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View Full Version : Oleg, Ki43 II has a serious flatspin problem.



ElAurens
01-27-2007, 09:52 PM
After several days of our little group of flyers (the BlitzPigs), flying Pacific planesets we are really shocked at the poor stall/flatspin behavior of the Ki 43 II. It behaves almost like the original P39 in IL2 V1.0. I cannot imagine that a lightly wing loaded aircraft like this, one known for it's excellent handling and tight turning ability would slip out from under the pilot so easily, even at higher speeds. (300+ kph).

Could you please have a look at this?

I will try to get some ntraks posted soon to illustrate.

Thanks.

Brain32
01-28-2007, 04:42 AM
Yes it's true, I was suprised too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

F19_Olli72
01-28-2007, 05:13 AM
I'll bump this. I know that the difference in design between the I & II models made turnrate slightly worse. But what differences would make it that more flatspin prone? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I remember that the Fiat Cr.42 had similar problem in the beginning (much worse imo), but it was corrected.

ElAurens
01-28-2007, 09:48 AM
I just did some tests offline on my test center map on the Crimea.

Airstarts at 2000 meters with 50% fuel and 90% throttle. Starting IAS is 300kph.

I make a hard left banking turn and induce stall.

The Ki43 Ic can do repeated stalls/recoveries as long as I have the altitude to do so. In the Ki43 II I made one recovery, induced the stall again and spun in. I tried every trick I know, save lowering the gear, and still went in. hard to believe that the two aircraft are that different.

I have a track as well, but unsure how to post it. Imageshack does not support the format.

voidcracker
01-28-2007, 10:07 AM
I also experienced this. It flat spun under me at a totally unexpected point. Never happened to me in the 43-I...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

F19_Olli72
01-28-2007, 10:19 AM
ElAurens, if you dont have anywhere else to upload tracks use a free hosting service like http://www.zshare.net/ or http://rapidshare.com/ . http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
01-28-2007, 11:06 AM
+1 I hope this will get corrected.
Was mentioned few days ago but the poster gets flamed.

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-28-2007, 12:15 PM
Yep I can confirm this as well. Im sure it will get a fix come 4.08.

RocketDog
01-28-2007, 12:24 PM
It spins like a top. Very strange compared to the Ki-43I. Hard to believe it's not a bug.

Cheers,

RD.

Mr_Nakajima
01-28-2007, 01:42 PM
Ditto.

ElAurens
01-28-2007, 02:19 PM
OK, here is a track.

Spins. (http://rapidshare.com/files/13846091/quick0004.ntrk)

alert_1
01-29-2007, 05:23 AM
Ki43 II vs. Ki43I is even worse then Me109G2 vs. Me109G6 - but WHY?

JG53Frankyboy
01-29-2007, 08:05 AM
well, an Oscar II had ~500kg more weight than an Oscar I.
so, beside its better speed, some fueltank and pilot protection (both not sufficient enough !)- it had worser performance.
but propably its handling in general should not differ so much.............
even the Oscar II could send allied pilots home ".........talking to themselves" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

btw, its a pitty that the Maddox team not choose to make instead of a Ki-43-II_KAI an Ki-43_IIIa http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
in my observation the both Ki-43-II has the identical performance............
so, a Ki-43-IIIa for 1944 , the Ki-43-II is actual a 1943 plane, with around 40km/h more speed (because of water-methanol injection boost) would have made more sense.
the first IIIa planes had the same exhaust pipe configuration like the II_Kai


an EDIT:
the mentioned 500kg weight difference was taken out of Francillons book..........
actually, 500kg sounds very much !
perhaps these numbers are more "true"
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/ki43.html

IF we can trust IL2compare, i said IF, in game the OScar II has 500kg more weight than the I !
so, the ingame Oscar I would be too light http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
01-29-2007, 10:23 AM
Reported.

AVGWarhawk
01-29-2007, 01:06 PM
Not always what Oleg has done. Your stick has a lot to do with it. Here is what I run the Ki and most of the other planes. Pitch 100 across the board, Roll 65 across the board. Yaw is 100 across the board. I use an X-52 saitek. The P-51/P-40 did the same thing until I used this setting. Also, the Russian aircraft fly best with the same settings but use 72 for the roll across the board. Try it, you will be surprised. I gave up on that10-20-30-....100 step settings with 1946. Step settings for sticks just do not work.

Feathered_IV
01-30-2007, 02:22 AM
Thanks Ivan. This one had me surprised as well.

JG53Frankyboy
01-30-2007, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Reported.

btw, has at least the Ki-43-II_KAI some fueltank- and pilotprotection modelled in game ?
the only guys who would know for sure are the Maddox team..........

