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View Full Version : Ju-88's DM and Gunners overmodeled?



Gibbage1
02-13-2006, 05:07 AM
OK. After flying War Clouds for a few hours today, I can safly say that the Ju-88 is a BUGGER to take down!!!!! I mean a TOTAL MOTHER OF A BUGGER!!!! I was on comms with a bunch, and we had our ground targets defended rather well. Someone would call "Ju!" and all heck would brake loose. I would see a Hawker make a run, scoring multiple 20MM hits, peel off smoking because the gunners just took a good wack at him. Then a Mossy would dive down, again score multiple hits with 20MM, and again peel off trailing smoke. Another Hawker made a run, multiple hits, and this time its smoking. So now its my turn in a P-38. I make my pass, the gunners are LIGHTING ME UP like crazy from 500+ meters, I put 8-10 20MM rounds into the left wing, and it pops off! Im thinking "Yay!" but as the Ju-88 spirals down faster then a FW on crack, hits gunners are SHOOTING AND HITTING ME with EVERY ROTATION!!!

This was not a 1 time deal here. It would routeanly take 3-4 aircraft to take down 1 Ju, and that Ju would typically get a few attackers before it went down. I even took a Hawlker and sun 15+ 20MM's into it with little damage! A 190 drove me off, and that was AFTER 2 other Hawkers got a peace of it. The Ju's are totally crazy! I only WISH the B-17 was that damage resistant.

Anyone else having problems shooting those things down with anything short of a Mk-108? Everyone on WC comms that night was whining a blue streak about those things, and i must agree with them. They are insane!

Capt.LoneRanger
02-13-2006, 05:13 AM
That sounds like really hard evidence.

Expected a bit more from someone like you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

potver
02-13-2006, 05:15 AM
Not yet tried but I dislike the ship-gunlike barrels of it.
Too thick at a nearby distance.
But I do like the pit.

Meshsmoother
02-13-2006, 05:20 AM
It just took two passes of a tempest, and one pass of a p38 to dewing my Ju-88 in the Anapa map in WC yesterday... not to mention I lost controls on the 2nd Tempest pass, and died while crashing into the sea, no time for bailing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif . On the other hand I placed 110 hits on it while on P51D-5NT by myself, and so did the other 4 guys that were there with me and it just got an engine on fire, and eventually crash landed later. Dunno what to think, or I'm very unlucky to both ends, or it has it's "sweet spots" to be shot down, and i suspect those are it's wings.

=S=

T.

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 05:26 AM
Fly against B-25 sometimes...

HERE "Spits vs 109s" aircrafts stats (http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/aircraftmatchups.php)

Look at the stats about B-25 and Ju88.

Last night on this server me and another 5 Ju88 were in formation with escort: I think none of us got the target, and more than 2 were PK.

Bye

msalama
02-13-2006, 05:39 AM
Ju-88? Use cannons. Just a couple of shots from the VYa / ShVAK / Hispano / whatever to its wing tank and the bugger is in flames. Be sure.

The Heinkel, OTOH & BTW, is much sturdier...

JG52Karaya-X
02-13-2006, 05:40 AM
Uhm,... try hitting it next time?

Here's a track that I just recorded - P38J vs 2xJu88 (at average skill)

http://rapidshare.de/files/13171532/P38_vs_OMG-this-is-so-uber-Ju88.trk.html

The first Ju88 lights on fire after a good solid burst and is missing the whole right engine! The second Ju88 is cut into half with another good burst - both attacks were carried out not from close in but actually at long to medium ranges!

And pls, its not only the German gunners who have snipers skill... fly against Pe2, Pe8s, B25 and A20 for a change and try to be objective

CUJO_1970
02-13-2006, 05:44 AM
The Ju-88 is no more overmodelled than the rediculous B-25 joke that is in this sim.

I've shot down a silly amount of bombers online.
As a FW190 pilot I am programmed to destroy bombers.

I've been shooting down Ju-88s by myself with the Fw190A-5 online on the 334th noob server. I shot probably 5-6 down yesterday without any other freindly a/c around, a couple on the first pass.

There wasn't a single Ju-88 that I encountered that made it home.

Now let's go start a thread about the B-25 doing a Split-S and diving at 650-700 kph with a wing on fire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Stafroty
02-13-2006, 05:49 AM
learn to shoot gibbage, FEEL THE PAIN!

CUJO_1970
02-13-2006, 05:50 AM
And I can confirm that if you had guys in a Hawker Tempest with 4 20mm Hispanos that were failing to take the Ju-88 down and themselves getting shot down, you can tell them from me that they don't know much about taking heavies down in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CUJO_1970
02-13-2006, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I only WISH the B-17 was that damage resistant.




Your wish is granted.

JG52Karaya-X
02-13-2006, 05:54 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

triggerhappyfin
02-13-2006, 05:56 AM
Ju-88's DM and Gunners overmodeled?
Gee! where do you guys dig up all these hard to shoot down aircraft?
Everytime I pick one of those, I pick the soft bellied ones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

CD_kp84yb
02-13-2006, 05:56 AM
and they all came from YESSSS 6 o clock position and hanging there like cardboards on a shooting range.

Hmmm

HART_dreyer
02-13-2006, 06:08 AM
If you don't know how to properly attack bombers you deserve to die you amateurs!

No skill looser fighter pilots who attack a bomber from dead 6 deserve instant death.

Respect to online bomber pilots for putting up with all the roaming morons around, I salute you!

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-13-2006, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:

I've been shooting down Ju-88s by myself with the Fw190A-5 online on the 334th noob server.

