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SpitfireSeafire
02-03-2005, 05:49 PM
Lately I have taken a lot of interest in this plane and I decided to start to fly it. I am very new to this game and was wondering if any of you had opinions of this plane? How does it fare against other planes etc.? Any tips or tricks for it?

Opinions?

3.JG51_BigBear
02-03-2005, 06:05 PM
I have an opinion but sharing it will get me a two week vacation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. The plane doesn't take that much to fly. It outperforms any other twin in the game and what it can't outturn it can boom n zoom. The armament is insane too, makes a great bomber interceptor http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif. Honestly, I don't like this plane just because it never flew, participated in the war, etc and just about everything about it is a guess.

ImpStarDuece
02-03-2005, 07:17 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

I dont want to sound too harsh but the 109Z is a flying abomination fit only for those who seem to think that shooting down you opponent in the best plane with the best guns is what the sim is all about.

OK, maybe thats a little strong but i really would rather see people in a K4 or a Ki-81c rather than the 109Z.

Honesly, having played around with it in the QMB it feels like playing an arcade game. Just one pass and anything either blows up, sheds a wing/tail or turns into a candle. It out runs almost anything with a prop, out zooms anything, turns like a zero and has more firepower than a medium bomber.

Still, going up against one online I am usually pretty confident. Most, butnot all, people who fly it are usually 'AirQuakers' and can be suckered into bleeding E and done away with fairly easily. Thank heavens. If any serious pilots used it nothing else has a chance.

You wont see it on any of the full real servers. It mostly hang aound in the 'free for all' dogfight servers; any plane, cockpit off, style of thing.

volkware.xyz
02-03-2005, 08:10 PM
It was built, and it *would* have flown - if I recall from someone`s notes (1C`s?) the Zwilling was destroyed before it could make its prototype flights, or after only a few of them.

Have fun. I love the plane. I find it has very good acceleration, but it is still within the realm of a high-end late war prop plane. It seems slightly less nimble (to me... no expert) than a normal 109 and it is an inherently larger target for the enemy. It has superb firepower but it must be utilized in short bursts - the airframe of the plane is still quite small when one considers accommodation for 5 or even 6 gun feeds. Its also just about as vulnerable as the planes its made from: lots of engine damage from the slightest plink.

Very real, its also very wierd... love it.

ImpStarDeuce,

I like the sensation of flight. I don`t play to win, thats not my point in playing games - I play to have fun. Flying an aircraft like the Zwilling, the 162, the Russian rocket beast (!), 262, 229, etc. is an experience unlike that of normal aircraft. I like normal aircraft too, especially as well as they are implemented in this sim.

If you`re such a ****-hot pilot, why ***** about a plane whose operators you can blast out of the sky? Sorry, but this hard-assed balls-to-the-wall kind of machismo is really lame. This plane is part of aeronautical warfare history, just like any other, whether it conforms to your absolute concepts of fairplay or not. It deserves to be here, and I`m glad it is. Its a joy to fly.

If I ever join a multiplayer online server, I hope sincerely to be able to access "superior planes" in order to compensate for my lack of Top Gun skill, especially if cockpits are on, which in my opinion is BRUTAL to fly with. Interesting atmospherically but still brutal.

When I occassionally get suckered in to playing a versus with my flight leader, I need an edge. A superior craft to my opponent is that edge. If I win, we jostle our aircraft selections appropriately. Something like the 109Z simply adds to our options... he doesn`t always have to take some aluminum junk.

As for the 109Z`s abilities in gunnery... umm, yea, an array of 30mm guns tends to do that. Just as it does on the 262 (4 30s) or the Bf-110 G2 with guntray (4 20mms + 2 30s)... and the 110 was 1942! Bum-Da-Bum-Bum... . Also consider the Hs-219 Owl, with I believe in one configuration had 5 30s and a 20... more maneuverable/faster than a 110 and 250+ were built in `43 (?). Invalid? I don`t think so.