"Since July 1943, Type 1 fighters produced by Nakajima had been equipped with self-sealing fuel tanks greatly improved over earlier largely ineffective attempts at fuel tank protection. The tanks were introduced on Tachikawa produced Hayabusas coming off the production line beginning in August. Nakajima produced machines also had 12mm armor plate behind the pilot seat and those produced beginning in September had improved armor. It seems possible the 77th went to Sumatra partially or fully equipped with these improved versions of the Type 1 fighter."

http://www.warbirdforum.com/lucky6.htm

to have at least a DamageModel difference between the two Oscar II models............

AVGWarhawk
01-30-2007, 12:39 PM
For the love of God check your sticks. I find all these stall bugs and problems are related to your stick input settings. Golly Ivan there is a spin....must be Olegs error. I'm telling you all, try nothing but 100 across the board for Yaw and Pitch and use 60-70 in roll for the input for your sticks.

It astounds me that it is always Olegs issues and not the loose nut behind the computer screen!!

AVGWarhawk
01-30-2007, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Thanks Ivan. This one had me surprised as well.

Gosh it surprised me also because as many times as I have flown the real plane it never stalled. Come on, what do you really know about the plane other than what you have read? I have never flown the plane perhaps it did stall under this circumstance maybe it is your stick settings....no way it is not that because my rig is perfect and set up to fly everything including the space shuttle.

Again, I did nothing but stall and flat spin with several of the planes until I corrected my stick settings. Give it a try and stop pointing at Oleg and a problem that very well might be created by you.

RamsteinUSA
01-30-2007, 03:12 PM
If they work on the other planes before fixing the P51 problem, MY head will Explode!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

joeap
01-30-2007, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
If they work on the other planes before fixing the P51 problem, MY head will Explode!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

What P-51 problem? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Hoarmurath
01-30-2007, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
If they work on the other planes before fixing the P51 problem, MY head will Explode!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

What P-51 problem? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lack of "i win" lever in cockpit, (along with the notice "pull to become instant ace") http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

ElAurens
01-30-2007, 04:31 PM
AVGWarhawk, the problem is real and has nothing to do with joystick settings. Especially bogus gamer settings like you espouse.

Hoarmurath, I am in total agreement, and I'm a Yank. The P51 is pretty good now. But no matter, this thread is about the Ki 43 II.

AVGWarhawk
01-30-2007, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
AVGWarhawk, the problem is real and has nothing to do with joystick settings. Especially bogus gamer settings like you espouse.

Hoarmurath, I am in total agreement, and I'm a Yank. The P51 is pretty good now. But no matter, this thread is about the Ki 43 II.


How bogus? I set up my X-52 with a step setting. Default 10-100 did not work well. I move them all up starting around 45-100 worked ok but still stalling on turns. It would always stall to the side I was turning and then a flat spin. My squad mate recommended these settings:

Pitch 100-100-100-100-100 all the way
Roll 65-65-65-65-65 all the way, adjust up to 70 if needed
Yaw 100-100-100-100-100-all the way

Problem was solved for all the planes I had issues with. So you see my expensive stick that should just plug in and fly perfectly was just less than perfect without some adjustments. Please do not claim these are bogus when in fact they work. I did not believe it myself until I did the adjustment. My flat spins and wing stall on turns is gone.

Logic would tell you that 100 across the board on stick adjustment would the flying surface would go straight to 100 when you move your stick. This is incorrect. If you watch your surface when moving the stick at 100 they will move in steps anyway. There is no need to step your adjustments at all. Your stick already steps your input automatically and will stop once your stick hits 100. Try it and you be the judge.

The only adjustment you need is roll as some planes like 65 across the board up to 71 across the board. Even a $4.00 stick can fly great with these settings.

By the way, the P40 is the schnizzle!!!

F19_Olli72
01-31-2007, 03:58 AM
Warhawk, how about keeping an open mind instead of assuming we dont know jack.

Your argument is simply that you stalled/spinned several planes until you changed your sticksettings.

Rethorically, one argument is that fm's have been bugged before, specifically with stall/spin issues. Fiat Cr42. That was clearly overdone in its spincharacteristics and so it was corrected.

Have you tested the plane(s) in question yourself? Did you bother to watch ElAurens track? Personally i dont think you have, because then you would understand what we're talking about here.

If you have no troubles with stall/spins in Ki-43 II, can you record track similar to ElAurens and show us?

AVGWarhawk
01-31-2007, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Warhawk, how about keeping an open mind instead of assuming we dont know jack.

Your argument is simply that you stalled/spinned several planes until you changed your sticksettings.

Rethorically, one argument is that fm's have been bugged before, specifically with stall/spin issues. Fiat Cr42. That was clearly overdone in its spincharacteristics and so it was corrected.

Have you tested the plane(s) in question yourself? Did you bother to watch ElAurens track? Personally i dont think you have, because then you would understand what we're talking about here.

If you have no troubles with stall/spins in Ki-43 II, can you record track similar to ElAurens and show us?