That's cannibalism innit? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


Now let's go start a thread about the B-25 doing a Split-S and diving at 650-700 kph with a wing on fire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I hear ya brother http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Pig_Mac
02-13-2006, 06:20 AM
About the stats for B25 killing fighters. A lot of fighters are doing a really bad approach to bombers.

They are coming in straight on six, and expect to survive the reargunner then slowly climbing up expecting to survive the turrets too, both manned by the human pilot. I never had as many fighter kills in one flight as when flying B25's. And that isn't due to damagemodel.
Lots of times I've been rattling in for landing with only one working blacksmoking engine, and almost no control of the plane, praying to a virtual god. More times I don't make it home at all.

It doesn't prove the B25 to be 'ubermodelled'. Good pilots turn me into a ball of fire before I know they are close, bad pilots hardly come close enough to fire before their engine is out, and/or their forehead is ventilated.

While Manually manning the gunpositions, one well aimed shot (or a lucky one) is all it takes to kill gunner=me=pilot=plane.

I'm still setting up Bomber controls in my new install so I can't comment on how survival is in the JU88, just the B25.

major_setback
02-13-2006, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. After flying War Clouds for a few hours today, I can safly say that the Ju-88 is a BUGGER to take down!!!!! I mean a TOTAL MOTHER OF A BUGGER!!!! I was on comms with a bunch, and we had our ground targets defended rather well. Someone would call "Ju!" and all heck would brake loose. I would see a Hawker make a run, scoring multiple 20MM hits, peel off smoking because the gunners just took a good wack at him. Then a Mossy would dive down, again score multiple hits with 20MM, and again peel off trailing smoke. Another Hawker made a run, multiple hits, and this time its smoking. So now its my turn in a P-38. I make my pass, the gunners are LIGHTING ME UP like crazy from 500+ meters, I put 8-10 20MM rounds into the left wing, and it pops off! Im thinking "Yay!" but as the Ju-88 spirals down faster then a FW on crack, hits gunners are SHOOTING AND HITTING ME with EVERY ROTATION!!!

This was not a 1 time deal here. It would routeanly take 3-4 aircraft to take down 1 Ju, and that Ju would typically get a few attackers before it went down. I even took a Hawlker and sun 15+ 20MM's into it with little damage! A 190 drove me off, and that was AFTER 2 other Hawkers got a peace of it. The Ju's are totally crazy! I only WISH the B-17 was that damage resistant.

Anyone else having problems shooting those things down with anything short of a Mk-108? Everyone on WC comms that night was whining a blue streak about those things, and i must agree with them. They are insane!

I had the same experience online (this is just a simple observation from a couple of brief encounters). At first look they seem tougher than the Heinkels, (with ace gunners last night anyway).

Feathered_IV
02-13-2006, 06:21 AM
I just tried heading a bunch of AI 88's in FMB. The poor things couldn't get up above 50m with 2 SC500 bombs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Viikate_
02-13-2006, 06:31 AM
http://humdi.net/evo/images/evo5.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
02-13-2006, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I just tried heading a bunch of AI 88's in FMB. The poor things couldn't get up above 50m with 2 SC500 bombs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

did you tried giving these planes 75% fuel ?
the Ju88 was very tricky with overload !
and we dont know how much fuel oleg gave the Ju88 in game !

here is a look in the reality !
http://www.ju88.equitatura.de/rustsatze.htm
if he gave it the full possible 3580litres, the weihgt of 1 tons of bombs can be to much !

Hawgdog
02-13-2006, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. After flying War Clouds for a few hours today, I can safly say that the Ju-88 is a BUGGER to take down!!!!! They are insane!

I must have gotten a different Junker in my patch.
The planes ai gunners are cowards, drunken cowards who would rather save ammo than attempt to shoot at planes further off than .5 or closer than .6

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. After flying War Clouds for a few hours today, I can safly say that the Ju-88 is a BUGGER to take down!!!!! They are insane!

I must have gotten a different Junker in my patch.
The planes ai gunners are cowards, drunken cowards who would rather save ammo than attempt to shoot at planes further off than .5 or closer than .6 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True.

And the Ju88 has lighter machinegun than the B-25... Flying Bf109, passing also NEAR the 6 of the B-25 your engine will be smoking (more than once I've tried to headon with the bomber and were smoking after the pass, or also with injured pilot).

The gunner's accurary is a issue of the game, I don't care about this... but don't tell the Ju88 is stronger than the B-25 pls...

JG7_Rall
02-13-2006, 08:30 AM
Hmm...although my evidence isn't as hard/conclusive as gibbages... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

The last three times I've flown the Ju88 on WC (which is a blast!), whenever I have gotten hit, it seems like it's been only a few cannon shells from a tempest or a spit and my plane has lost its tail or a wing and is spiraling down towards the ground. It seems very easy to take down as long as you avoid the gunners.

PBNA-Boosher
02-13-2006, 08:35 AM
Gib, I know we go way back in the modeling front, but you've got to get used to shooting. The Ju-88 has weak wing roots and outer wings. That's your target. It's either that or the greenhouse canopy.

You don't need to rip a plane apart to get a kill.

georgeo76
02-13-2006, 09:19 AM
The only problem I've had when making runs on the Ju w/ the Mossie is avoiding the debris.

WWSensei
02-13-2006, 09:28 AM
I fly WC a lot. Almost exclusively in the 110 or the 87D5 but I tried the Ju88. After getting killed in the first 3 sorties to quick bursts I was frustrated but kept going. She climbs like a wallowing pig, but can dive bomb.