VW-IceFire
02-03-2005, 09:04 PM
I hunt these things with reckless abandon. What the 109Z does not have is a good turn. Its ok, but not fantastic. Its got everything else: firepower, speed, climb.

This is the plane that taught me that you must either be attacking your opponent or be nowhere near him. If a 109Z locks on, you're unlikely to live through the first barrage.

_Neveraine_
02-03-2005, 09:42 PM
Alot of people have issues with the bf109Z, personally my only issue with it is that its the 109G based model not the 109F based model (the one actually built)

ColoradoBBQ
02-03-2005, 09:47 PM
If I was a Luftwaffe pilot back there, I would have turn my nose up at this unatural contraption and suggest we should have spent more money on improving the jet aircraft.

ImpStarDuece
02-03-2005, 10:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warlok_0:
It was built, and it *would* have flown - if I recall from someone`s notes (1C`s?) the Zwilling was destroyed before it could make its prototype flights, or after only a few of them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was built, but i think it was a pair of F bodies not G bodies that were put together. I could be wrong, i often am.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ImpStarDeuce,

I like the sensation of flight. I don`t play to win, thats not my point in playing games - I play to have fun. Flying an aircraft like the Zwilling, the 162, the Russian rocket beast (!), 262, 229, etc. is an experience unlike that of normal aircraft. I like normal aircraft too, especially as well as they are implemented in this sim.

If you`re such a ****-hot pilot, why ***** about a plane whose operators you can blast out of the sky? Sorry, but this hard-assed balls-to-the-wall kind of machismo is really lame. This plane is part of aeronautical warfare history, just like any other, whether it conforms to your absolute concepts of fairplay or not. It deserves to be here, and I`m glad it is. Its a joy to fly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well a [insertexpletivehere] pilot i'm not, nor did i ever claimto be. I have played this game for a long time but got online only recently and it just irks me a little when out of 20 or 30 players on a server 5 or 6 will fly jets or 'never flowns' and ruin a closely matched game. I am starting to see where all the whining material comes from. Might go back to my campaign building soon.

I too fly for the enjoyment of it. Thats the only reason to fly, enjoyment. The love of the game. I am a far better DEFENSIVE pilot than an offensive one. But IL2 is like all games, you play to win as much as you play to take part and have fun.


The reason to [insertexpetivehere] about it is that I can. Simple as that. I dont like it, wont fly it on-line and dont believe in the flying soley to win school of thought. I just think that the people who fly it do. I would rather lose a fight in a biplane than win a fight in a Me-162. I just enjoy the early birds a little more, i think they have a lot more personality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If I ever join a multiplayer online server, I hope sincerely to be able to access "superior planes" in order to compensate for my lack of Top Gun skill, especially if cockpits are on, which in my opinion is BRUTAL to fly with. Interesting atmospherically but still brutal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My take on this is if you want to get better put yourself at the same level or at a disadvantage to your opponent. This way you know that when you do get a kill it was skill and not the superior plane.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When I occassionally get suckered in to playing a versus with my flight leader, I need an edge. A superior craft to my opponent is that edge. If I win, we jostle our aircraft selections appropriately. Something like the 109Z simply adds to our options... he doesn`t always have to take some aluminum junk.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool, good for you. I'd still rather get beaten in an equal fight than win in an unbalanced one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for the 109Z`s abilities in gunnery... umm, yea, an array of 30mm guns tends to do that. Just as it does on the 262 (4 30s) or the Bf-110 G2 with guntray (4 20mms + 2 30s)... and the 110 was 1942! Bum-Da-Bum-Bum... . Also consider the Hs-219 Owl, with I believe in one configuration had 5 30s and a 20... more maneuverable/faster than a 110 and 250+ were built in `43 (?). Invalid? I don`t think so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgive me if i'm wrong but wasn't toe mk 103 and 108 deployed around mid 1943? Again, apologies if i'm wrong but the 110 G2 we have is supposed to represent a late war nightfighter bird with an armament designed to bring down multi-tonne, multi-engined bombers, not single engined fighters. And the Uhu with the 5 (?) 30mms and the 20mms was the 'schrage musik'-slanted music, German slang for Jazz, night fighter bird, agian designed to intercept and destroy heavy bombers.

