BFM trainer!

II_JG1Klaiber
10-01-2006, 06:09 PM
They were actually used it for a really huge number of roles: fast communication duties, ferrying duties, target towing, rescue and supply ops, air ambulance and trainer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Philipscdrw
10-02-2006, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by II_JG1Klaiber:
They were actually used it for a really huge number of roles: fast communication duties, ferrying duties, target towing, rescue and supply ops, air ambulance and trainer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And doing any of those things online while avoiding bloodthirsty Brit fighters would be a load of fun!

Flying at an altitude of ~2ft is always fun...

II_JG1Klaiber
10-02-2006, 05:48 AM
Exactly my thinking as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Choctaw111
10-05-2006, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Makabi-:
you can find a couple of renders of the Bf-108 model on Airwarfare.com if you can figure out where to look for them. (I'd link to the place directly, but I have a feeling that I might be breaking some sort of rule for doing so. it's not as obvious a place as one might think.)

Do you mean here?
http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/IL2BOB/updates_aircraft.htm

Look at the second full row of pictures. There are three screenshots of the Bf108.

Makabi-
10-05-2006, 10:47 PM
yeah, I meant those pics, only I found them through a different method as I didn't know there was a page with those pictures on it.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
10-10-2006, 05:44 AM
Bumping a good idea http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

II_JG1Klaiber
10-18-2006, 07:51 AM
Bumping so it doesn't go off to the second page. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL25/914124/2142884/64008377.jpg (http://www.jg1.org)

Hals - und Beinbruch!

Arm_slinger
10-18-2006, 08:20 AM
Not quite a training, but if sneaking about in unarmed planes is ever going to happen, then the Lysander will be a corker to have.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


Causing Havoc online as 242Sqn_Kye
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/Kyebromley/IL-2sig.jpg
www.242sqn.com (http://www.242sqn.com)