Oh yeah, killed one Spit.

Just like I do in the 100 and 87...from idiotic Spit and Mustang drivers who park 100 meters behind me and 10 feet over my tail, perfect killing zone.

The smart ones who dive under and come up kill me in those aircraft but get tagged in those aircraft with belly gunners.

The real smart ones make head on or high side passes where I can never get a shot and drop my bomber in short order. Having flown a LOT of hours in WC in a bomber I can honestly say I can count the number of real smart fighter drivers on one hand. Maybe 1% of the total number of fliers on the server--for both sides.

I see Axis pilots complain and moan about the B-25 but they do the same thing, crawl slowly up its 6 letting it's gunners chew them up.

It's easier to shoot down fighters from a gunner position than it is in a fighter. Mainly because most of the fighter jocks seem to drop about 100 IQ points when they see two engines and just sit there and let you shoot them.

Vipez-
02-13-2006, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Viikate_:
http://humdi.net/evo/images/evo5.jpg

http://www.kerrolisaa.com/kuvat/masa_ei_osaa.jpg

=)

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 09:45 AM
DMs of ALL bombers are overmodelled A LOT. The same goes to AI gunners accuracy.
ALL bombers of ALL nations.

Now: Mosquito surely fell off bomber category in devs. minds...

Jumoschwanz
02-13-2006, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Manuel29:
Fly against B-25 sometimes...

HERE "Spits vs 109s" aircrafts stats (http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/aircraftmatchups.php)

Look at the stats about B-25 and Ju88.

Last night on this server me and another 5 Ju88 were in formation with escort: I think none of us got the target, and more than 2 were PK.

Bye

Yes, look at the stats on Spits_vs_109s. You can see that most of the kills the B-25 scored are against 1941 opposition, this is because Spits_vs_109 admins make you fly 1941 fighters against the 1944 B-25 on many maps. What fun for them to cruise along in a 1944 plane with eleven fifty calibre machine guns while slow, 1941 fighters with no firepower make passes at them. Wheeeeeeeee!

YOu can also fly against other 1944 allied aircraft on Spits_vs_109s in older axis planes, because the admin of the server has ideas like this in his head:


Flight performance and guns on a Tempest is most similar to a 190 A-4.

It can't out-turn a single 109 model and all 109s after the G-6 is much faster than the Tempest.

190s? Well it can out-turn all 190s however it's also slower than all of the 190s.

Thanks


! Idiocy like this is why I am done with Spits_vs_109s, yes, I will NEVER fly there again.



Jumoschwanz

CD_kp84yb
02-13-2006, 09:58 AM
The same goes to AI gunners accuracy

Hmmmm mine are totaly ******s, lol fighter at 6 o clock!!!!! they shoot................ 12 o clock, maybe they just warmin the guns incase the fighter overshoots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
I dont rely on my drunken blind AI gunners and will do the shooting myself, always funny to read the mesagebar afterwards "overmoddeld gunners , snipers blahblahblah" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Ju88 has 1 gun in front, so you come not in at 12 o clock but out of range of that gun 10 or 2 o clock.
B17 depends of wich type , chin and upper turret??? 12 o clock but NOT above or under the cockpit, line up with the nose.. fire and pull up to left or right or down left or right , dont keep turning

Not a good idea is going 12 with A20 or B25 hahaha.

never had problems shooting bombers, not even in version 1.0 (only the db3 gave me a pk once in awhile)

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 10:22 AM
Idiocy like this is why I am done with Spits_vs_109s, yes, I will NEVER fly there again.

Yes, I'm agree with you... but I think it's the best dogfight simil-coop server on all HL.

PS: There're the IL-2 too and the P38L against '41/'42 planes... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Kwiatos
02-13-2006, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
DMs of ALL bombers are overmodelled A LOT. The same goes to AI gunners accuracy.
ALL bombers of ALL nations.

Now: Mosquito surely fell off bomber category in devs. minds...

Exacly most bombers are overmoddel in DM and all have gunner snipers. Probably bombers even flyable have old DM like Lagg3. I shoted many times to Ju88 from Tempest and didnt see many visible holes in wings etc. Ju 88 need very long burst to engines to burn it - its look like it have engine armour or so.

BfHeFwMe
02-13-2006, 11:24 AM
Ju-88 was stronger than a 111, it started life as an assault bomber, not an airliner like 111's.

Agree, there is a big problem with Ju-88, it gets PK's far to easy from direct six, even with small arms. Take a look at the armored seat, than the rear gunners exposed position. Now tell me how he and the front gunner can survive a hail of bullets but the pilot can't. Bullets actually must go through the rear gunner to get to the pilot, yet he never gets a scratch.

Stafroty
02-13-2006, 11:44 AM
JU88 was used as divebomber, it had to survive much bigger stress with its airframe. :P

yea, im right, i back up all this with my beliefs and will fight even when im wrong, because when i know that im wrong, i cannot admit that to others, or i think i lose my face.

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Manuel29:
Fly against B-25 sometimes...

What about them?

I find them rather flimsy and easy to destroy.

Same goes for the Ju88 or the He111 just in case you start the cry about the fact I have a Spitfire in my sig so that that makes me a red whiner.

MercilessFatBoy
02-13-2006, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
http://humdi.net/evo/images/evo5.jpg

http://www.kerrolisaa.com/kuvat/masa_ei_osaa.jpg

=) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

can any one explain the meaning of pics... i feel a little lost

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 12:46 PM
Vipes is crying because he just sank his boat?

zugfuhrer
02-13-2006, 12:46 PM
Depends on what you are comparing it with. I have flown the JU-88 at two times, and got shoot down by first a P-51, then a tempest at their first run.

I have flown agaist He-111 in spits and P-47 and against B-25 in Me-109 and FW-190 and can tell everyone that shooting down a HE is like shooting rats in a barell, and the B-25 kills/cripples two to three fighters for every time they are shoot down.
So Gibbage choose a 109 for the blue side and attack a B-25 and tell me how you regard the comparison between a JU-88 and B-25.
I am looking forward to this.

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
the B-25 kills/cripples two to three fighters for every time they are shoot down.
So Gibbage choose a 109 for the blue side and attack a B-25 and tell me how you regard the comparison between a JU-88 and B-25.
I am looking forward to this.

I suggest they learn how to attack from an angle that the B25 gunners have a harder time hitting.
I have attacked them several times and in my last ingagement I shot down 3 B25's and only got hit once.
The bombers in this game are only really dangerous when you sit on their tails.

As for the He111 and the Ju88, their poor design in defensive capability is to blame for their severe weakness.
The B25 is somewhat more dangerous because it has better defensive weapons and rotating turrets, something the He111 and the Ju88 both lack.

zugfuhrer
02-13-2006, 01:06 PM
Its is not me attacking, its what my trackfiles shows and what I describe is the average outcome.

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Nubarus:

What about them?

I find them rather flimsy and easy to destroy.

Same goes for the Ju88 or the He111 just in case you start the cry about the fact I have a Spitfire in my sig so that that makes me a red whiner.

I don't care about the signatures, if they're red or blue...

Do I complain of B-25??? I don't think... please overread my posts...

Are the Ju88 MGs lighter than the B-25's ones? Yes.

Do I whine of gunners' accuracy? Yes. Gunners of ALL bombers (red and blue).

The starter of the thread stated "JU88 IS A BUGGER" and my answer is to look at HIS bomber...

fighter_966
02-13-2006, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by MercilessFatBoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vipez-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
http://humdi.net/evo/images/evo5.jpg

http://www.kerrolisaa.com/kuvat/masa_ei_osaa.jpg

=) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

can any one explain the meaning of pics... i feel a little lost </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Text says : you just CANT

FatBoyHK
02-13-2006, 02:13 PM
I found the opposite.... JU88 is quite easy to bring down, especiallyt compare with He111. Yesterday on WC I shot 2 down and damaged 2 badly with my Mustang's 50cals, using typcial high-speed attack from high six.

or may be it is because of the desynced 50cals?

AnaK774
02-13-2006, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
If you don't know how to properly attack bombers you deserve to die you amateurs!

No skill looser fighter pilots who attack a bomber from dead 6 deserve instant death.

Respect to online bomber pilots for putting up with all the roaming morons around, I salute you!

Well, put up a fast little MOVIE for training how to attack bombers and come home telling about it

Due shortage of webspace"hint" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif using rapidshare

http://rapidshare.de/files/13209204/How_to_attack_bombers.wmv.html

enjoy

Capt.LoneRanger
02-13-2006, 02:16 PM
OMG the one-hit-180deg-roll-bug is back!

Just tested the Ju88 online and got a single cal50 in the wing. My crate instantly rolled 180deg. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Any date for 4.04? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

hobnail
02-13-2006, 02:23 PM
I flew Ju88 on WC three times yesterday for three quick PK deaths, I did beat off a Tempest and a Mossie before the pilot was killed but that was hardly surprising as they parked themselves 200m dead six.

IV_JG51_Prien
02-13-2006, 02:34 PM
I have absoultely no problem whatsoever with getting shot down in the JU88. None. In fact I get so irritated by almost always getting Pilot Killed every time someone squeezes the trigger behind me.

One thing to think about in regards to bomber gunners in Online servers being snipers..... Many of us bomber jocks do our own gunnery.

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
I have absoultely no problem whatsoever with getting shot down in the JU88. None. In fact I get so irritated by almost always getting Pilot Killed every time someone squeezes the trigger behind me.

One thing to think about in regards to bomber gunners in Online servers being snipers..... Many of us bomber jocks do our own gunnery.

Yes, that is when there are long burst... been damaged after one single burst by AI is annoying.

Capt.LoneRanger
02-13-2006, 03:09 PM
Actually AI tends to fire long bursts. When I am gunner, I use very short bursts only.

faustnik
02-13-2006, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
I found the opposite.... JU88 is quite easy to bring down, especiallyt compare with He111. Yesterday on WC I shot 2 down and damaged 2 badly with my Mustang's 50cals, using typcial high-speed attack from high six.

or may be it is because of the desynced 50cals?

You are clearly a Luftwaffle spy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Actually AI tends to fire long bursts. When I am gunner, I use very short bursts only.

Then mine it's a different game... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Manuel29:
The starter of the thread stated "JU88 IS A BUGGER" and my answer is to look at HIS bomber...

So that means exactly what?

Gibbage complained about the Ju88 being too sturdy and your answer was that he should look at the B25.

So with the same logic it seems you think the B25 is too sturdy as well.