I dont want to start anything Warlok i just posted my opinion and i felt that you misrepresent said opinions unfairly. You like the late wa birds and I like the early war stuff. We both enjoy the game, fly for similar reasons, but enjoy different things in the game.

p1ngu666
02-03-2005, 10:39 PM
i think a luft flier jg53something said mk108 rolled off the production line in december 43...
g2, and g6 where used in 44 ofcouse and got the upgrade. tis a shame its not on seporate plane, so u could limit its use in a dogfight server http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

only action 109z saw was when a bomb hit it. unsubstantiated reports it also saw a mad scientists expiriments with female human twins, for inspiration ofcouse http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Badsight.
02-03-2005, 11:00 PM
lots of : "Whaa Whaaa Whaaaaa" going on in this thread

as a Flight Simmer , liking firepower is natural , as is firepower envy it seems

cause firepower envy is literally ooozing out of some peoples posts

fact is , . . . . the Bf109-Z is a hella sweet ride , it flys great , whats not to like ?

nothing ! , because its a genuine good performer

civildog
02-03-2005, 11:08 PM
Maybe we ought to all just drop our drawers and see who's packing the real firepower around here?!

Lukki
02-04-2005, 06:31 AM
The 109Z is not a finished design! Why have 2 pairs of landing gear in the front?!

Considering how well it does fly at the moment, it's amazing the germans didn't invent it earlier and use it as heavy fighter, fighter-bomber, interceptor, or just fighter. Think of a 109Z that was fully thought over! It would pwn P38 so hard in the heavy fighter role. Though sitting on the left is a bit awkward. The P-38 could actually be as good, if it didn't weigh as much, and had clipped wings and a tighter fuselage and stuff. The cramped nature of the 109 shines. And the DB605 is a superb engine..

MEGILE
02-04-2005, 06:34 AM
I fly BF-109Z on Warclouds nearly everyday.

What's your problem? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

womenfly
02-04-2005, 10:17 AM
Bf 109Z "Zwilling"

The most ambitious version of the Bf 109 ever built was the Zwilling, or Siamese-Twins, derivative in which two Messerschmitt Bf 109F aircraft were combined together. The original concept was studied earlier by Generaloberst Ernst Udet, whom in 1940, had proposed the twinning of two Heinkel He 111 bombers to produce a tug sufficiently powerful enough for towing the Me 321 and Ju 322 gliders then in development. The success of He 111 twinning led to the study by the Messerschmitt Office of a similar twinning involving two Bf 109 fighters to get a heavy destroyer, similiar to the Bf 110. The first project was started using two airframes and engines of the Messerschmitt Bf 109F. While work on the first prototype was in progress, Messerschmitt studied a similar project, but this time using two Messerschmitt Bf 109Gs or " Gustavs " and equipped with DB 605 or Jumo 213E engines. The prototype of the Zwilling 109F was completed in 1943, with a final weight of 13,000 pounds. Preparations for flight testing had just been finished, when the prototype was heavily damaged during an allied aerial raid on Germany, and so the Zwilling was never tested in flight. Coincidently, a similar development of the North American P51-D Mustang was conceived of in late 1944, emerging in April 1945 as the P-82 "Twin Mustang".

http://www.totel.ru/~TRAMP/mess/3bm109z.jpg

Interesting aircraft, fun to fly .... fictional in historical gaming.

http://www.wasp-wwii.org/wasp/images/fifinell.gif

Womenfly2

Badsight.
02-04-2005, 01:06 PM
P-82 had a cockpit & flight controls on both sides no ?

looks like it in the pictures of them

Atomic_Marten
02-04-2005, 01:40 PM
I ain't much of a fun of rare birds especially if I find it ugly by my 'standards'. And this 'baby' is *IMHO* in top three ugliest in the game.

Nonetheless, it is a great plane by performance standards of that time. Twin engine gives it a great performance. It has great armament too.

Saburo_0
02-04-2005, 01:44 PM
It's an interesting what if. Seems to have almost no flaws. Were the props contra rotating ?

As good as it is in FB it seems the Germans's might have been better off building this than jets. Certainly fewer technical problems to run up against. (like metalurgy issues etc in the jets.)

pourshot
02-04-2005, 02:22 PM
The thing that bugs me with this plane is were did the fight data come from? We know Oleg is very fussy about accurate performance data so its amazing to me that he allowed it into the game as flyable. Look how hard it is to get important planes included and then to waste time on this thing is a joke.

Badsight.
02-04-2005, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saburo_0:
It's an interesting what if. Seems to have almost no flaws. Were the props contra rotating ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*cough* flies like the P-38 should *cough*

but id still rather have a Schwalb anyday

Daiichidoku
02-04-2005, 02:48 PM
I try to stay civil about the 109Z.....

Shouldnt be in FB at all
Only one was built, based on an F model 109, and NEVER flew...that alone should disqualify it from a WWII combat flight sim...the FM of this bird has NO basis in reality, only estimates....a purely speculative FM

The Z in FB is actually based on the G model 109 twinned, which was never even built, only proposed...making this type even further removed from "validitity" for inclusion in FB...its (the one we have in FB)technically a paper plane, never flew, never built...I shudder to think of the myriad other paper types that could seemingly now be considered "legit" for FB

Due to game engine limitations (or so Ive been told) the fact that the Z cockpit is offset does not apply, and view from cockpit appears that IT is on the centerline, and will roll about this axis, instead of what SHOULD be, a roll around the axis of the true centerline of the plane, about 6 feet in from the cockpit

The Z flies with a FM that is speculative...probably flies more like the P 38 actually should in FB...funny how the type with the FAKE FM and props the turn the same direction has very little, almost no torque effect, while the counter-rotating props in the P-38 seem to do nothing, and the P 38 posesses the most torque effects of any twin in the game


Its a fictional type that should not be in FB, I feel only disdain for anyone I see flying it...may as well be an x-wing or TIE fighter floating about, they are just as real as the G model based 109Z

Badsight.
02-04-2005, 03:22 PM
the single prototype was based on 2 F model fuselarges true

but if it was ever going to get produced , it would have used the serial G model (G6 most common) , be sure

Badsight.
02-04-2005, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
The Z flies with a FM that is speculative..._probably_ flies more like the P 38 actually should in FB...funny how the type with the FAKE FM and props the turn the same direction has very little, almost no torque effect, while the counter-rotating props in the P-38 seem to do nothing, and the P 38 posesses the most torque effects of any twin in the game
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>so true . . . .

volkware.xyz
02-04-2005, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Well a [insertexpletivehere] pilot i'm not, nor did i ever claimto be. I have played this game for a long time but got online only recently and it just irks me a little when out of 20 or 30 players on a server 5 or 6 will fly jets or 'never flowns' and ruin a closely matched game. I am starting to see where all the whining material comes from. Might go back to my campaign building soon.

I too fly for the enjoyment of it. Thats the only reason to fly, enjoyment. The love of the game. I am a far better DEFENSIVE pilot than an offensive one. But IL2 is like all games, you play to win as much as you play to take part and have fun.


The reason to [insertexpetivehere] about it is that I can. Simple as that. I dont like it, wont fly it on-line and dont believe in the flying soley to win school of thought. I just think that the people who fly it do. I would rather lose a fight in a biplane than win a fight in a Me-162. I just enjoy the early birds a little more, i think they have a lot more personality.

My take on this is if you want to get better put yourself at the same level or at a disadvantage to your opponent. This way you know that when you do get a kill it was skill and not the superior plane.

Cool, good for you. I'd still rather get beaten in an equal fight than win in an unbalanced one.


Forgive me if i'm wrong but wasn't toe mk 103 and 108 deployed around mid 1943? Again, apologies if i'm wrong but the 110 G2 we have is supposed to represent a late war nightfighter bird with an armament designed to bring down multi-tonne, multi-engined bombers, not single engined fighters. And the Uhu with the 5 (?) 30mms and the 20mms was the 'schrage musik'-slanted music, German slang for Jazz, night fighter bird, agian designed to intercept and destroy heavy bombers.

I dont want to start anything Warlok i just posted my opinion and i felt that you misrepresent said opinions unfairly. You like the late wa birds and I like the early war stuff. We both enjoy the game, fly for similar reasons, but enjoy different things in the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You condescendingly condemned those of us who enjoy flying what you call unfair inclusions in the sim. I object to that characterization. To each his own, free speech etc. etc. .

Of course winning a fair fight is more rewarding. I`m not the only appreciator of interesting German hardware to grasp that. If one gets a kill in a superior plane against a superior pilot, is that not an equation that merits applause? How often has it been said that it is the pilot, not the plane that makes the difference? My point is that, in the aforementioned circumstance of me versus my flight leader, flying a superior aircraft against him *is* a fair fight - he is a better pilot. Who are you to stand up and declare out of hand that that is wrong, that that is somehow invalid? Despite practice and zeal, some of us simply can`t elevate our performance to that of real combat pilots... the fighters in question, as well as options such as map icons, HUD, no cockpit etc. are simply mechanisms by which mere mortals can hope to keep up with those more aeronautically blessed. Nothing wrong with that, as long as if we *do* improve, we scale back our advantageous compensations.

Perhaps what irks me most is that you and a few others take your opinions to the point of saying these aircraft were wastes of time for the developers and should not have been included at all. Again to each his own, salute free speech, etc. but bite your tongues. Were it not for the opportunity to fly those aircraft, I would never have purchased the flight sim. I wanted most of all to experience the juxtaposition of the 262 to props, to see why this curious aircraft development was such a big deal. Thanks to Oleg and crew I have.

Anyway...

SeaFireLIV
02-04-2005, 04:54 PM
AWW, no! I happily managed to forget that the 109Z actually existed in IL2/FB and now you guys have bought its memories back to me. That abomination should stay in this sim where it stayed in reality - a bombed out hanger.

Hate the dumb plane, even more than the GO229 which at least got airborne.

LEXX_Luthor
02-04-2005, 05:07 PM
Daiich:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Due to game engine limitations (or so Ive been told) the fact that the Z cockpit is offset does not apply, and view from cockpit appears that IT is on the centerline, and will roll about this axis, instead of what SHOULD be, a roll around the axis of the true centerline of the plane, about 6 feet in from the cockpit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Roll should appear about the "point at infinity," at which distance 6 feet is Zero feet. When you roll you look at some object in the distance many kilometers away, and the roll looks like its about the centerline.


From what I heard, 109Z was an experiment in FM modding, and was a very simple Mod from external and cockpit of existing models. Its a very rare look at a flight sim Developer making an experiment. Who knows, 109Z may provide some minor input into FM modding for BoB. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif


ubiBoard:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>they all fly 109Z online... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, the WORST problem Bf~109Z has is Dogfighter Internet Psycho Behavior, not Messer's Bf~109Z or his real life (not gamer) 109 engineers.

Daiichidoku
02-04-2005, 05:22 PM
hi Lexxx....

but what about when a Z has a tgt very close up, like about 100 or 200 meters?

In that case, shouldnt the offset pit make QUITE a difference, especially when working a firing solution in the roll?


I know its a game limitation, but no other type in the game is subject to this..then again, every other type in the game has a history of at least one flight



Warlock, dont get so defensive, the thread author asked for ppl opinions about that travesty of a mockery of a sham, the Z, and thats what hes getting, both good and bad comments, leave it at that

you like it for whatever reason, others despise the POS that belongs in crimson skies for whatever reason



SpitfireSeafire, as has been said, fly what you want, and enjoy it, but in the case of the 109Z, dont be surprised by jeers of derision when you do, many ppl feel strongly about a type that is esentially a fantasy in a game that vaunts accuracy

I myself tend to stay away from types like the Z, or for that matter, the Ki84 1C (the 1C model specifically, the 1A and 1B are cool, IMO) that take very little effort to get kills in....I prefer to earn a kill, to have at least a minimal sense of challenge...superflying viceless wave-motion guns like the Z do NOTHING for me in that regard...booorrrrring!

Daiichidoku
02-04-2005, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yes, the WORST problem Bf~109Z has is Dogfighter Internet Psycho Behavior, not Messer's Bf~109Z or his real life (not gamer) 109 engineers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Been awhile, but yea, I agree with you there, Lexxx


Why is it that some types in particular seem to bring out the worst behavior in ppl online?

IMO, seems when ppl jump into any one of the "noob" types, they become, well, noobs

Ki84 (1Cs)
La7 (3xB20)
Yak3 (P)
etc

Now, of course, ppl fly like lugans in any type, I know...and many ppl fly intelligently in the above "noob" types as well

But gosh, seems more often than not the guys who crash into you trying to get the enemy you've been on the tail of for many, many minutes, or shoot over your shoulder, or go for the lame ducks youve already wounded and ignore the great setup on the enemy on your 6 are flying those above types (especially the Ki84 (1C)

Dont freak out now, ppl, as I have said, alll sorts of ppl fly all sorts of types, I know....but d a m n if the freq of arseholishness in a Nakajima or Lavochkin product doesnt go through the roof

Maybe its a game bug, that when in these types ppl cant see friendly icons or padlock friendlies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

VF-29_Sandman
02-04-2005, 11:19 PM
from what i have seen on the 109-z: engines are not counter-rotating, yet can break hard in either direction with no stalls no matter how hard u pull. this should happen to the 38 as this would be the no-torque area. the non counter-rotating props should make the 109-z more prone to a snap stall in the opposite direction of the engine torque, but that doesnt happen.

acceleration is lightning fast. it gains speed in a heartbeat. is what the 38 was capable of, yet is throttled back.

climb rate: climbs like a rocket to the ozone. would be impossible to catch unless u were already sittin up there to begin with.

dive rate: ummmm, explain how that boom-tail is able to handle speeds of 800kmh without any flutter while the 38 will try to tuck under if pushed past 500. no noticeable tail oscillations in high speed dives. not what would happen if u tryed to dive supersonic in a propeller driven a.c.

guns: wtf....no nose shake with 4x30mm cannon? ummmm, that heavy firepower would shake the pilot to death.

LEXX_Luthor
02-05-2005, 12:26 AM
Imagine the Leg Stamina needed by a 109Z pilot if the real thing was not counter rot.

Daiich:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but what about when a Z has a tgt very close up, like about 100 or 200 meters?

In that case, shouldnt the offset pit make QUITE a difference, especially when working a firing solution in the roll? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
100-200 m is about 330-660 feet. At 100m, using the linear tangent approximation, 6/330 is 1/55 radian which is close to 1/57 radian which is 1 degree angle...the apparent diameter of 2 full moons side by side.

Fehler
02-05-2005, 02:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Imagine the Leg Stamina needed by a 109Z pilot if the real thing was not counter rot.

Daiich:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but what about when a Z has a tgt very close up, like about 100 or 200 meters?

In that case, shouldnt the offset pit make QUITE a difference, especially when working a firing solution in the roll? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
100-200 m is about 330-660 feet. At 100m, using the linear tangent approximation, 6/330 is 1/55 radian which is close to 1/57 radian which is 1 degree angle...the apparent diameter of 2 full moons side by side. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, you are seriously scaring me!

Fehler
02-05-2005, 02:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
guns: wtf....no nose shake with 4x30mm cannon? ummmm, that heavy firepower would shake the pilot to death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MK108 had virtually no recoil. The driving/recoil springs were so strong that the gun had no need for locking lugs. Caliber does not equate to recoil if the gun is properly buffered. I have shot small .25 cal pistols that kicked harder than an M-60 Machine gun, for example...

As far as the Z... It's a novelty. If you fly on a server that has it, then why not fly it? I believe Oleg stated that he modelled the FM from theory, and he felt the planes theory was sound. It is a toy, a gift given to us like a few other planes in the game. They make for interesting "What if" scenarios if you are biulding coops, and if you are running those types of DF servers.

I always find it funny that some of the people that feel the plane is an abomination because of historical accuracy, will jump into a no-cockpit server and deflection shoot where there should be an engine, a cowling, or some other part there that would not allow this. How historic is that? ROFL!

LEXX_Luthor
02-05-2005, 02:53 AM
Well said Fehler. One would never guess by the Attention given to it, but 109Z is only 1 flight sim experiment out of maybe 100 "real" Flyable planes, although with only one or two short feasability flights, the "daiich~esque" Goth229 tip~toes suspiciously close to 109Z. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So that's 2/100 not bad at all especially that 109Z was quickly modded from existing cockpit and probably also external models. Anyway, if such experiments work (and if that was the intention lol contra props dunno), modding FM from theory could be a additional method for future of flight sim development for consistency given vastly different flight test data for different planes.

Badsight.
02-05-2005, 03:54 AM
Fehler & LEXX . . . . thats all well & good , & dont get me wrong , i to am glad for one-offs like these to be available . . .

but you got to understand the frustration of having this , which is a theoretical modelled plane fly as well as it does & doing things that the P-38 should show , when the P-38 , which is a much more well-knowen entity has problems & traits that it shouldnt & that the Bf-Z should

its part of why it has a really suspect question mark over it , we hear the P-38 is limited by the game engine , but we also have this non-contra rotating prop Bf-Z feeling just like what you read of the P-38 in manouvers

Fehler
02-05-2005, 04:41 AM
Badsight: I totally understand your point, believe me. The thing I find so funny is that people are even giving this plane any consideration at all.

I will go out on a limb and say this; any server that allows this plane is truly an air-quake, arcade server at best. Unless, of course, it is a fantasy plane server, then it could be somewhat fun.

All the whine-posts about this plane in the past give more credit to this plane than it is worth. Really, who fliys it? When I first installed AEP, I took one up against 6 B-17's for a "Blast em up" fun time in QMB. But, other than that I never gave the plane much of a consideration. I think the only time I ever saw one online was on one of those goofball servers and I shot down three of them in less than 10 minutes, in a Dora, no less!

So, really who cares? Is the sim better off without it? I dont think so. Because if it brings enjoyment to whomever flys it, then it is fulfilling the reason it was put in the game.

It's not historical, but neither is the server that allows it's use, so what's the difference?

I just dont understand why everyone wastes their time complaining about it, especially when there are a great many more things to complain/worry about.

If you fly it, have fun. If you dont, dont bother with it. If it is on a server you like to fly in, but you dont like the plane, find another server. It's really that simple.

Oh, I know the other complaint about it... Look at all the time wasted on it when they could have made a Typhoon, or a Tempest, or a, or a, or a, blah blah blah... Well, that's sort of water under the bridge, isnt it? I am sure we all have spent time on useless things in our lives that seemed important while we were doing them, but in retrospect were really a waste of time. Flying a pixel WWII flight sim would seem like a waste of time to many (My wife included). But hey, I still fly, dont I, and I cant have back all the hours I spent playing can I?

Again Ill say it; if you have fun flying it, and can find a server to fly it on, then go have fun if that's your bag.

The best thing about this game is that it can be molded to fit just about anyone's taste. That's what makes the sim so much fun!

SeaFireLIV
02-05-2005, 05:05 AM
I just wish it would show up in a one-off offline Campaign so I could have the pleasure of shooting it down again(Maybe a `what-if` late `45 scenario). I do remember that online the 109Z never tended to last long and I remember shooting one down easily to my glee.

Hristo_
02-05-2005, 05:38 AM
Any plane in a sim is welcome, be it a Bi-1, Go 229, Bf 109Z or an F-15.

Those who try to limit the planeset for whatever reason are trying to limit our enjoyment of the sim.

If you don't like the plane, don't fly it.
If you don't like others flying it, choose another server.