Personally, you don't know jack and are making an assumption that no testing was done and films not watch. Never assume as it makes an A**out of U and ME. I does not take a rocket scientist to determine if he should go test. Yes, test were conducted with the best pilot in our squad who formulated this stick settings. The plane never stalled or flat spinned. In fact he can turn this plane at 60 mph without stall or spin. Sounds to me sir that you do not have the open mind because you are a firm believer that this spin was created by Oleg's bad FM set up. Sounds to me like you have your mind made up and refuse to look at the forest for the trees. Perhaps the film makers should take another look and rule out stick issue if one present. One test pool of one person who has filmed the issue does not make a believer out of me. Six squadmates who use these settings to great effect sounds more true to fact that what has been presented with the origination of this thread. It is unfortunate that one film created a case closed situation. Good luck too you.

F19_Olli72
01-31-2007, 06:30 AM
What are u talking about..."It is unfortunate that one film created a case closed situation"?
Thats why i asked for a track! You know, you have the opportunity to show your claims about sticksettings. But if you dont... how can you expect us to take your word for it coming off with an attitude like yours?

As i said...i want to see tracks from you (or your sqadmembers) just to see what your results is. Nothing more nothing less, no need to be rude.

RocketDog
01-31-2007, 10:02 AM
AVGWarhawk, if stick settings can make the Ki-43II recover as easily from a spin as the Ki-43I, please post a track showing yourself repeatedly spinning and recovering one and I'll be convinced.

I'd be very interested to see because using my usual stick settings it is very hard to recover the Ki-43II from a spin. It usually takes a good few rotations and requires a non-standard recovery technique. Quite different from the Ki-43I. Anyway, I'll try your settings at home tonight and see if it makes any difference.

Cheers,

RD.

crazyivan1970
01-31-2007, 10:20 AM
Ahem, Warhawk... i dont report anything that i cannot confirm. There is obvious problem in behavior of Ki43 II regarding flat spin. It has nothing to do with controls. It is simply how it behaves comparing to other Ki43 series. 1941 Ki43 you have to work into flat spin and if you mange it to spin, it recovers at will.

BlitzPig_DDT
01-31-2007, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
There is obvious problem in behavior of Ki43 II regarding flat spin. It has nothing to do with controls.

Ditto the F6F. But it's lack of speed is a bigger issue than it's excessive stall/spin characteristics.

Every bit as important as this issue (if not more so). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RamsteinUSA
01-31-2007, 11:50 AM
The problem will come back to bite Oleg Big Time!

How you ask?? because, as they develop and release BOB- SOW:
They will catch up to the years with these aircraft flew, and will make the P51, P47, and Japanese Planes all over again for their next sim.

Then if they use the same FM/DM they will have made it bad all over again!

If they correct it in the later patches and addons for the BOB-SOW series they will have to admit the IL-2 PF models were totally wrong and never fixed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

So, They must be fixed now, before they are caught Red-Handed in a Catch-22 !!


How the hell will they explain that away??!!


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

crazyivan1970
01-31-2007, 11:54 AM
First of all, it`s japanese, not jap. Second of all, i am not sure what you talking about Ramstein...and third of all, this topic is about Ki43 and NOT american fighters.

AVGWarhawk
01-31-2007, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Ahem, Warhawk... i dont report anything that i cannot confirm. There is obvious problem in behavior of Ki43 II regarding flat spin. It has nothing to do with controls. It is simply how it behaves comparing to other Ki43 series. 1941 Ki43 you have to work into flat spin and if you mange it to spin, it recovers at will.

I'm not stating that the originator of this thread is incorrect or wrong. I'm stating that possibly the stick set up could be the cause. Nothing more, nothing less. We cannot simulate the flat spin. Few threads up someone states getting out of the spin. We are trying to prevent the spin here, correct? Then I have some F19 guy telling me a few post back about attitude...he needs to read his first post in response and help me understand his first sentence that has something with jack.

I digress at this point. What I feel is this; 80-90% of BAD FM is contributed to poor sticks and stick settings. Oleg has taken enough beatings for others not wanting to believe their rig could be the cause.

I see that a few need a film. I will ask my squadmate to make one if possible. If not, all I can ask is change your settings for this plane and see if the spin stops for you.

BlitzPig_DDT
01-31-2007, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
First of all, it`s japanese, not jap. Second of all, i am not sure what you talking about Ramstein...and third of all, this topic is about Ki43 and NOT american fighters.

I posted to you in the appropriate thread first with no reply. So I tried one you apparently had more interest in, since the issue is simply too big to let go. It's absolutely killing the plane.

On a side nore, Jap is no worse than Kraut. It's national, not racial. (I like the Japanese and don't use the term 'jap' myself, personally, but I also don't use 'kraut' either. lol)

F19_Olli72
01-31-2007, 12:17 PM
Call me odd, but im one of those strange ppl who takes offense beeing called an A** http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It will be interesting to see the tracks though.

RamsteinUSA
01-31-2007, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
First of all, it`s japanese, not jap. Second of all, i am not sure what you talking about Ramstein...and third of all, this topic is about Ki43 and NOT american fighters.

as long as you continue to fight me over getting problems fixed it wil be a struggle,, why do you have to fight us over the fixing of problems???

Why??
Why??
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

F19_Olli72
01-31-2007, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I will ask my squadmate to make one if possible. If not, all I can ask is change your settings for this plane and see if the spin stops for you.

And why wouldnt it be possible? Its not that hard to record tracks and post it. No track = no proof you know.

AVGWarhawk
01-31-2007, 12:27 PM
I believe he can do the track or my other squad mate. I'm not the computer guru around these parts. But to what effect would a track show you? I cannot show the stick settings at time of flight correct? All I can show is the turning of the plane, not much evidence there. Can the originator of the thread change his stick settings and see if it clears up the problem? He sure can. All I know is this setting has cleared up 99% of any and all stall problems with my X52. The other 1% is the Tempest.

F19_Olli72
01-31-2007, 12:32 PM
As i suggested earlier, a track similar to ElAurens; stall/spin recovery in Ki-43 I and II for comparison.

BlitzPig_DDT
01-31-2007, 12:33 PM
Warhawk, stick settings usually are the cause of problems of stall and spin - by being set TOO HIGH. Lowering them, creating a curve, is recommended by Oleg himself, and cures the stall and spin issuse that are created by the stick sesttings.

AVGWarhawk
01-31-2007, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
As i suggested earlier, a track similar to ElAurens; stall/spin recovery in Ki-43 I and II for comparison.

I have an issue here....you state stall/spin RECOVERY http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif . What I'm suggesting is stopping what puts you in the stall/spin. The original post as i read it says it spins to easily like the P39 of old did. He speaking of the plane slipping out from under him. So which is it? Preventing the spin or getting out of it when you end up spinning?

F19_Olli72
01-31-2007, 12:57 PM
Imo its both. Its the huge difference between the Ki-43 I & II stall/spin characteristics kind of fishy to me.

Furthermore, i have to say i do not have any issues with other planes.

RocketDog
01-31-2007, 01:01 PM
Well, AVG, I tried your stick settings as per P1 of this thread (inc. 100 across the board for pitch). I have to say that I am amazed you can fly that way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The stick is so sensitive that it is very difficult to aim and the spin and spin-recovery behaviour of the 43II is unchanged. I'm also unsure as to why you would want to limit aileron travel to less than 100% (which is what across the board 60-70 aileron settings will do). This simply prevents the aircraft from ever reaching its maximum roll rate under any circumstances. Not clever if you want to expolit a good roll rate.

Overall, I agree with Ivan that there is something up with the FM because the real-life Ki-43s were known to be docile with quite benign handling.

Anyway, please post up a spin-recovery track if you can get one. I can get it out of a spin after a few rotations but it's tough to do. As with Olli, I don't have this problem with other aircraft.

Cheers,

RD.

AVGWarhawk
01-31-2007, 01:15 PM
Truly, I'm amazed myself. Heck one fly has his roll rate starting at 100 and working down the scale http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. I was afraid it would be twitchy as with the old patch but it is not. I reduce the roll rate because once I get into the 80-100 range my plane will stall. Limit surface for prevention of this and my 100% elevator give me the turning radius I need. I do not out turn Japanese aircraft while I fly American aircraft but that is ok because that is how it was. Can I perform and have a fighting chance against the rail runners? YES!

AVGWarhawk
01-31-2007, 02:53 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9911024925/p/2

Go about half way down the page and see the settings for the FW190 posted by Kaleun Freddie. So you see, my numbers are not so outlandish. His plane flys great!

crazyivan1970
01-31-2007, 03:23 PM
@DDT. I simply dont have time to keep up with all threads, there is always PM.

crazyivan1970
02-05-2007, 10:06 PM
seems to be fixed in 408

Feathered_IV
02-06-2007, 01:26 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif Thanks Ivan!

DustyBarrels77
02-06-2007, 07:44 AM
all the aircraft now go into slightly difficult spins. flat spins or wanting to flip on thier back when going over the edge. They also loose alot of E for the first time creating a penalty for a stall. Please dont whine this back into arcadism, Its good now for the first time and the easy to fly ac only crowd are not use to needing some sort of energy fighting keeping airspeed up like the real ac when turning. I wouldnt call it a bug, just a change to all aircraft. The ki43s and all ac still make thier sustained turn times exactly or very very close. Give it time to get use to.

joeap
02-06-2007, 11:45 AM
Haven't installed 4.08 yet Dusty, but if what you say is true, good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif