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mw2000
03-05-2005, 04:27 PM
It looks as though the swastikas have disappeared from the german capital ships. I thought they were going to keep them in the English/US versions? They look silly with just a white circle. NOT HISTORICAL!!!!!!

Warren_537
03-05-2005, 04:34 PM
Yes when I was playing the Bismark single missions today I noticed that the swastika was m issing. I am hoping someone will make a little fix for this. It does look odd just having a white circle only.

chaserjock
03-05-2005, 04:51 PM
hehehe.... I noticed that also. And on the front cover of the recognition manual there's a German eagle badge with an empty ring....

archer49d
03-05-2005, 04:58 PM
That's just wrong, I hate it when people literally try to erase history because it is inconvenient.

Lobolopez220
03-05-2005, 05:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by archer49d:
That's just wrong, I hate it when people literally try to erase history because it is inconvenient. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In some countries its the law, you want to sell SHIII in Germany for example you can`t have any Nazi symbols by law. I think its more to do with trying to discourage the continued use of these symbols/concepts by certain modern day groups rather than a case of erasing history though.

BobV_07
03-05-2005, 05:04 PM
I,m not even going to bother! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif


http://adjunct.diodon349.com/photopoint/0037/0046.jpg

KiwiVenge
03-05-2005, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobV_07:
I,m not even going to bother! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif


http://adjunct.diodon349.com/photopoint/0037/0046.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh, but you did bother hehehehe
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

mw2000
03-05-2005, 05:12 PM
Thats right Germany is not allowed to have the Nazi symbols but the English/US versions of this game were going to have them in. See the Bismarck in the SH3 First Trailer video? They were rightfully there.

I own Medal Of Honor, Call Of Duty and Castle Wolfenstein here in the UK with the swastikas present. What makes this game any different?

Lobolopez220
03-05-2005, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mw2000:
Thats right Germany is not allowed to have the Nazi symbols but the English/US versions of this game were going to have them in. See the Bismarck in the SH3 First Trailer video? They were rightfully there.

I own Medal Of Honor, Call Of Duty and Castle Wolfenstein here in the UK with the swastikas present. What makes this game any different? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All three of those are FPS`s which sell a lot more and have higher budgets and can therefore do localised versions for different countries would probably be a pretty good guess as to why.

ScouseAir
03-05-2005, 05:26 PM
Maybe there is a way to turn them on in a config file, a la the ships crew in Pacific Fighters. In Neal's preview of the dynamic campaign on Subsim, the swastika is visible in the pic of the sinking friendly he took out. I realize that was beta, but you never know.

gravee01
03-05-2005, 05:27 PM
I am sure someone will come up with a mod for this. Just like someone did with the IL-2 Sturmovik flight sim series.

Personally, I will not miss it.

G

wolfh2o
03-05-2005, 05:39 PM
If the game is as moddable as they say it is it will take all of a few hours or less to change the flags. I personally don't care one way or the other as far as my enjoyment of the game. For the sake of historical accuracy I woulden't mind them being in there though.

JG27_Arklight
03-05-2005, 05:41 PM
If it is moddable, I will add them if they are missing.

HerrKaleunU123
03-05-2005, 05:42 PM
Just FYI...

Bavaria Studios and Wolfgang Petersen had to get a special exemption from the German government to display the swatika in Das Boot.

archer49d
03-05-2005, 05:54 PM
Discouraging something and keeping people from talking about it leads to two things...

1) Misinformation
2) People thinking that this "forbidden" information may have vailidity of be a proper way of thought, which Nazism odviously isn't, thats still no reason to outlaw symbols.

mannionmax
03-05-2005, 06:04 PM
I think it has got something to do with the EU constitution. I read that Nazi symbols are to be band from games! Maybe because the EU constitution vote is so close for the member states the dev team may have chosen to leave it out.

Personally I think this is stupid, and I think this issue is going down on my list on reasons not to vote for the EU constitution. Those left wing brussels scum have gone too far, the swastika was used thousands of years b4 the nazis. It's HISTORY for gods sake!!!!

Osakajoe
03-05-2005, 06:13 PM
Interesting.

Have a look at this Screenshot from Neal Stevens (Subsim.com) look at the Dynamic Campaign posted yesterday.

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_rc1/sh3_mar05_dc1.htm

Look at the Dark One called "I don't know anything about this!"

Tomcat41
03-05-2005, 06:18 PM
hopefully it will be like IL-2, that it can easily be re-enabled since it's still buried somewhere in the game itself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

banzai_alex
03-05-2005, 07:46 PM
Right now in school we are raving about the Holocaust, how the Nazi's are so bad, and for me being proud of my German heritage i am called one often. But it is a true crime to disrespect those that died of the Nazi scourge by eliminating all traces of it from the world. If we succed in commiting this crime, itll happen again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Schepke_U-100
03-05-2005, 08:07 PM
I know it is due to the different laws in Germany that they dont have the Hakenkreuz/swastika in the game...

I lived in Germany for a year and bought Il-2 in Essen, and it didnt show swastika's.

But with regards to the Bismark, (flag on the mast aside) the large swastika's on the deck were actually covered with Tarp's during the period leading up to its sinking.

Baletzan
03-06-2005, 01:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The swastika was used thousands of years b4 the nazis. It's HISTORY for gods sake!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is just the thing why I hate all this fuzz about the swastika. A symbol that has existed for thousands of years is being banned all over the world 'cause a nation used it for about a decade http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I lived in Germany for a year and bought Il-2 in Essen, and it didnt show swastika's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IL-2 or FB/AEP doesn't show swastikas, you have to enable MAT Manager or IL2 Manager to get swastikas to work.

Achtung_Englder
03-06-2005, 04:34 PM
IL2 does have a mod for the Nazi symbol - just type IL2 + stab in google

naturalhigh1985
03-06-2005, 05:08 PM
The only reason you guys complain about it is because you want it in the game... god****, as long as teh games good.
I understand totally why its banned, and I also agree with it. I too would love to have it in games for the authenticity... but ok, it has been ruined, and unfortunately theres a rising number of people again who would missuse it if it was made accesible (the symbol). So, a complete ban seems a pretty good solution to me...

JG27_Arklight
03-06-2005, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
The only reason you guys complain about it is because you want it in the game... god****, as long as teh games good.
I understand totally why its banned, and I also agree with it. I too would love to have it in games for the authenticity... but ok, it has been ruined, and unfortunately theres a rising number of people again who would missuse it if it was made accesible (the symbol). So, a complete ban seems a pretty good solution to me... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That was really dumb.

KiwiVenge
03-06-2005, 06:52 PM
Ya, humans and their symbols are weird.
Get over it, it is ink. Some people will still support the ideals of what the swastiks stood for in the 40s. Nothing we can do about that, and making the symbol itself responsible is kinda funny I think.
But that is just me, and if this symbol truly upsets people then I am fine with not having it around, for their sake.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-06-2005, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
unfortunately theres a rising number of people again who would missuse it if it was made accesible (the symbol). So, a complete ban seems a pretty good solution to me... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, hang on... let me get this straight. You're saying that there's a growing number of neo-nazis, and rather than let them carry around a sign that makes them almost universally hated, you'd prefer to take that away from them, which will do two things: 1 - it will make them appear less loathesome to their potential recruits, and 2 - it will make them harder for police to spot. I'm sorry, but to me, that seems like a recipe for disaster.

JG27_Arklight
03-06-2005, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
unfortunately theres a rising number of people again who would missuse it if it was made accesible (the symbol). So, a complete ban seems a pretty good solution to me... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, hang on... let me get this straight. You're saying that there's a growing number of neo-nazis, and rather than let them carry around a sign that makes them almost universally hated, you'd prefer to take that away from them, which will do two things: 1 - it will make them appear less loathesome to their potential recruits, and 2 - it will make them harder for police to spot. I'm sorry, but to me, that seems like a recipe for disaster. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beeryus, the "Show Common Sense" option was turned off.

You must be kicked for cheating.

lol

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hertston
03-06-2005, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I think it has got something to do with the EU constitution. I read that Nazi symbols are to be band from games! Maybe because the EU constitution vote is so close for the member states the dev team may have chosen to leave it out.

Personally I think this is stupid, and I think this issue is going down on my list on reasons not to vote for the EU constitution. Those left wing brussels scum have gone too far, the swastika was used thousands of years b4 the nazis. It's HISTORY for gods sake!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Jeez... some people shouldn't be allowed a vote http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Learn the facts. It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU constitution.

There has been a ban in Germany for years, and as a result swastikas have been left out of many games released in Europe, from IL-2 to Combat Mission 2, to Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Not to mention Silent Hunter 2!! There has been recent talk of a ban across Europe - that was sparked by that idiot Prince going to a party dressed as a Nazi - not the EU constitution.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-06-2005, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
Beeryus, the "Show Common Sense" option was turned off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry. Hehe, let me amend my previous post by saying this next statement, from which I've removed all common sense:

Woooo! Take away those nazi symbols! Those neo-nazis have a undeserved bad reputation. They are an important community - they need all the help we can give them, so for the sake of the Aryan race and global jackboot manufacturers, ban swastikas now!

WOOOO!!!



WOOOOOOO!!!!! (FYI: Wooo! as in high pitched Yank frat boy howl, not low ghostly moan).

JG27_Arklight
03-06-2005, 07:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
Beeryus, the "Show Common Sense" option was turned off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry. Hehe, let me amend my previous post by saying this next statement, from which I've removed all common sense:

Woooo! Take away those nazi symbols! Those neo-nazis have a undeserved bad reputation. They are an important community - they need all the help we can give them, so for the sake of the Aryan race, ban swastikas now!

WOOOO!!!



WOOOOOOO! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's more like it.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hakentt
03-06-2005, 10:49 PM
Thats so lame not to have a swastika there. They should include the patch for it or something.

Yohoho_75
03-07-2005, 02:52 PM
I agree, it's idiotic not to include swastikas. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Yes their are neonazis ***** among all other sorts (pardon my French lol) that are instantly turned on by it, but
a) it's erasing a historical fact (and we Europeans don't like to reminisce about that painful past)
and
b) it only makes the original swastika used for milleniums in Indo-Europeans, Asians and native Americans among many others look even worst, and the people that simply fancy the symbol and it's interpretation are bound to be thought as extremists...

KiwiVenge
03-07-2005, 02:58 PM
rofl
The 'c' word is not filtered, but beaver houses and horse dung is????

Messervy
03-07-2005, 03:04 PM
Neither is *****, but D.i.c.k. is no-no word!

KiwiVenge
03-07-2005, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
Neither is *****, but D.i.c.k. is no-no word! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That at least makes some sense. I mean, you can ***** a balloon and watch it pop. The other one you mentioned is mostly used as profanity (not that it bothers this 41 year old construction worker ...lol)

Messervy
03-07-2005, 03:15 PM
A long time ago I wanted to quote a famous Berthold Brecht:
"Do not rejoyce in his defeat you men.
The bltch that bore him is in heat again."!
Well that at least makes sence.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-07-2005, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiVenge:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
Neither is *****, but D.i.c.k. is no-no word! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That at least makes some sense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except when you want to talk about Spotted D!ck, D!ck Nixon, D!ck Gephardt, D!ck Clark, D!ck Tracy, or many other Richards who refer to themselves by the 'D' word.

erikkai66
03-07-2005, 03:22 PM
The "unbastardized" swastika symbol still appears in Buddhist temples throughout the Orient.

I hope they include it in the American version. I say death to the Nazis but yeah for historical accuracy.

KiwiVenge
03-07-2005, 03:24 PM
So very true!
I never thought of that, and my apologies to all (including my uncle) who go (or went) by the name of D!ck
****, kinda of embarressed I missed that.

naturalhigh1985
03-07-2005, 03:26 PM
You know what, it seems Beeryus, your the one without common sense. you have no idea what would happen if the Nazi symbol was legalised in Germany, you really obviously dont.
Do you know anything about facist rallies? Which happen alot around the country? where all the remaining nazis rally together, and march? You know the ones which are usually banded, but are hard to band because theyre not officially 'nazis'? You do realise theyd all be running round with big red flags iwth swastikas on them if it was legal? Which in turn, would make an impact, and second, would raise attention? The best thing is to ignore them, because its attention they want. Like little children, they just want to stir **** and get attention, thats how they work.
Anyway.
Again, what hte hell is the point of kicking up a stink?
Unless you live in Germany, shut up.

KiwiVenge
03-07-2005, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unless you live in Germany, shut up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why?
People who do not live in Germany are not allowed to have and voice opinions about the swastika?

naturalhigh1985
03-07-2005, 03:33 PM
You dont seem to understand how important a symbol, a flag, is for a party.
You think if we take away the American flag they'll just stand in front of a blank space, where it used to hang, and sing the ol anthem anyway? Maybe yes, but it definately wont carry as much weight. In fact, what a **** good idea, lets do this and see what happens, and then we'll talk about if its a good idea to take away the Swastika from the Nazis still around, or not.

naturalhigh1985
03-07-2005, 03:35 PM
People who do not live in Germany are allowed to say and do as they please, but they really should be careful critisizing laws and regulations here in Germany about the swastika. Doesnt affect them and they cant comprehend the reality of the situation without being here.

So, if we*re going to slam the removal of the swastika, I could start slamming too...

KiwiVenge
03-07-2005, 03:39 PM
First off, how do you know what I understand.
Secondly, assuming I don't understand, wouldn't discussing it be the way to spread understanding?
But truly, I am not trying to fire you up.
As I said before, if it (the swastika) upsets people then I won't miss it if it is not there.
I guess I just do not like being told to shut up about it. It has been part of a lot of peoples lives. Like most I lost relatives because of the Nazi war machine.

naturalhigh1985
03-07-2005, 03:46 PM
Sure, and I didnt really mean you in anyway Kiwivenge, sorry I am just getting a bit pissed off...
Just this <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Okay, hang on... let me get this straight. You're saying that there's a growing number of neo-nazis, and rather than let them carry around a sign that makes them almost universally hated, you'd prefer to take that away from them, which will do two things: 1 - it will make them appear less loathesome to their potential recruits, and 2 - it will make them harder for police to spot. I'm sorry, but to me, that seems like a recipe for disaster. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
really ticked me off... I mean what the hell.
Like I wrote, the symbol is half the evil. Okay the other half is what hte people in the party believe, but what are they really withou the symbol? just a disorganized rabbel.
And like I said, theres neo nazi protests already, I wouldnt want them to have flags in anycase!!!

And that, I feel is rather a topic for discussion with fellow Germans who are aware of the rallies, who are aware of the Neonazis and who have grown up with the guilt of 6 million people burnt into their brains!!! I dont think, any of you who are not German, have any **** clue what that feels like!
I am not saying its okay, but I dont want to see a swastika unless its in a historic movie, Okay i think its fine in a game like this! But if its not in there thats okay with me too. Its bad enough most germans are still labeled nazis by so many people in the world (good posts on this in the Brothers in Arms forums), can you imagine what image the country would have if their were still groups with swastikas out their?

KiwiVenge
03-07-2005, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
can you imagine what image the country (Germany) would have if their were still groups with swastikas out their? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. Never thought of that.

naturalhigh1985
03-07-2005, 03:59 PM
Thank you, in fact tahts kinda what I was trying to say in all that rambling from the very beginning... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ParaB
03-07-2005, 04:16 PM
I (as a German) actually don't care if the swastika is in the game or not. Perhaps UBISoft will do two versions, perhaps not. But since german law forbids the display of the swastika if not in a historical or educational context we won't see it in a german version. Unfortunately computer games are NOT considered a "historical" or "educational" context and neither are they considered "art" as are movies, but are considered "toys". And in Germany it is deemed unsuitable to have swastikas on toys.

The intent of this law is NOT to hide a dark part of our history but to prevent the belittlement of a symbol that stands for unprecedented terror and the suffering of millions of people.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 04:41 PM
I dont know if it will be possible to "mod" graphics in this game as in medal of honor..call of duty and others..but if it is..you can bet there will be "mods" to add the swastika (for those of us whose countries allow it) and to enhance other graphic items

hakentt
03-07-2005, 05:04 PM
I can't believe you guys. All of you are pathetic. You are HERE in this "silent hunter 3" forum because you LOVE U-boats from WW2 a NAZI U-boats that sunk so many ships and killed unarmed merchant sailors. I have a big simphathy for Kriegsmarine back from 40s. They are my heroes.

Americans are killing people in Iraq as we speak but I see no american flag being banned in EU. Ok lets take a look at it this way. Add the people killed by USA force from year '41 to'05. Am positive the number will exeed the Nazi Civilian Kill number.

Its all politics. I think missing swastika from historic game like this is gay.

Seewolf1939
03-07-2005, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seewolf1939:
Naturalhigh1985 said: "You do realise theyd all be running round with big red flags iwth swastikas on them if it was legal? Which in turn, would make an impact, and second, would raise attention? The best thing is to ignore them, because its attention they want."

------------------------------

That means we will know where to shoot when the time comes. However we should never ignore them.
Over here they are small and amatuerish so we oppose them at everyturn. We did this last year and outnumbered them.
It's the fascist wolves in sheeps clothes here we have to worry about; right wing politicians and ubercops.

Kapitan von Kahil <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

erikkai66
03-07-2005, 05:44 PM
I'd be interested in this game if it was the IRAQI navy and not the German. I think the gameplay rocks.

We all appreciate the evil the German Navy participated in during the war. Like Donitz said, it was very impersonal.

Look at it this way. Some people get offended from seeing rockers wear an upside down cross or a pentagram. Others are offended from the Nazi swastika.

We should respect people's beliefs.

Personally, I hope the symbols are in the game, as it adds realism.

Delfin1941
03-07-2005, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HerrKaleunU123:
Just FYI...

Bavaria Studios and Wolfgang Petersen had to get a special exemption from the German government to display the swatika in _Das Boot_. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Herr Kaleun, I tought it is permitted if it has to do with History or when making a film.
I think it should be permitted too in games that deal with historical matters.

I hope the game has an option to turn it on, definately, or a mod should put it back where it belongs.. like others mentioned.. I don't like empty circles. I want to get the feeling that I am back in history and fighting for the Reich!

PS: herr Keleu, I like that website alot "Grey Wolves of the Atlantic "... have you made it?
Do you have pictures of the commanders of U-166 and U-589? (Kuhlmann & Horrer)? {both KIA http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif}

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
can you imagine what image the country would have if their were still groups with swastikas out their? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the neo-nazi groups are still there, whether they show a swastika or not. All removing the swastika does is camouflage them. Pretending they don't exist won't make them go away. On the contrary, it will encourage them.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 02:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParaB:
The intent of this law is NOT to hide a dark part of our history but to prevent the belittlement of a symbol that stands for unprecedented terror and the suffering of millions of people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But intent and practice are two different things. In practice, what the law actually does is hide that dark part of history, and by making the swastika illegal, you mystify it and make it more desireable. If someone says you can't have something, doesn't it make you want it more?

KiwiVenge
03-08-2005, 02:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
can you imagine what image the country would have if their were still groups with swastikas out their? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the neo-nazi groups are still there, whether they show a swastika or not. All removing the swastika does is camouflage them. Pretending they don't exist won't make them go away. On the contrary, it will encourage them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, but what is the advantage of letting them use the swastika? I don't get how letting them use the Nazi symbol as a way of curtailing what they are doing.

Nukem_Hicks
03-08-2005, 02:21 AM
Oppression never works, even if doing so is a noble cause (as is the case here). Unless you plan on massacring the remaining neo-Nazis, attempting to silence them will only make them speak louder.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 02:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
People who do not live in Germany are allowed to say and do as they please, but they really should be careful critisizing laws and regulations here in Germany about the swastika. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rubbish. If you have counterproductive laws, I'm supposed to sit silently? That's nonsense. If you have what I consider to be a bad law, it's my RESPONSIBILITY to tell you why it's bad.

Until recently a few states in the US had the death penalty for minors. The world community lobbied the US to change that law, and it was changed. If everyone outside the US had to just accept the US law, and if they weren't allowed to comment on it, those states would be executing 15 year-olds to this day.

You assume that national laws don't have international repercussions. Didn't you learn anything from your country's flirtation with fascism?

JG27_Arklight
03-08-2005, 02:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hakentt:
I can't believe you guys. All of you are pathetic. You are HERE in this "silent hunter 3" forum because you LOVE U-boats from WW2 a NAZI U-boats that sunk so many ships and killed unarmed merchant sailors. I have a big simphathy for Kriegsmarine back from 40s. They are my heroes.

Americans are killing people in Iraq as we speak but I see no american flag being banned in EU. Ok lets take a look at it this way. Add the people killed by USA force from year '41 to'05. Am positive the number will exeed the Nazi Civilian Kill number.

Its all politics. I think missing swastika from historic game like this is gay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



If you can't see the differences between the war in Iraq and the German offensive during WWII then there is no hope for you.

KiwiVenge
03-08-2005, 02:29 AM
To be fair, he did say 'They should be careful critisizing laws and regulations'
Not that you should not ...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Osakajoe
03-08-2005, 02:44 AM
By Banning a Symbol or even political Rally or meeting wether it be for the far left or the far right the German Law is in itself upholding Nazi Principals.

The German Goverment is forbidding freedom of speech and expression. No?
Does'nt matter how evil or depraved the Nazi's were.
If someone wants to support their policies and Views then fine.We must also allow anyone who completely opposes those policies and views to express their opinion.This is called freedom of Speech and should be allowed in a Democracy.
By Banning these things then you are the Nazi's.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
You know what, it seems Beeryus, your the one without common sense. you have no idea what would happen if the Nazi symbol was legalised in Germany, you really obviously dont. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know exactly what would happen. The same thing as happens at nazi rallies in the US.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you know anything about facist rallies? Which happen alot around the country? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know more than you could possibly imagine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...You do realise theyd all be running round with big red flags iwth swastikas on them if it was legal? Which in turn, would make an impact, and second, would raise attention? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly right. Don't you think it's better that these morons get attention? Hiding them is much more dangerous.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Again, what hte hell is the point of kicking up a stink? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because silence implies consent.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unless you live in Germany, shut up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A viewpoint that the nazis would have applauded. "Don't comment about our marching into the Rhineland", "don't worry that we're annexing Austria", "the Sudetenland is Germany's back yard". Yes, as it's been shown before, staying silent works wonders.

You keep telling yourself that taking away the swastika will stifle neo-naziism. Keep telling yourself that, but as the neo-nazi movement gains power, don't say I didn't warn you. This is a movement that THRIVES on adversity. Taking away their symbols is the best gift your country could have given them. That's how they grew during the 1920s. Have you learned NOTHING AT ALL from your country's history?

By the way, just FYI, I lived in Austria during the 1980s, and I was a neo-nazi during the 1970s. So I think I know (just a little bit) what I'm talking about. Have you ever been a neo-nazi? If not, you shut up, because you haven't a clue how they think. I, on the other hand, remember only too well.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 02:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiVenge:
Ok, but what is the advantage of letting them use the swastika? I don't get how letting them use the Nazi symbol as a way of curtailing what they are doing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It focuses the community on their actions. Without the swastika they can act with some level of invisibility. Their rallies may, on cursory examination, look like any other political party rally. But bung a swastika up there and it focuses attention. That's why it should be allowed, because taking it away not only removes their ability to focus on it, it also removes ours. If we lose focus, that's a victory for them, because let me assure you, with or without a flag, they won't lose their focus.

Markku38
03-08-2005, 02:49 AM
Hmmm....
Here in Finland we have swastikas our planes in WW2.
When war is over, it must change...

Originally this swastika which we have our planes was von Rosens luckysymbol ( white roundel with blue swastika ) - year was 1918.

When comes swastika with nazis...

Please buried flamethrowers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I have IL2FB+AEP+PF and use IL2Stab to turn swastikas in Finnish and Germans planes...

MBeck
03-08-2005, 02:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If the game is as moddable as they say it is it will take all of a few hours or less to change the flags. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well....they havent stated anything about the possibility to mod the models in the game. Hopefully this will be possible, but at this point it doesnt seems like its an option. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

KiwiVenge
03-08-2005, 03:02 AM
I must admit Beeryus, I just don't get it.
I am not saying you are wrong, you have had a lot more to do with it than I have.
Just seems weird to my logic to let them proceed as those before them.

naturalhigh1985
03-08-2005, 03:02 AM
This has gone so far off topic.
No swastikas in Game. DEAL WITH IT!

Osakajoe
03-08-2005, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
This has gone so far off topic.
No swastikas in Game. DEAL WITH IT! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah we will.
Thank God for Mods!!

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiVenge:
I must admit Beeryus, I just don't get it.
I am not saying you are wrong, you have had a lot more to do with it than I have.
Just seems weird to my logic to let them proceed as those before them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the main point is that it's just a flag. People attach way too much importance to such symbols, and if we concentrate on such trappings we may be blinded to the real issues. The real issues are the ACTIONS of these folks. What colour flag they fly is about as important as what colour tie, or what style of shoes they wear. Focusing on irrelevancies is counter-productive. It's the same issue as the nonsensical flag-burning debate we have here in the US: burning a flag is useless - it doesn't actually achieve anything real; similarly, getting upset about flag-burning is useless - it doesn't mean anything. No one dies because of it, no one is dishonoured because of it, no one starves because of it. In all respects it is an irrelevancy, and serves only to distract from real problems in society. While people are making silly laws about flag-burning and nazi symbols, real people are being victimized, not by nazi flags, not by a swastika, not by activists burning flags, but by people who believe in weird philosophies behind such symbols. The actions, the philosophies, the ignorance - that's what's important. I hear of lots of talk about laws against flag-burning and nazi symbols, but what I don't hear enough about is educating away the ignorance that causes people to believe in wacky philosophies, and I don't hear enough about laws to stop people from engaging in the hatred that lies behind the symbols. You don't destroy hatred and ignorance by taking away its symbolism. Symbols are ten a penny: remove one and ten will rise up in its place.

Heck, I know. I was taken in by a wacky philosophy in my youth, and I'm by no means a dummy. In the 25 years since I made my mistake nothing has been done to prevent young people from being attracted to wacky cults. Children are not being given the tools they need to distinguish between good and bad philosophies. Very few schools teach critical thinking - most schools still teach by rote. Logic and the application of reason is ignored because it's faster to get kids to memorize unconnected facts than it is to teach them how to actually think for themselves. That's why we have people who appear to be intelligent posting on forums like this, saying how they 'know for a fact' that space aliens are visiting and abducting people. They don't have any tools for measuring the accuracy of their beliefs - many don't know the importance of such tools, and some don't even know that such tools exist.

I was lucky, because I developed a strong sense that my beliefs should be defensible, and that led me to question my early beliefs and move away from the less defensible philosophies. Most people don't seem to need that level of introspection, so they're happy enough to believe without any rational foundation. It's not a question of intelligence - many geniuses have been nazis, many geniuses believe in alien abduction. The problem is that without the right tools, a brain (however intelligent) is useless. Giving a person beliefs without first showing him how to reason is like showing a person how to drive a car without telling him the rules of the road, and then acting all surprised when he drives the wrong way on the freeway. Similarly, outlawing the nazi flag is like telling the aforementioned driver that he has to put a sticker on his car saying "Drive safely". It might make everyone feel better, but it's not going to have any effect at all on his actual ability to drive safely.

bertgang
03-08-2005, 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Osakajoe:
By Banning a Symbol or even political Rally or meeting wether it be for the far left or the far right the German Law is in itself upholding Nazi Principals.

The German Goverment is forbidding freedom of speech and expression. No?
Does'nt matter how evil or depraved the Nazi's were.
If someone wants to support their policies and Views then fine.We must also allow anyone who completely opposes those policies and views to express their opinion.This is called freedom of Speech and should be allowed in a Democracy.
By Banning these things then you are the Nazi's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be careful with this kind of arguments.
Freedom of speech is usually a good thing, but always has some obvious limitation.
Should Osama Bin Laden be free to say everything he likes? Just a trivial example.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
Be careful with this kind of arguments.
Freedom of speech is usually a good thing, but always has some obvious limitation.
Should Osama Bin Laden be free to say everything he likes? Just a trivial example. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? What Osama bin Laden says is up to him (it's not like anyone can stop him anyway). The weight we place on speech, and what we do in response to it is up to us. If I yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, people still have a responsibility not to panic. Sure, I shouldn't do it, but if people file out in an orderly manner, as they're taught to do in case of fire, nothing bad will happen. It takes more than an abuse of free speech to cause a panic, and it takes more than one person preaching hate to cause a terrorist attack. People have no right to be ignorant, and they have no right to act based on flawed information. On the contrary, they have a responsibility to be informed. If everyone took that responsibility seriously, Osama bin Laden would just be another street-corner wack-job.

Messervy
03-08-2005, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Osakajoe:
By Banning a Symbol or even political Rally or meeting wether it be for the far left or the far right the German Law is in itself upholding Nazi Principals.

The German Goverment is forbidding freedom of speech and expression. No?
Does'nt matter how evil or depraved the Nazi's were.
If someone wants to support their policies and Views then fine.We must also allow anyone who completely opposes those policies and views to express their opinion.This is called freedom of Speech and should be allowed in a Democracy.
By Banning these things then you are the Nazi's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be careful with this kind of arguments.
Freedom of speech is usually a good thing, but always has some obvious limitation.
Should Osama Bin Laden be free to say everything he likes? Just a trivial example. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But he IS free to say everything he likes!

Messervy
03-08-2005, 06:20 AM
I posted this on the other "hot" thread yesterday but it fits in here nicely:

The problem with German neo-nazis has its origins in unification of Germany.
After decades of Soviet oppression East Germans finaly got to see the West they were longing for for years, only to discover the cruel competitive nature of capitalism.
A nation that has been pounded into a dust, enslaved for half of the century and indoctrinated in virtualy the same manner twice in a single persons lifespan, is bound to show signs of associal behaviour.
After unification the working class never enjoyed a head start of their western counterparts and the gap between rich and poor began to strain the younger generation.
It is only natural that they turned their minds into gloryous past of pre war nazi Germany.
I am not defending their actions, I am merely expresing my opinion.
Question is how to deal with this "fenomena" if you like. You can put the lid on and keep it brewing for some time and hoping that they will sooner or later catch up with the natural course of developement and education, but the safest way is to ensure their prosperity.

bertgang
03-08-2005, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Osakajoe:
By Banning a Symbol or even political Rally or meeting wether it be for the far left or the far right the German Law is in itself upholding Nazi Principals.

The German Goverment is forbidding freedom of speech and expression. No?
Does'nt matter how evil or depraved the Nazi's were.
If someone wants to support their policies and Views then fine.We must also allow anyone who completely opposes those policies and views to express their opinion.This is called freedom of Speech and should be allowed in a Democracy.
By Banning these things then you are the Nazi's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be careful with this kind of arguments.
Freedom of speech is usually a good thing, but always has some obvious limitation.
Should Osama Bin Laden be free to say everything he likes? Just a trivial example. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But he IS free to say everything he likes! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right but, according to several gouvernments, he shouldn't be: the hunt for Osama is mainly against what he says or thinks.
I could choose another example.
The article 414 of italian criminal code roughly says: everyboby giving public support in making crimes is punished...
So, even having a constitutional right about free speeching, some speechings are banned.

Dominicrigg
03-08-2005, 06:41 AM
There will always be gullible idiots who follow these trends. Ignorance is the real reason and ignorant people will become nazis/haters of democracy, blame jews/blacks ect for their weakness. If any of the current nazis bothered to look into the history of the "glorious years" then they would realise it was an economy built on weapon building (and later slave labour) which could not have been maintained in the long run.

Its sad its usually people who are dissafected with life who become like this and blame society. Blame other people around them. Those who have a legitimate right to blame society for their position usually dont complain and work 9 to 5 and get on with it.
Then there are the others who will blame anyone but themselves. The "always right" types with a chip on their shoulder, the types who will never learn from others and think they are always right. Its no wonder when they hear someone say "hey its not your fault, its the government, its the jews!" that they jump to their side in agreement.

Banning symbols is not to "hide the past" and any german will tell you they are well educated to the History of Nazi germany. The reason to ban symbols is because of the extreme offence it causes some groups (jewish people ect) and the significant rallying point it makes. To say symbols mean nothing is very wrong.

If they were allowed you would have a rally in the street which would cause outrage and further hatred from people inside and against the movement. Creating a cycle of recruitment and hatred.

Luckily current leaders in Europe understand this and have banned use of nazi symbols salutes ect.

I personally dont find it offensive but i am understanding of those who do. The fact is this is a game and as such under the legislation cant use the symbol (As its not classed as education as someone earlier pointed out)

Those of us who want the sign in the game will be able to have it no doubt, it may even be in the British version where our censor laws are more relaxed.

Dominicrigg
03-08-2005, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
The article 414 of italian criminal code roughly says: everyboby giving public support in making crimes is punished...
So, even having a constitutional right about free speeching, some speechings are banned. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Free speech can only go so far before it encroaches on anothers rights. It has to be limited and people like Osama preaching hate and murder should quite obviously not have their speeches broadcast. It would be like broadcasting a daily newsprogram preaching how all women should be beaten. Just because wife beaters feel that way doesnt mean they have the right to tell everyone.

We still live in a democracy.

naturalhigh1985
03-08-2005, 06:56 AM
An economy built on weapon building, oh much like the economy in the USA today. Interesting.

So osakajoe, Germans are Nazis in your opinion? Well there we have it. The reason why the swastika is banned, because no matter what Germans do, in the minds of morons like Osakajoe, theyre Nazis.
So, they try and they try, but it just doesnt seem to help when theirs such a large proportion of idiots in the world

JG27_Arklight
03-08-2005, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>An economy built on weapon building, oh much like the economy in the USA today. Interesting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What?

That's funny. I live in the U.S. and our economy is hardly built around weapons construction.

Care to explain?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 08:59 AM
Oh, let's not get another thread deeply mired in politics. We all have different political opinions. Can't we just focus on our shared interests, rather than those that tear us apart?

EFileTahi-A
03-08-2005, 09:03 AM
I agree with beeryus extensive post but I also agree with Dominicrigg last post...

You buddies have valid points of views. Actually, they made me re-think about banned symbols...

Nukem_Hicks
03-08-2005, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Free speech can only go so far before it encroaches on anothers rights. It has to be limited and people like Osama preaching hate and murder should quite obviously not have their speeches broadcast. It would be like broadcasting a daily newsprogram preaching how all women should be beaten. Just because wife beaters feel that way doesnt mean they have the right to tell everyone.

We still live in a democracy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just my two cents worth, at least from an American legal perspective.

There is no such thing as completely free speech. Unless you are a member of Congress, various forms of speech are not protected by the Constitution. Obscenity, for instance, is outside the bounds of protected speech. Thus the censorship of sex-related curse words from the broadcast media. The same is true for shouting "fire" in a crowded theater (to use Holmes' famous example) or inciting immediate violence.

That being said, attempts to ban any other type of speech have run into serious resistance here, and with good reason. Any American likely remembers the PC movement (and no, not the computer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) of the '90s all too well (some of you may remember a DC official getting fired for saying the word "nigerdly" (sp?), a word meaning "thrifty", because of its close facial resemblance to the word "n1gger").More related to the swastika, hate speech has become a big issue in America today. Hate speech, however, is not obscenity. It is a form of political speech typically, and thus protected by the Constitution. And few Americans support the banishment of any form of political speech. It starts you down a slippery slope, a descent that is difficult to stop.

Those are the facts. I personally oppose the ban on the swastika simply because it is a ban on a form of political speech. Yes, the circumstances surrounding that particular symbol are horrible and offensive, but it is only one small step to move from banning the Nazi Party to banning a different political party for the same reasons.

A growing number of people across the world, including in Europe, don't know what the Holocaust was or don't believe it happened. Do we really want to shove Nazi history under the carpet at a time like this? The number of disbelievers is growing daily and the number of survivors is diminishing. Soon we will only have the textbooks to tell us what happened. We need Nazis to retain full political rights, if only to remind the rest of us of the horrors that occurred whilst they were in power. Shoving them under the carpet may appease sensitive emotions, but it won't make them disappear and won't help us educate new generations on the horrors of the Holocaust.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nukem_Hicks:
Just my two cents worth, at least from an American legal perspective.

There is no such thing as completely free speech. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's not exactly true, unless you physically gag someone. Freedom of speech is a right simply because curtailing it is almost impossible. You bring up the idea that shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre is an exception, but that's not true. I can shout 'Fire!' in my local theatre any time I want. My freedom to speak is not restricted. You're confusing freedom of speech with the repercussions of such freedom. Everything has repercussions, but that doesn't mean my freedom to shout 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre is restricted. They can make it difficult for me afterwards, but no one can take that freedom away from me unless they permanently gag me.

As for the legality, that's completely different. Certain freedoms are protected by the law, but that doesn't mean that non-protected speech isn't free. As for particularly American legality regarding political speech, until recently, the US would not allow ex-Communists or ex-Nazis to emigrate to the US, so the US is hardly consistent in its commitment to freedom of expression (legally or otherwise).

Just my 5c.

Apart from that. I agree with you.

Yohoho_75
03-08-2005, 09:56 AM
Gee interesting thread, made me also change my mind on the subject, especially Beeryus (leaving neo-nazism to the other side, Red and Black, is something rarely seen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif ).

Messervy
03-08-2005, 10:24 AM
I had somewhat simmilar experience as Beeryus, though I was never activly involved. I tend to find some bright exeptions in otherwise horrificaly dark hour of mankind.
I look upon nazism in just the same perpective as any other totalitarian system and to my dismay I found dubious democracys equaly disturbing in many aspects, since it is only a terror of majority over minority.

Delfin1941
03-08-2005, 11:12 AM
I found proof of that,.. Let's hope it will be there!!

Heil!hhhahh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_rc1/pat21.jpg

Osakajoe
03-08-2005, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
An economy built on weapon building, oh much like the economy in the USA today. Interesting.

So osakajoe, Germans are Nazis in your opinion? Well there we have it. The reason why the swastika is banned, because no matter what Germans do, in the minds of morons like Osakajoe, theyre Nazis.
So, they try and they try, but it just doesnt seem to help when theirs such a large proportion of idiots in the world <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only guy making an Idiot of himself here is you.
Your Goverments Policies have similarities to Nazi Policies on freedom of speech and expression.
Maybe they feel it's what they need to do'but it sows the seeds again......

By the way i spent this afternoon fixing an Ex SS Vets PC from the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.
Funny thing is he's not very Nazi'but more philosophical about the things he did and saw.
So i don't think all Germans are Nazi's'but your views are a bit extreme and tend to lean that way.
You want to banish all symbols and traces of what happened.So then it's easy to forget.
The German Goverment is the same and wo't allow anything with a Swastika on it.Well in 100 years in Germany a New ****tyness may arise and because we have forgotten the Lessons of 33-45 it will get repeated.

Nukem_Hicks
03-08-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
Well, that's not exactly true, unless you physically gag someone. Freedom of speech is a right simply because curtailing it is almost impossible. You bring up the idea that shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre is an exception, but that's not true. I can shout 'Fire!' in my local theatre any time I want. My freedom to speak is not restricted. You're confusing freedom of speech with the repercussions of such freedom. Everything has repercussions, but that doesn't mean my freedom to shout 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre is restricted. They can make it difficult for me afterwards, but no one can take that freedom away from me unless they permanently gag me.

As for the legality, that's completely different. Certain freedoms are protected by the law, but that doesn't mean that non-protected speech isn't free. As for particularly American legality regarding political speech, until recently, the US would not allow ex-Communists or ex-Nazis to emigrate to the US, so the US is hardly consistent in its commitment to freedom of expression (legally or otherwise).

Just my 5c.

Apart from that. I agree with you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I should have clarified more. I was looking at this from a strictly constitutional view. You're right, it is impossible to prohibit speech. In terms of how protected that speech is from the government, however, there are some restrictions.

The fact that America used to prohibit immigration by ex-communists and ex-Nazis is quite ironic, considering that it was supposedly done to protect democratic feeling in America. It's like the old Catch-22 that democracy faces: what happens when a democratic people elect an authoritarian leader, such as has happened across South America? If memory serves me correctly, even Hitler gained power through a popular vote (although he retained and expanded that power through authoritarianism).

Jester_159th
03-08-2005, 01:18 PM
Many years back I read a book by a contemporary poet. I can't remember his name (Stephen something) but he had one small verse that has stayed with me since then.

"History repeats itself.
It has to.
No-one listens the first time."

I have been struck many times by how true these words are. It just struck me again reading this thread.

Nukem_Hicks
03-08-2005, 01:20 PM
Santayana's quote is the one that I keep thinking of while reading this thread.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Delfin1941
03-08-2005, 09:44 PM
Me, who comes from the same land as the designers of this game, I would say that we view the 'hammer and sickle' of communism the same way you view the swastika. I believe we have a bit more sympathy for the germans from ww2 then we have towards russians ~ and we are definately anti communist (the whole country is) considering how much the communist idea and and soviet empire made the poeple of eastern Europe suffer. (We don't like russians too much, I admitt that it's like that, but at the same time we know that communism was no 'created' by the Russians, but was "imported" there.
So, the same way you guys in the west view nazis and the swastika as oppressive and evil.. well we, who come from behind the Iron curtain have a totally different view of things.
The crimes of the nazis have been judged (hell, they paid even for things they did not do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif)..but the crimes of communism..have not been judged and possibly never will be.

That's because the winner writes history and must never appologize for anything he does.
(And he also makes the looser pay 1000x more then he in fact should)

A.Marinesko
03-09-2005, 02:20 AM
Delfin1941, how come you are talking "Nazi crimes" and the "crimes of communism" but fail to mention "Romania's crimes"?

Surely, there can be much said on that particular subject? There were 850,000 Jews in Romania in 1940. Today - less then 8,000. And let's not forget the atrocities comitted by Romanian army in Soviet Bessarabia in 1941-1944.

Sure, Nazis were bad! And the Communists were bad! But, as much as Romania is concerned, both, the Nazis and the Communists, had great many rather willing Romanian "Santa's little helpers" to do their bidding for them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's because the winner writes history and must never appologize for anything he does.
(And he also makes the looser pay 1000x more then he in fact should) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't remember this particular looser (Romania) do a whole lot of apologizing. Or a whole lot of paying. Some things never change. Romania mare mamaliga nare??

naturalhigh1985
03-09-2005, 02:43 AM
Its not as clear as communists are bad...
Dont have to be.
I dont think the system in Cuba is evil or bad, I think the image we get of Cuba is very American and filled massively with propaganda.

The russians committed many crimes during WW2, considering the sinking of a ship transporting refugees during the war, a disaster greater than the Titanic. I am not exactly sure but I think over 2000 people died in the sinking...
BUt it was covered up until recently because the russians were allies!

Anyway, again, I agree with the banning of the swastika. in fact, its half asses, they should ban alot more not just the swastika. Because the nazis dont run around with swastikas, because theyre illegal, instead they run around with the Kriegsmarine Flag (the black cross with the white background), so theyre still easily identifiable. So, they have a red flag, without the swastika, but the meanings still there.
So the problem is rather not the banning but that it doesnt help in the least, because they run out wiht a flag which is still easily recognisable, but legal. And then, lets not drag Germany through the dirt, nor the government. So please refrain from insulting my country. I dont think free speech includes dragging other nations through the dirt in a public forum simply to hit nerves. Sure if it was unbiased... but its not is it. And its pretty obvious you just wanna kick someone ***, and thatd be me.

Anyway i am dreadfully sick of even discussing this. again this topic should have been locked ages ago. the lack of moderation in this forum is absolutely unbelievable.

AlwaysDead
03-09-2005, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hakentt:
I can't believe you guys. All of you are pathetic. You are HERE in this "silent hunter 3" forum because you LOVE U-boats from WW2 a NAZI U-boats that sunk so many ships and killed unarmed merchant sailors. I have a big simphathy for Kriegsmarine back from 40s. They are my heroes.

Americans are killing people in Iraq as we speak but I see no american flag being banned in EU. Ok lets take a look at it this way. Add the people killed by USA force from year '41 to'05. Am positive the number will exeed the Nazi Civilian Kill number.

Its all politics. I think missing swastika from historic game like this is gay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, it´s morons like him that justifies a ban for swastikas.

Not beeing a fan of GWB and thinking that the operation "Iraki Freedom" was just a justification for the US get thier hands on the worlds second large crude oil reserves i think that comparing the USA to Nazi-Germany is plain and simple a crime!

naturalhigh1985
03-09-2005, 05:39 AM
True the Nazis didnt kill people for oil.

JG27_Arklight
03-09-2005, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
True the Nazis didnt kill people for oil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Niether do Americans. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AlwaysDead
03-09-2005, 05:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
True the Nazis didnt kill people for oil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, they killed ppl because of thier ethnic heritage.

AlwaysDead
03-09-2005, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
True the Nazis didnt kill people for oil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Niether do Americans. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, ....that´s a point we could do some flaming discussions, but i don´t want to. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTT i don´t give a rats @ss about the swastikas, driving a U-Boat i coulden´t see them either.

JG27_Arklight
03-09-2005, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlwaysDead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
True the Nazis didnt kill people for oil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Niether do Americans. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, ....that´s a point we could do some flaming discussions, but i don´t want to. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Crude is cheaper to buy then to take and refine.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
03-09-2005, 06:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
Crude is cheaper to buy then to take and refine.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that depends a lot on OPEC's prices and its willingness to produce it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG27_Arklight
03-09-2005, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
Crude is cheaper to buy then to take and refine.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that depends a lot on OPEC's prices and its willingness to produce it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The willingness is always there as long as the money is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Which reminds me...gas prices are going up over here and it is really starting to piss me off. lol

xrvjorn
03-09-2005, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturalhigh1985:
True the Nazis didnt kill people for oil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The oil fields in the Caucasus was the original goal for the Army Group South's 1942 offensive.

Also, a lot of slave workers died, working in the synthetical oil production at IG Farben Buna Werke.

Delfin1941
03-09-2005, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.Marinesko:
...There were 850,000 Jews in Romania in 1940. Today - less then 8,000. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) So what are you saying here? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
We killed 842,000 Jews? You wish.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Most of them Immigrated back to Israel years later in good health and in one piece. Until 1989, it was the misery and the ceausescu regime that made the remaining jews flee.
(some jews missing, believed to have died in holocaust turned up alive and well in Brooklyn NY, years later after the war) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I also don't think we should appologize for somthing that is grately exagerated today, and told in the usual "1 truth and 2 lies" manner.
Before we start appologizing, I wanna know the WHOLE truth. Also I'd like to see the "other side" appologize as well, so far - dead silence.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.Marinesko:
And let's not forget the atrocities comitted by Romanian army in Soviet Bessarabia in 1941-1944. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2) Bassarabia is Romanian not Soviet.
[and was so for the whole 1941-1944 period]
Do you feel it's Soviet?

What if I said Jerusalem belongs to Palestinians? (the same way you feel about Bassarabia, the same I feel about jerusalem)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

A.Marinesko
03-09-2005, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Delfin1941:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.Marinesko:
...There were 850,000 Jews in Romania in 1940. Today - less then 8,000. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) So what are you saying here? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
We killed 842,000 Jews? You wish.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Most of them Immigrated back to Israel years later in good health and in one piece. Until 1989, it was the misery and the ceausescu regime that made the remaining jews flee.
(some jews missing, believed to have died in holocaust turned up alive and well in Brooklyn NY, years later after the war) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I also don't think we should appologize for somthing that is grately exagerated today, and told in the usual "1 truth and 2 lies" manner.
Before we start appologizing, I wanna know the WHOLE truth. Also I'd like to see the "other side" appologize as well, so far - dead silence.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find it very telling that you think that the "other side", i.e. the Jews have to apologise to you for something. It shows your true colors rather well. You'd make the Iron Guard very proud.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Delfin1941:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.Marinesko:
And let's not forget the atrocities comitted by Romanian army in Soviet Bessarabia in 1941-1944. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2) Bassarabia is Romanian not Soviet.
[and was so for the whole 1941-1944 period]
Do you feel it's Soviet? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, in your opinion, the single fact that Romania annexed those territories for a brief period of 1918-1940 and 1940-1944, makes Romanian atrocities there somehow legitimate?

I noticed that you did not even attempt to deny that the Romanian atrocities in question were indeed, comitted. You're making a progress!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Delfin1941:
What if I said Jerusalem belongs to Palestinians? (the same way you feel about Bassarabia, the same I feel about jerusalem)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've made your true feelings regarding Jews known very well the first time around. There is no need to overdo it.

Philipscdrw
03-09-2005, 11:51 AM
In summary, from the screenshots it looks like SH3 (West of Calais Edition) has swastikas, and the German government is perfectly capable of making its own decision on the morality of banning swastikas without the input of armchair sociologists like us.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-09-2005, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
In summary, from the screenshots it looks like SH3 (West of Calais Edition) has swastikas, and the German government is perfectly capable of making its own decision on the morality of banning swastikas without the input of armchair sociologists like us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I very much doubt that anyone in the German government is reading these forums, and I don't think that anyone here thinks that what we discuss here is meant to alter German national policy. It's just discussion. Personally, I wish certain people (I don't mean you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) wouldn't take it so seriously.

JG27_Arklight
03-09-2005, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
In summary, from the screenshots it looks like SH3 (West of Calais Edition) has swastikas, and the German government is perfectly capable of making its own decision on the morality of banning swastikas without the input of armchair sociologists like us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I very much doubt that anyone in the German government is reading these forums, and I don't think that anyone here thinks that what we discuss here is meant to alter German national policy. It's just discussion. Personally, I wish certain people (I don't mean you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) wouldn't take it so seriously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Apparently I take everything too seriously.

The day before yesterday somebody told me I was "the center of all the hostility in the forums".

News to me!

LOL

nstutt
03-09-2005, 02:07 PM
Its similar to not being able to pronounce 'Voldemort' in Harry Potter. I mean the Nazis and swastikas are a permanent part of our history. 'Not allowing them' doesnt change that in any way, shape or form. Its pitiful the way we are babyminded by politicians these days and it really is starting to get on my nerves.
Nats

W0lf_L4rsen
05-25-2005, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by A.Marinesko:
Delfin1941, how come you are talking "Nazi crimes" and the "crimes of communism" but fail to mention "Romania's crimes"?

Surely, there can be much said on that particular subject? There were 850,000 Jews in Romania in 1940. Today - less then 8,000. And let's not forget the atrocities comitted by Romanian army in Soviet Bessarabia in 1941-1944.

Sure, Nazis were bad! And the Communists were bad! But, as much as Romania is concerned, both, the Nazis and the Communists, had great many rather willing Romanian "Santa's little helpers" to do their bidding for them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's because the winner writes history and must never appologize for anything he does.
(And he also makes the looser pay 1000x more then he in fact should)

Well, I don't remember this particular looser (Romania) do a whole lot of apologizing. Or a whole lot of paying. Some things never change. Romania mare mamaliga nare?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr.Marinesko i recomend you to take some books and read more about .... dont tell me that in a world lead by jews you finaly find the truth. You say that Antonescu killed jews ? Well its not true. The situation was that 99% of jews was communists and he represed the communists ... its nobodys fault that they invented the comunists. About the massacre of Odessa when the communists jews blow up a german-romanian base Antonescu's orders was enough clear : "For every romanian soldier killed we will kill 100 communists and for every romanian officer we will kill 200 communists" ... the faith made that almost all of them were communists.
What about in 1940 when USSR give Romanian a 3 day ultimatum to live Basarabia and Bucovina which was romanians for more than 1000 years and they didnt respect those 3 days ... they begin to attack in 1 hour. I saw copyies of romanian officers retreating from Basarabia and Bucovina and i saw the atrocities done by communists jews against romanians who let them live on romanian land in peace.
So Mr.Marinesko if you are romanian and you lived in communism you have to know what jews bring to us. And dont forget that the last man who lead Romania corectly was Ion Antonescu. After the war the communists jews executed him for a lot of reasons invented by them but it was only one reason that they cant con****ed him ... he didnt take any goods for himself in particulary because all his life was bussy with taking care for Romania.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-25-2005, 01:30 PM
Oh Jeez! Here we go again.

Boo-hoo, the Jews are to blame for everything - WAAAAAAHH!

Grow up! Jeez, I mean get some backbone! Those who seek to blame an entire race for their misfortunes are the worst sort of cowards.

tinneri
05-25-2005, 02:17 PM
Most of you REALLY don't even know the history of using "swastika"...

since 1918- (http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/hakaristi.htm)

Finnish airforce 1918- (http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/thulin.html)

<A HREF="http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2399-lippu_laplsto.gif" TARGET=_blank>STILL under use...

</A>several hunred years old religious symbol too... (http://www.boners.com/grub/789021.html)

Allso it has been used by nazis for little awhile...

shaggyofwv
05-25-2005, 02:18 PM
I believe it to be "revisionist history". They want to forget such things ever happened and that leads to them happening again in the future. You know what they say about history... Those who forget it are condemned to repeat it...

VF-17_Jolly
05-25-2005, 02:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

It`s not the symbol it`s the context it was used in. History should be seen in all it`s gory detail good or bad.I don`t believe in the brush it under the carpet some people have if all the facts are in the open there is no missunderstanding. If somthing is hidden someone will discover it and use it in the wrong way. If it is always remembered it cannot happen again

The_Third_Half
05-25-2005, 02:56 PM
dont tell me that in a world lead by jews you finaly find the truth.

This sentence alone, says soo much about you.