As for their accuracy, yes they are too accurate but it can be overcome with skill, and pretty easy too.
Especially regarding the LW bombers since their guns have a lot of dead angles.
The only position on the B25 that is ever able to fire at me is the ball turret on top but if you attack from an odd angle like from above and the side it hardly ever scores a hit.

p1ngu666
02-13-2006, 03:24 PM
well first off i suggest everyone flies ju88 just too see how poor the fields of fire are on the ju88. especialy the aimable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

its pretty limited. AI gunners on human planes are simplier DIRE, unless that changed it last patch. ai planes are another matter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

the b25 has one of the best turret defense systems of the war. the ju88 is painfully bad in comparison. in BOB time they field modded ju88s with extra mg guns, poor chap in the back had 5, drum fed mg guns to look after http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

the guns on the ju88 are pretty weak.

its fairly strong tho, much much stronger than our mossie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Nubarus:
So that means exactly what?

Gibbage complained about the Ju88 being too sturdy and your answer was that he should look at the B25.

So with the same logic it seems you think the B25 is too sturdy as well.

As for their accuracy, yes they are too accurate but it can be overcome with skill, and pretty easy too.
Especially regarding the LW bombers since their guns have a lot of dead angles.
The only position on the B25 that is ever able to fire at me is the ball turret on top but if you attack from an odd angle like from above and the side it hardly ever scores a hit.

I say that Ju88's and B25's DM aren't so different. This is the point.

BTW I agree with you about the pilot skill, but the super-gunners are an issue that must be fixed...

Do we want a sim or not?

We can't always work "around" the problems, can we?

Bye

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Manuel29:
BTW I agree with you about the pilot skill, but the super-gunners are an issue that must be fixed...

Do we want a sim or not?

We can't always work "around" the problems, can we?

Bye

I guess you missed the whole multiple patches and threads regarding the bomber gunners.

Bottom line is, this is how they are now after multiple tweaks due to multiple threads constantly asking to make em either better or worse.
My guess is that he finally got fed up with that is left it at that.

Vrabac
02-13-2006, 03:55 PM
If you can't shoot down a Ju88...

Quote from game's manual:

"Gunnery Practice Suggestions:

-Set up flights of friendly bombers in the Quick Mission Builder.
-The larger the target, the better. The Pe-8 from the Soviet side is a great target, and the He-111 or Ju-52 make great German targets.
-Slow the game down with the [ key when you're ready to fire. This will help you learn to aim and maneuver
-Once you begin to hit your targets easily, set up same large targets as Hostile. Try shooting them down as they take defensive action and fire back at you."

After that follows something about shooting fighters, but I guess we haven't got that far yet.

Hope it helps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


I say that Ju88's and B25's DM aren't so different. This is the point.

Some say Earth is hollow and dwarves live in it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

P.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_earth

I've even got a link you see. You don't have a link on Wikipedia that says DM of Ju88 and B25 in Il2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles 4.03m is the same, do you?. So I guess my case is stronger. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Manuel29
02-13-2006, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Vrabac:
I've even got a link you see. You don't have a link on Wikipedia that says DM of Ju88 and B25 in Il2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles 4.03m is the same, do you?. So I guess my case is stronger. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Are you kidding or what? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

DM of Ju88 and B-25 is the same... who said? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Wait, I quote again: "I say that Ju88's and B25's DM aren't so different."

Where is the link on Wikipedia that says Ju88 is a bugger an B-25 not??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Bye

@Nubarus
Sure, I miss all these threads: what do they say? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

mortoma
02-13-2006, 05:27 PM
The AI gunners are not all that good. When I am a defensive gunner either online against human piloted planes or offline against AI, I typically do better than the AI do. If you think AI gunners are over-modelled, you are kidding yourself and you for sure don't want to attack a bomber that I'm a gunner in. You will die for sure, be sure!!!
People have been complaining about the AI gunner accuracy since day one of the IL2 demo. What a bunch of hogwash!! I feel the AAA/Flak is over-modelled, but certainly not the AI gunners, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Brain32
02-13-2006, 06:30 PM
The point is, AI planes have uber AI gunners, human planes have blind idiots...

icrash
02-13-2006, 09:33 PM
Maybe it's just a matter of where ya hit the Ju88. Shredded the tail off one, no clue what I actually hit. The other took it right between the wings for the fireball. I recorded the track & played it back with the F2 view, man my shooting skills are bad looking @ where the rounds actually went http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/j881.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/j884.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/j883.jpg

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
The point is, AI planes have uber AI gunners, human planes have blind idiots...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

nakamura_kenji
02-14-2006, 04:07 AM
low 7/5 clock attack seem safe out of movement range belly gun fire but no hit no ^_^

ju-88 much easy pk with mg, set fire fuel tank/engine

b25 much hard compare because turret design large engagement movenet turret no safe direct attack except 12 clock but b-25 flyable version forward fire gun >_< main eason why happy get j2m3 armour yaya ^_^

Sturm_Williger
02-14-2006, 04:29 AM
Yes, the AI gunners on human piloted planes ARE indeed idiots.

AI gunners on AI piloted planes are not only crack shots, but they can shoot through their own fuselage ( try a low 6 attack on a Ju87 for eg. )

Also, they have the amazing ability to track and hit you whilst their aircraft performs insane evasive manoeuvers.

Their actual accuracy comes a distinct third after those two issues. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

KG26_Alpha
02-14-2006, 05:32 AM
Errrmmm Ahemmm

Did some one say FIRE FIRE FIRE

And its got the worst gunner stations in game and I mean absolutely useless.

Now B25 I can fight off droves of attacking fighters and make it home like a sieve with one engine.

JU88 He111 Bf110 Stukas got some serious reworking on DM over last few patches and none of it any good for the pilot and crew.

Am I biased? of course.
Why
Because I make it home in a B25 8/10 when attacked by enemy.

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
And its got the worst gunner stations in game and I mean absolutely useless.

Like the bottom MG??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bye

Feathered_IV
02-14-2006, 05:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I just tried heading a bunch of AI 88's in FMB. The poor things couldn't get up above 50m with 2 SC500 bombs


did you tried giving these planes 75% fuel ?
the Ju88 was very tricky with overload !
and we dont know how much fuel oleg gave the Ju88 in game !


I just went back and tried it again. This time I reduced fuel to 20%. I could climb no worres, but my 2, 3 and 4 could only circle about at 50m or so. No matter how much I tried to order them to form up.

Vrabac
02-14-2006, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by Manuel29:Wait, I quote again: "I say that Ju88's and B25's DM aren't so different."

LOL

Ok, they aren't the same, they just aren't so different. Stupid me, you see. Of course a plane that can take burst of 30mm hits without effect has SOMETHING in common with plane that catches on fire from just about any calibre. They both need to be hit to be damaged for start. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif So I guess you are right, they aren't THAT different. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Vrabac:
They both need to be hit to be damaged for start. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

horseback
02-14-2006, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
The AI gunners are not all that good. When I am a defensive gunner either online against human piloted planes or offline against AI, I typically do better than the AI do. If you think AI gunners are over-modelled, you are kidding yourself and you for sure don't want to attack a bomber that I'm a gunner in. You will die for sure, be sure!!!
People have been complaining about the AI gunner accuracy since day one of the IL2 demo. What a bunch of hogwash!! I feel the AAA/Flak is over-modelled, but certainly not the AI gunners, not by any stretch of the imagination. I've crawled around in literally several dozen WWII bombers and attack planes, many near-fully restored, and examined the gunners' positions in most of them, and I have yet to see a single mouse or trackball for aiming the guns. At the very least, the human gunner should have to control his guns with a heavily filtered/delayed joystick instead of the mouse.

The ease with which any in-game gunner (human OR ai) can aim is insultingly easy compared to the problems and complications the actual men who manned those positions experienced. Hitting a moving aircraft from a flexible gun position in another moving aircraft is excruciatingly hard unless the target aircraft is flying close -and I mean close-formation. A fighter flying with the slightest angle-off of dead six more than 150m away was the next best thing to bulletproof, particularly for a gunner trying to aim at it while sitting back to back with his pilot and with his own aircraft's tail in the way, or lying on his belly looking out past the tailwheel.

Disagree? Find an aircraft-sized object in an open area, and move 100m or so away. It's a lot smaller now, isn't it? Now get on a bicycle and just try to keep your finger pointed directly at the object while pedaling a parallel course to it as fast as you can manage...and that's an inert object-all the relative motion is yours, and quite predictable.

Additionally, it seems to me that the damage modelled for the gunners' hits is disproportional to the damage the same caliber weapons mounted in a fighter do.

But, hey, Mortoma, I bow to your great skills and await your defense of the kill claims of the RL bomber gunners in WWII on the basis of your experiences in this computer game...

cheers

horseback

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-14-2006, 11:36 AM
If you're struggling to kill bombers, then try what the RL guys did:

Sit out of range of defensive fire (>500m) and pump large caliber cannon shells at them - as long as they have no escort you'll be pretty dandy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

At least that's what the LW did over Germany, it worked as long as the US bombers had no escort. During the Schweinfurt raids (and probably others) they even dropped bombs into the bomber formations!

OTOH if you read pilot accounts from the BoB you'll see many of the RAF pilots pressed their attacks to within 100 yards or less - presumably though they made sure to take out the rear gunner first

p1ngu666
02-14-2006, 11:40 AM
bomber gunners tend to hit u in the face, and bomber gunnery is pretty hard actully. us onwhine gunners get far more practise than those IRL.

btw turret guns are limited in there speed of movement, but not hand held guns. which is opposite to irl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

btw ive not heard of a delay of movement with turret guns, they where considered a big improvement over hand held guns. turret gunners had joysticks and pedals

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 01:42 PM
Sit out of range of defensive fire (>500m) and pump large caliber cannon shells at them - as long as they have no escort you'll be pretty dandy Smile

True...

Like this:
http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Casino/Filme/Wochenschauen/JG4-Movie-31.mpg

The problem is that you need a high convergence: in coop mission you know your objective (destroy bombers, fly as escort, ground attack and so on), not so in a "normal" dogfight server.

In this case the Axis benefits from the nose gun...

Bye

Xiolablu3
02-14-2006, 02:00 PM
Reading the topic I would noramlly have said that this was a load of rubbish but tonight I have twice been killed by the first shot from a JU88s gunners.

Straight PK,no shattered glass, no damage just bam, first bullet and Im dead.

The only 2 times I try attacking JU88 in half an hours session and this happens.

Maybe bad luck Ithought, but after reading others have come to same onclusion?

Stigler_9_JG52
02-14-2006, 02:02 PM
While it is true that you should expect to take some damage if you make a slow, straight approach up a bomber's 6:00....

The first hit does not ALWAYS go into the engine block or your forehead, like it does in this sim.

Gunners seem incapable of ever hitting the wings or fuselage of any aircraft. Only engines and cockpits. Very first hint of damage is critical to the plane or lethal to the pilot a overwhelming majority of the time.

And they do this while the plane is breaking and even BARREL ROLLING, as I saw an A-20 do this weekend.

It's pure lunacy. Arcade. At least some of the time, a guy should be able to take the first few hits as a warning to make a better gunpass and should have ample opportunity NOT to press his poor attack angle, but to pull up and away, reassess, or just change his mind. Just some of the time. Not here. Nope, it's oiled windscreens, shot away gunsights, holes all over the perspex or a black screen. It's almost automatic.

WWSensei
02-14-2006, 02:12 PM
looking at the survival rate of at least 190 sorties over the top 19 pilots of the Ju88 on WarClouds it appears the Ju88 is shot down 76% of the time it is flown.

doesn't seem as if Red is having that much trouble bringing it down.

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Reading the topic I would noramlly have said that this was a load of rubbish but tonight I have twice been killed by the first shot from a JU88s gunners.

Straight PK,no shattered glass, no damage just bam, first bullet and Im dead.

The only 2 times I try attacking JU88 in half an hours session and this happens.

Maybe bad luck Ithought, but after reading others have come to same onclusion?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Welcome in the Club http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

jds1978
02-14-2006, 03:14 PM
While it is true that you should expect to take some damage if you make a slow, straight approach up a bomber's 6:00....

The first hit does not ALWAYS go into the engine block or your forehead, like it does in this sim.

Gunners seem incapable of ever hitting the wings or fuselage of any aircraft. Only engines and cockpits. Very first hint of damage is critical to the plane or lethal to the pilot a overwhelming majority of the time.

And they do this while the plane is breaking and even BARREL ROLLING, as I saw an A-20 do this weekend.

It's pure lunacy. Arcade. At least some of the time, a guy should be able to take the first few hits as a warning to make a better gunpass and should have ample opportunity NOT to press his poor attack angle, but to pull up and away, reassess, or just change his mind. Just some of the time. Not here. Nope, it's oiled windscreens, shot away gunsights, holes all over the perspex or a black screen. It's almost automatic.


so true...the entire firing while the bomber is rolling/jinxing is nuts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i just spent 2 hrs. testing Ju88 DM versus various Red planes....Best JU88 Killers so far...Tempest, Mosquito, Mk Vc, F4U

If you stick your nose right up it's hindquarters you may kill it with a .50 cal armed plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

F19_Olli72
02-14-2006, 03:27 PM
No tracks? Didnt happen! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jds1978
02-14-2006, 03:40 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-14-2006, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Manuel29:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sit out of range of defensive fire (>500m) and pump large caliber cannon shells at them - as long as they have no escort you'll be pretty dandy Smile

True...

Like this:
http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Casino/Filme/Wochenschauen/JG4-Movie-31.mpg

The problem is that you need a high convergence: in coop mission you know your objective (destroy bombers, fly as escort, ground attack and so on), not so in a "normal" dogfight server.

In this case the Axis benefits from the nose gun...

Bye </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...the other problem being that I'm not sure how well the KE decay of HMG fire is modelled, having been shot down by 0.50 ground fire while flying over Iwo Jima at 2500m altitude...

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 03:47 PM
I test offline only the DMs of B-25 '43, B-17'41, He-111 and Ju88 using P51D and Bf109-G10;

Shooting freely from their 6 I don't find and difference between their DMs.

And yes, I got tracks...

The only strange thing is the frequency of PK flying the Ju88...

Stigler_9_JG52
02-14-2006, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
No tracks? Didnt happen! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sure it did. It's just the fanbois who "won't believe it". You mean to tell me this has never happened to you, let alone happened to you the vast majority of the time???

(cough) BULLSH*T. (/cough)

JG52Uther
02-14-2006, 04:08 PM
Yes PK of the pilot in the JU88 does seem a bit 'off'.If you jump into a gunners position when under attack the pilot dies pretty quickly.

Xiolablu3
02-14-2006, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manuel29:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sit out of range of defensive fire (>500m) and pump large caliber cannon shells at them - as long as they have no escort you'll be pretty dandy Smile

True...

Like this:
http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Casino/Filme/Wochenschauen/JG4-Movie-31.mpg

The problem is that you need a high convergence: in coop mission you know your objective (destroy bombers, fly as escort, ground attack and so on), not so in a "normal" dogfight server.

In this case the Axis benefits from the nose gun...

Bye </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...the other problem being that I'm not sure how well the KE decay of HMG fire is modelled, having been shot down by 0.50 ground fire while flying over Iwo Jima at 2500m altitude... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The attacks in that combat film are impossible in the game.

I suspect the turret guns are just too accuarte and easy to fire with the mouse compared to real turrets.

p1ngu666
02-14-2006, 04:14 PM
50cal and 303 would be nasty in a headon with that greenhouse cockpit

Badsight.
02-14-2006, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
And I can confirm that if you had guys in a Hawker Tempest with 4 20mm Hispanos that were failing to take the Ju-88 down and themselves getting shot down, you can tell them from me that they don't know much about taking heavies down in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif +1

repetition for emphasis

jds1978
02-14-2006, 09:47 PM
OK...i shot down 2 JU88's today online...both times gunner was killed by some act of God which allowed me to spend som "Quality Time" on his 6.

If the gunners had survived there would have been no way to kill them....my advice is to attack in pairs and hope one of you acts as a cannon sponge while the other shoots the bomber....any takers? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I don't think the DM is too off though....AI gunners on the other hand http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

F19_Olli72
02-14-2006, 11:15 PM
I just think you who get shot down by any LW bombers need to be educated about the guns. Simply there is no ubergunners, when i played on GG my AI gunners typical hit rate was about 2 or 3 % before i got shot down. When you park on the 6 of Stuka, 110 or Ju-88...bear in mind that that "golden bb" many speak of is in fact not ONE bullet. MG81Z's has a ROF of 3200 rpm. Thats 53 bullets in one second, or about 26 bullets in a second or about 13 bullets in 1/4 th second. Even 13 bullets is bad for engine or pilot, ja?

So because of this whining, i feel forced to again present my "ubergunner" challange:

"***Start of the ubergunner challange***

Try to experience it from the other end. Go to a server with moderate difficulty and stats, like GG or similar. On a filled (or at least 20 - 25 ppl on) server, take a bomber like B-25 or He-111, Stuka or Ju-88 (which are the most suitable planes to test the gunners with). Look for enemies. Never man the guns, only let AI fire. And dont go near flak, cos that would screw up the statistic test value.

Play about 10 sorties, record tracks, and let us know your kill/death ratio and your AI gunners hit %. If the AI gunners are uber, there should be no problems right?"

A note: NOONE despite a lot of whining last time bothered to test it. Lets see if this crowd is different.

Stafroty
02-14-2006, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
50cal and 303 would be nasty in a headon with that greenhouse cockpit

gotta say, i would more hate being headoned fy FW with 4x 20mm and 2 x 13mm

Manuel29
02-15-2006, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
I just think you who get shot down by any LW bombers need to be educated about the guns. Simply there is no ubergunners, when i played on GG my AI gunners typical hit rate was about 2 or 3 % before i got shot down. When you park on the 6 of Stuka, 110 or Ju-88...bear in mind that that "golden bb" many speak of is in fact not ONE bullet. MG81Z's has a ROF of 3200 rpm. Thats 53 bullets in one second, or about 26 bullets in a second or about 13 bullets in 1/4 th second. Even 13 bullets is bad for engine or pilot, ja?

So because of this whining, i feel forced to again present my "ubergunner" challange:

"***Start of the ubergunner challange***

Try to experience it from the other end. Go to a server with moderate difficulty and stats, like GG or similar. On a filled (or at least 20 - 25 ppl on) server, take a bomber like B-25 or He-111, Stuka or Ju-88 (which are the most suitable planes to test the gunners with). Look for enemies. Never man the guns, only let AI fire. And dont go near flak, cos that would screw up the statistic test value.

Play about 10 sorties, record tracks, and let us know your kill/death ratio and your AI gunners hit %. If the AI gunners are uber, there should be no problems right?"

A note: NOONE despite a lot of whining last time bothered to test it. Lets see if this crowd is different.

Gunners of AI plane are uber, AI gunners of an human plane are idiots. It's told many time in this thread.

BTW I have a really bad feeling... maybe the model of the pilot-gunner system is bugged: could the sim act the gunners AS they are the pilot?

If the rear gunner dies, the pilot dies too.

CD_kp84yb
02-15-2006, 05:15 AM
F19 ollie, here is another good test, goto a server WC, GG whatever ( the result is always the same ) take a bomber and ask a guy to guve you a euro for every moron that attacks from 6 oclock or other stupid attacks.
I bet you wont have to work no more cos you are ritch at the end of the day.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

stop whinin about the gunners cos they are USELESS when a human pilots the bomber, better attack in a way that is was done by guy's who know what they were doing, cos if they screwed up they lost their lives. And even tho they attacked a b17 from twelve o clock this WASN'T a asurance that they didn'got hit or survived that pass.

They came from12 o clock in a angle to pick up speed (the more the better) opened up from 1200 meters and kept firing till they had to pull up of dive down. When they were not hit and still had ammo they go around the bombers and did the attack again, when they got hit they RETURNED to base.

cheers

Maraz_5SA
02-15-2006, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I just tried heading a bunch of AI 88's in FMB. The poor things couldn't get up above 50m with 2 SC500 bombs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

did you tried giving these planes 75% fuel ?
the Ju88 was very tricky with overload !
and we dont know how much fuel oleg gave the Ju88 in game !

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I put 25% fuel and the fuel gauge readings were both around 2 (200 l ?) so I suppose it should be 1600 litres. A confirmation by someone "in the know" would be welcome... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maraz

horseback
02-15-2006, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by CD_kp84yb:
F19 ollie, here is another good test, goto a server WC, GG whatever ( the result is always the same ) take a bomber and ask a guy to guve you a euro for every moron that attacks from 6 oclock or other stupid attacks.
I bet you wont have to work no more cos you are ritch at the end of the day.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

stop whinin about the gunners cos they are USELESS when a human pilots the bomber, better attack in a way that is was done by guy's who know what they were doing, cos if they screwed up they lost their lives. And even tho they attacked a b17 from twelve o clock this WASN'T a asurance that they didn'got hit or survived that pass.

They came from12 o clock in a angle to pick up speed (the more the better) opened up from 1200 meters and kept firing till they had to pull up of dive down. When they were not hit and still had ammo they go around the bombers and did the attack again, when they got hit they RETURNED to base.

cheers In-game Rule 1: Never attack ai bombers, alone, or in groups. The gunners are bullet proof and rarely miss at any angle. Send in your ai squadmates, who are more subject to RL statistics than the Player is.

RL Rule 1: Any single bomber or attack plane with one or more gunners is easy meat from almost any angle. The aircraft will be slower and clumsier, the gunners can't hit squat, and you can hit him long before he can hit you nine out of ten times.

RL Rule 2: Avoid attacking formations of three or more aircraft with gunners from the rear; individual marksmanship won't hit you, but the sheer volume of fire makes your chances of getting hit go WAY up.

cheers

horseback