You don't happen to be on the Isreali Government's " wanted list " are you Mr.Himmler, er i mean .. Whatever... fools like you are nothing but racist hate mongers.

Mittelwaechter
05-25-2005, 04:06 PM
Gentlemen,
I'll try to give you some insight into the german law concerning swastikas and other Nazi insignias:

86 - Summary
Items that are used for making propaganda for a party or group which is classed as unconstitutional or forbidden, even if they act outside Gemany, may not be spread inside Germany. This applies for items made to propagade ideas that correspond with the ideas of the "Third Reich". They might not be made, kept, imported or exported. The punishment may be prison (up to three years) or money.
This does not apply if those items are used in order to inform others, repel actions that are aimed against the constitution, if they are used in art, science, research, teaching, or to report about historical events or similar purposes.

86a - Summary
If you use or show symbols or signs used by parties or groups that can be classified as unconstitutional, or if you manufacture, keep, export or import those, you may be punished (three years imprisonment or money). You may not use or spread items that display or contain those signs or symbols, e.g. flags, insignia, uniforms (or parts of uniforms), mottos and forms of greeting. You may also not use or spread signs or symbols that look similar to those.
This does not apply if those items are used in order to inform others, repel actions that are aimed against the constitution, if they are used in art, science, research, teaching, or to report about historical events or similar purposes.

Would you designate SH3 "Art"? I guess everybody in Germany knows the swastikas, no need to implement them in the game.

- my two cents

Night_Crawler
05-25-2005, 07:56 PM
Every country on earth was/is bad, and all started at "before Christ".

The german took that idea of nazi sign on there flag, When the Roman's conquer half europe.
Flag with eagle.

Even South Africa farmer almost the same sign on there flag and yes they are nazi too, i doubt it if that party still exist?

Even Russia was bad, When Stalin was there, he killed 1/3 of his population because those people are agains Stalin.

I can understand why the SHIII crew let the nazi flag out of the game, it's just up to the player if he want that nazi flag or not... to make a game little more realistic.
I was surpriced when i saw a red flag with a white ball in the middle have to laugh *sensore-ship* i can live with that, when i saw a flag-mod, yes all the flags are correct.. do i am a nazi? because i play a german Uboot commander?

~PEACE & GAME ON~

Eurynomos666
05-25-2005, 08:20 PM
my two thoughts on this topic:

Why in hisorical simulation games like Silent Hunter III swastikas are forbitten in Germany? But In USA the unrealistic terrorist or postiraq war games are top selling (zero hour)?

My guess? In next 10 years the games that contain any content about Terrorists, Bush, Osama, Hussain will be forbidden -_-' (and don't tell me that it will help to learn to not repeat the errors from the past)

Luv_Muffin
05-25-2005, 09:07 PM
http://img286.echo.cx/img286/305/04962fb.jpg

Eurynomos666
05-25-2005, 09:18 PM
/ban Luv_Muffin

but seriously, if you don't like it - don't post here -_-

W0lf_L4rsen
05-26-2005, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by The_Third_Half:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> dont tell me that in a world lead by jews you finaly find the truth.

This sentence alone, says soo much about you.

You don't happen to be on the Isreali Government's " wanted list " are you Mr.Himmler, er i mean .. Whatever... fools like you are nothing but racist hate mongers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I dont care about jews and their gov ... did u know that in Romania if you are contest the Holocaust and his consequences the punish is between 1 and 5 years ... is this sound a little communist ? I have to take care about what am i talking .... it past 15 year from the anticommunist revolution in Romania and the jews are everywhere again demanding money because they were victims .... i saw in the subway station a big poster : " call xxx.xx.xx and tell us if u know a old romanian who killed jews in time of WWII ... you can earn 10.000 E ". They are desperate to prove that we romanians kill them ... not for principles but to demand some money. If i was jew i never talk about this shame that they didnt take the polish and serbs and french (maybe is not the best ex.) example in WWII and make a army and fight against the germans. Did anyone sow a army of jews defending their teritory ? NO ! Why all the people are blaming them ? Because thei are the chosen ppl and the others are not ? NO Im waiting you to give me the answer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

alanschu
05-26-2005, 01:07 AM
I can't understand why you brought this thread back from the dead!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Tomus
05-26-2005, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by W0lf_L4rsen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The_Third_Half:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> dont tell me that in a world lead by jews you finaly find the truth.

This sentence alone, says soo much about you.

You don't happen to be on the Isreali Government's " wanted list " are you Mr.Himmler, er i mean .. Whatever... fools like you are nothing but racist hate mongers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I dont care about jews and their gov ... did u know that in Romania if you are contest the Holocaust and his consequences the punish is between 1 and 5 years ... is this sound a little communist ? I have to take care about what am i talking .... it past 15 year from the anticommunist revolution in Romania and the jews are everywhere again demanding money because they were victims .... i saw in the subway station a big poster : " call xxx.xx.xx and tell us if u know a old romanian who killed jews in time of WWII ... you can earn 10.000 E ". They are desperate to prove that we romanians kill them ... not for principles but to demand some money. If i was jew i never talk about this shame that they didnt take the polish and serbs and french (maybe is not the best ex.) example in WWII and make a army and fight against the germans. Did anyone sow a army of jews defending their teritory ? NO ! Why all the people are blaming them ? Because thei are the chosen ppl and the others are not ? NO Im waiting you to give me the answer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your arguement is fundamentally flawed.

Most Jews considered themselves German or Polish or whatever. It was Hitler that actually galvanised European Jews into thinking of themselves as one nation one people. Ironically this was something that 19th Century Zionists had been trying to get for years without much success. But thinking that the Jews could somehow form an army is ridiculous, The Jew was by nature a displaced person that had no boundary and national territory to defend. Is your knowledge of history so bad that you thought there was actually a Jewish state that Hitler invaded? What exactly did you expect them to do?

But despite all this Jews did fight back in Warsaw and there many Jewish regiments in the British and American armies.

Lovo_Kasistan
05-26-2005, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by W0lf_L4rsen:
Did anyone sow a army of jews defending their teritory ? NO !
1. What territory?

2. Yes, I saw one: Jewish Brigade in WWII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade)

Now take down your right arm and shave off this little beard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

P.S. Has somebody connections to the Mossad? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

The_Third_Half
05-26-2005, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by W0lf_L4rsen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The_Third_Half:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> dont tell me that in a world lead by jews you finaly find the truth.

This sentence alone, says soo much about you.

You don't happen to be on the Isreali Government's " wanted list " are you Mr.Himmler, er i mean .. Whatever... fools like you are nothing but racist hate mongers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I dont care about jews and their gov ... did u know that in Romania if you are contest the Holocaust and his consequences the punish is between 1 and 5 years ... is this sound a little communist ? I have to take care about what am i talking .... it past 15 year from the anticommunist revolution in Romania and the jews are everywhere again demanding money because they were victims .... i saw in the subway station a big poster : " call xxx.xx.xx and tell us if u know a old romanian who killed jews in time of WWII ... you can earn 10.000 E ". They are desperate to prove that we romanians kill them ... not for principles but to demand some money. If i was jew i never talk about this shame that they didnt take the polish and serbs and french (maybe is not the best ex.) example in WWII and make a army and fight against the germans. Did anyone sow a army of jews defending their teritory ? NO ! Why all the people are blaming them ? Because thei are the chosen ppl and the others are not ? NO Im waiting you to give me the answer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One question, did you work the "Showers " or the Medical " health" center at your summer camp ?

jagtigermk2
05-26-2005, 08:09 AM
Why did you not ban the ST Georges flag from the game asswell, we were evil bastards, thats why we had a huge empire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Banning the flag in Germany will not help things, if anythink it will make it worse.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-26-2005, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by The_Third_Half:
One question, did you work the "Showers " or the Medical " health" center at your summer camp ?

Oh man, you are bad! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif