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View Full Version : Poll: are the AI pwn-ing you?



M_Gunz
03-06-2007, 08:29 PM
Just to see how forums members are averaging against the buggers.

Haigotron
03-06-2007, 08:44 PM
Well more so with the new jets, i guess im not used to jet fighting, but is it me, or does the AI jets gain altitude incredibly fast w/ sustained high AoA climbs...

Waldo.Pepper
03-06-2007, 08:56 PM
Nobody pwn's me but my wife.

K_Freddie
03-06-2007, 11:22 PM
I use the 'ACE' AI for cannon fodder practice before I go online ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

leitmotiv
03-06-2007, 11:39 PM
I get a good fight from Average/Veteran, but Ace shoots so preternaturally well I reserve it for times when I am ridiculously optimistic.

La7_brook
03-06-2007, 11:48 PM
dogfightings like chess, guess the next move or a few moves ahead will help ya game , now AI are easy too see the moves ahead http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif im thinking that BoB will bring more for the AI , then we have now

Xiolablu3
03-07-2007, 12:20 AM
Forget the AI, get online as soon as possible.


They are easy to beat if you use your brain.

Like Brook said, think of it less like a fight and more like chess.

M_Gunz
03-07-2007, 12:55 AM
Xio, the only online I've ever cared for is co-ops.
DF can be good but usually it's kind of a mess, IMO the respawn creates poor situations.

And I see with 17 votes so far a trend >might< be forming that if it holds I do hope gets
noticed at a certain address in Moscow. Perhaps the AI could be tweaked a little even
though there is zero chance of rewrite or add.

I'll wait for more votes, perhaps squads can bring in votes from members that do not come
here often or at all and we get more opinions of the silent ones with much experience.

Klemm.co
03-07-2007, 01:48 AM
I find the AI on Veteran and Ace to be quite a challenge, but of course if they are alone or only to against me alone then i will of course shoot them down if i am in a better or equal plane. The AI on Average is somewhat realistic. The only thing that bugs me is that they only seem to have one evasive manouver if you are coming up behind them and are shooting or are about to shoot.
I think you all know it. Roll (not barrel roll), rolling uneven so it is difficult to aim and then dive away. Its just soooo lame to see it all the time and just exactly know what they will do.
If only the occasional Veteran and Ace AI would do it, that would be OK with me. But EVERY skill level is doing this.
I know that the AI can handle their aircraft perfectly and thus initiate a 240 degree/second roll and end it after 180 degrees to make a split s and so has some advantage. So i am not supposed to find it strange that the AI can handle their a/c perfectly. But. Humans just don't do that. They don't alway handle their aircraft perfectly. So when a sim is supposed to model aircombat and all the actors except the humans are flawless, it does not really resemble aircombat. It would just be nice to see the AI make some "normal" errors like humans do, like stalling out, not shooting at an aircraft that has been for 15 seconds under your motor and so on. Not that the AI has no weaknesses that i cant exploit. But these weaknesses are just too typical for a computer. For example in combat down low on the deck last night they repeatedly smash into the ground doing this strange evasive manouver, rolling on their back, pulling down, rolling back upright and pulling up again. Unfortunately sometimes their altitude was just too low and they effectively killed themselves with a stupid move. But i also sometimes shot their elevator off and so this move even killed them from a somewhat higher altitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I just cant understand what the developers were thinking when they programmed this stupid behaviour.
Because of this i almost never play against veteran and even more less against the ace AI.

R_Target
03-07-2007, 02:11 AM
I usually go against double or triple odds to make things suitably frantic. Sometimes I pwn, sometimes they do.

bazzaah2
03-07-2007, 02:28 AM
once you know the routines the AI is quite straightforward to beat. I never go to Ace as I just think all the characteristics of AI that I find annoying will be more pronounced.

If I have problems, I know the problem is the way I'm flying rather than the AI being fantastic. That said, the AI does frequently try and bounce you and it can be very good.

But overall I find the AI a strange combination of the very good and the very bad which doesn't quite average out as OK.

Xiolablu3
03-07-2007, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Xio, the only online I've ever cared for is co-ops.
DF can be good but usually it's kind of a mess, IMO the respawn creates poor situations.

And I see with 17 votes so far a trend >might< be forming that if it holds I do hope gets
noticed at a certain address in Moscow. Perhaps the AI could be tweaked a little even
though there is zero chance of rewrite or add.

I'll wait for more votes, perhaps squads can bring in votes from members that do not come
here often or at all and we get more opinions of the silent ones with much experience.


You have PM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FritzGryphon
03-07-2007, 03:22 AM
Where's the option for: The AI's so broke I can can roll like water over 100 of them like a hundredweight against a grain in a narrow defile with the sun behind me.

mynameisroland
03-07-2007, 03:50 AM
On campaigns the AI never troubles me other than AI gunners. When I play QMBs I set up me vs 4 fighters (average/veterans) or me and a wing man against 8 AI fighters. Its easy to avoid the AI getting a shot at you but conversely its difficult to hit the AI because they can pull more G, dive faster and climb better than any human player.

All in all after years of online playing i think its actually easier to kill real people than average AI with the exception of a few human pilots who are the equivalent of AI Aces and then some.

DKoor
03-07-2007, 03:57 AM
And yes, where's "Ai gets pwnzored hard" option?

Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Nobody pwn's me but my wife. +1 but oh boy, she "catch up" all what others are missing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Like Boemher said the only thing I worry are Ai snipers... but high speed cures that for the most part. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

otpisan
03-07-2007, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
And yes, where's "Ai gets pwnzored hard" option?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Nobody pwn's me but my wife. +1 but oh boy, she "catch up" all what others are missing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Like Boemher said the only thing I worry are Ai snipers... but high speed cures that for the most part. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, it is possible to attack and destroy 4 ace He-111s (without fighter-protection, of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) with a single IL-2 series 3, using rockets (1-1.5 seconds delay, preferences may vary) and its pair of 23 mm cannons, diving from 4 o'clock, hitting 450-500 IAS, rolling and jinking a bit after a pass, then nicely zooming and extending, then going in/down for another pass, without ever being hit.

OTOH, 1-on-1 vs an AI ace in the same or even a slightly slower, similarly or a bit better turning plane is almost impossible, because of "no overheat" advantage of the AI, so, with co-energy or even co-altitude and higher speed, AI very often manages to turn and come after me, slowly closing the gap, though it should not be able to (remember: I was probably in a faster plane and did not turn at all). Seems like I have to go for a head-on or hope for an over-shoot ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

DKoor
03-07-2007, 05:46 AM
I have one good track for you O... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Hurri vs He-111's (http://www.esnips.com/doc/efa646ab-a81e-4ade-9201-58b51d5487da/KunaHurri-vs-4xHe111-405)

When I think about this, the things that are required in antibomber missions are:
-you must know your plane good (to avoid constant overheat due to climbing requires)
-you must be average shooter or better (preferably)
-you must be very patient

And if all things are fulfilled the only thing that can stop you for scoring a kill vs ace bomber is extreme unluck (that he disable you with some, even for them, out-of-mind PK shot or something http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif ).

Also check out my He-111 kill that I scored while flying IL-2... he he insanity:
IL-2 vs He-111 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/a2ca0ab0-c423-447e-ba6b-5e5be9fc1b41/KunaIL2-vs-He111bombkill-402)

Brain32
03-07-2007, 05:51 AM
How about the "I pwn the AI but they irritate the living sh1t out of me" option?

PFflyer
03-07-2007, 05:53 AM
Ace AI is as easy to beat up as a Catholic School girl, which is what you are if they can give you any trouble!

A sharp online ace is 5 or 6 times more dangerous an opponent than ace AI.

You can test this. Just get to the point where you can beat 4-6 ace AI opponents regularly under hard settings, and when you go online, you will be able to take all you have learned, and still easily find someone who will use you for TP.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
03-07-2007, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:


And I see with 17 votes so far a trend >might< be forming that if it holds I do hope gets
noticed at a certain address in Moscow. Perhaps the AI could be tweaked a little even
though there is zero chance of rewrite or add.



The Kremlin? Somehow I don't think Putin is going to be that sympathetic

EctoGamma
03-07-2007, 05:55 AM
Having never played online I feel I have a good hold on the ai. Its usually only bombers that shoot me down.

Hoatee
03-07-2007, 05:57 AM
UQMG set to generate a high number of bandits and random skill is my cup of tea - you'll never know for sure what you're up against (or how reliable your wingman is) in spite of the limit to four levels (rookie etc.). As for the pwn-ing bit, I don't care, you win some and lose some. At least it's pretty pointless arguing with artificial intelligence (timesaver too, ever argue with human intelligence?).

Pirschjaeger
03-07-2007, 06:33 AM
This poll is rigged!http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Where is "I can easily beat them and I don't think they cheat"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

rigged, rigged, rigged!

carguy_
03-07-2007, 06:38 AM
The AI is so FUBAR in some cases that it spoils any fun.

Take highspeed planes or example.

P40M,FW190,P51,Yaks,Tschaikas and Ratas due to high elevator authority let AI make 9G maneuvers without blacking out or losing wings.
Being jumped by a AI P51 doing 800km/h from 3000m and 50degree deflection shots leaves a bad taste.

Also AIs have no speed limits so if yuo`re in a FW190 doing 820km/h be sure that the AI Yak is still there chasing you.

The most molested plane is the Spit.AI cheats so a comp. driven Spitfire retains like 50%more energy then a human driven Spit.It shows the idiotic sniper ability of AI pretty well.


The AI level is kinda chaotic.Those godlike AIs sometimes don`t even know how to land,they don`t see enemy plane 100m from them,they go completely nutz when the ngine dies.

Thus in some cases you either set to rookie/average and get a complete idiot AI or set to veteran/ace and get an unbeatable godlike snipersight cheater.

I do not know how do offliners get fun out of being chased by 5enemy planes but online having some fighter AI in coops really spoils the fun one out of two missions.


Yes,AI is pwning me,also due to the fact that my whole Schwarm wanders of to nowhere most of the time let alone having a good wingman.


A little vent after being owned by AI when blacked out in a hard maneuver@520km/h.

otpisan
03-07-2007, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
I have one good track for you O... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Hurri vs He-111's (http://www.esnips.com/doc/efa646ab-a81e-4ade-9201-58b51d5487da/KunaHurri-vs-4xHe111-405)

When I think about this, the things that are required in antibomber missions are:
-you must know your plane good (to avoid constant overheat due to climbing requires)
-you must be average shooter or better (preferably)
-you must be very patient

And if all things are fulfilled the only thing that can stop you for scoring a kill vs ace bomber is extreme unluck (that he disable you with some, even for them, out-of-mind PK shot or something http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif ).

Also check out my He-111 kill that I scored while flying IL-2... he he insanity:
IL-2 vs He-111 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/a2ca0ab0-c423-447e-ba6b-5e5be9fc1b41/KunaIL2-vs-He111bombkill-402)

Bombing the bombers - nice idea. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On the topic of sniper bomber gunners: every now and then I get killed (PK) with one of the first bullets (I never notice any tracers) from the waist gunner in a Betty (7.xx mm single MG) while closing fairly fast from slightly above and around 350-400 m away. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Btw, I am an average shooter on my better days, but pretty patient, at least in this game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and also doing my HW regarding offline immersion, i.e. RTB when the engine is damaged, always save a burst or two, just in case, break off when being hit or wounded etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P.S.: AI fighters, regardless of skill level, seem to have visual problem with some buildings, chimneys etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Worf101
03-07-2007, 08:50 AM
I find it to be a mixed bag. When offline I fly campaigns and find that, as long as there some A.I. on my side, I can generally do better than hold my own and win more than I lose. Online I mostly "ground pound" so as long as we get the "Red Wins" I don't care if some joker in a 109 gets me. But I can avoid online A.I. pretty easy, online humans, phew that's another matter.

Da Worfster

roybaty
03-07-2007, 09:12 AM
I can deal with Ace AI but not having a fear factor, is an issue. For instance if IHO an ACE AI it'll just ram me with trying to avoid the collision. It's annoying when the AI pull High positive or negative G's with no ill effect and see through clouds.

Online you can use Clouds for cover, and people avoid extreme G's so they don't black out and lose their vision.

CarpeNoctem43
03-07-2007, 09:46 AM
Just wanted to clarify my vote: I beat the AI but it cheats too much.

I beat AI on regular basis on ACE 1 on 2 with 'comparable' planes. Vs. 3 and 4, they get me a lot more than I get them.

I don't think the AI cheats exactly, I think they could be smarter, have more advanced manuevers and depend less on no black out and no overheat, etc.

I would like it if that were the case. But I still have TONS on fun with QMB 1 on many.

-Rick

R_Target
03-07-2007, 10:18 AM
The one that makes me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif is: two bandits behind me, and my wingman behind them, but he won't shoot.

Rammathorn_
03-07-2007, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
All in all after years of online playing i think its actually easier to kill real people than average AI with the exception of a few human pilots who are the equivalent of AI Aces and then some.

I completely agree with you. When I started flying online (Warclouds) I was expecting to get absoltely wrecked due to my inability to master the AI. For the first couple of weeks I was getting shot down all over the place, but it didn't take long until I was completing sorties with Air kills over 50% of the time.

I think flying against the AI teaches you to be a superhuman marksman and squeeze a few extra Km/Hr out in a chase, but flying online is a whole new set of rules otherwise.

M_Gunz
03-07-2007, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Where's the option for: The AI's so broke I can can roll like water over 100 of them like a hundredweight against a grain in a narrow defile with the sun behind me.

Oops.

M_Gunz
03-07-2007, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
This poll is rigged!http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Where is "I can easily beat them and I don't think they cheat"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

rigged, rigged, rigged!

Yer absolutely right. Need a new poll!

M_Gunz
03-07-2007, 03:17 PM
I can change the poll choices but that would reset the counters... sorry ALL.

rnzoli
03-07-2007, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
The one that makes me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif is: two bandits behind me, and my wingman behind them, but he won't shoot. Make sure you ask for help (Alt+7) or request coverage (Alt+1+1). Without that order, indeed your wingman will not do anything but flies on your six in sightseeing mode http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Since I am a regular co-op flyer with a mixture of human and AI pilots, I can say that the overall gap between AI (spread skills, e.g. squadron leader Veterans, flight leaders average and tail enders rookies) and humans aren't so wide online. Sometimes it is not easy to tell, who is who http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Takes some practice, humans sacrifice angles for speed, AI tries to remain faster all the time. In terms of skills, there are humans who pawn AI and other humans too. I feel that anti-AI mania is a little exaggerated, more pilots fall victim to the cooperation between an AI leader and AI wingman (classic drag-and-bag) than its superior G-tolerance and shooting skills.

F0_Dark_P
03-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
The AI is so FUBAR in some cases that it spoils any fun.

Take highspeed planes or example.

P40M,FW190,P51,Yaks,Tschaikas and Ratas due to high elevator authority let AI make 9G maneuvers without blacking out or losing wings.
Being jumped by a AI P51 doing 800km/h from 3000m and 50degree deflection shots leaves a bad taste.

Also AIs have no speed limits so if yuo`re in a FW190 doing 820km/h be sure that the AI Yak is still there chasing you.

The most molested plane is the Spit.AI cheats so a comp. driven Spitfire retains like 50%more energy then a human driven Spit.It shows the idiotic sniper ability of AI pretty well.


The AI level is kinda chaotic.Those godlike AIs sometimes don`t even know how to land,they don`t see enemy plane 100m from them,they go completely nutz when the ngine dies.

Thus in some cases you either set to rookie/average and get a complete idiot AI or set to veteran/ace and get an unbeatable godlike snipersight cheater.

I do not know how do offliners get fun out of being chased by 5enemy planes but online having some fighter AI in coops really spoils the fun one out of two missions.


Yes,AI is pwning me,also due to the fact that my whole Schwarm wanders of to nowhere most of the time let alone having a good wingman.


A little vent after being owned by AI when blacked out in a hard maneuver@520km/h.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I was diving my 109 around 750kph vs a Yak, but that guy was like a plaster on my azz! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
really hope we wont se this in bob.

horseback
03-07-2007, 05:55 PM
I was diving my 109 around 750kph vs a Yak, but that guy was like a plaster on my azz!
really hope we wont se this in bob.
Well, probably not until we get to Storm of War: Barbarossa.

The only AI who are pwn-ing me are the defensive gunners. THOSE bastages exhibit marksmanship beyond modern ground basedautomated gun systems' capabilities, much less the airborne ones!

The bogus evasion routines and performance cheats of the AI pilots are merely annoying because they are immersion killers.

cheers

horseback

Pirschjaeger
03-07-2007, 07:38 PM
I see lots of complaints about AI but I see no one saying "I'm ready to upgrade my pc for better AI"

I'm no software expert but I imagine if Oleg made a much more complex AI we'd find them draining our hardware resources. Does this make sense?

lowfighter
03-07-2007, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I see lots of complaints about AI but I see no one saying "I'm ready to upgrade my pc for better AI"



I would. But the question is: what means "better AI"? With some people AI's are Ok now, others are not content with them, others are in between. Even among the discontented the reasons for that can vary quite a lot. Also the critical attitude towards the AI might depend on what each one expect from the game ITSELF. This is the root of many divergences on the forums, and not only about AI.

M_Gunz
03-07-2007, 11:36 PM
Does the AI act different with just one as opposed to seven, Pirsch? I guess that ground units
in the area count as well. I had written to Oleg about wanting a version of the code much like
dedicated server except as dedicated AI just for LAN use to take load off the player machine
and allow more to the AI. Such machines would not need high end video, CPU and as much RAM
yet should let players use their old PC's with eithernet to work as more powerful standalone.

I wrote that such a LAN would make a better server. He replied that online the AI load *is*
shared out. So question arises on the difference between online and off as well as how many
AI on what hardware making any qualitative differences.

I know that we do tend to load things down to get a more active environment and that does
not always work to the best.

Pirschjaeger
03-08-2007, 12:01 AM
Hi Gunz,

I guess I haven't noticed but then again I rarely fly IL-2 anymore.

M_Gunz
03-08-2007, 12:07 AM
Anyone want to PM to cooperatively create a better poll to get to the root of the matter?
It occurs to me that a multi-question poll might work better, 2-4 questions should do?
The first post should be where a 'current state' is kept up to date (edited) according to
some kind of consensus and maybe a method of viewing and attacking problem definition and
can come out of such a thing... maybe with luck and if the PM group can keep focussed.

ViktorViktor
03-08-2007, 04:29 AM
Well, I've been following this thread, and have just finished voting.

But I gotta ask: What does pwn-ing mean ?

msalama
03-08-2007, 05:46 AM
But I gotta ask: What does pwn-ing mean ?

Pwn = own if I've the foggiest. I.e got pwned / pwnZ0r3D / etc. = got owned by someone, or in other words you were sadly humiliated because of evil deeds by someone human or virtual...

M_Gunz
03-08-2007, 08:26 AM
O key is next to P key just like 3 is backwards E, U replaces 'you', etc, and P is also
used in :-P as in face with tongue sticking out emoticon from pre-click-graphics net days.

Beyond that, take your choice and it could still be something else, it's a widely known
net term like 1337 translates to "leet" comes from elite which is 14-year-old-average
for "I can do more than the simplest things.". But it is a known net word among the
people that know net words, just newer generation than btw and afaik. It has meaning
which is pretty much "dominated and abused" and worse than just being beat. If your
sports team wins by one point, someone will sing out that they pwned the other team.
And if they win solidly then some fans on the other side might even agree.

It's a funny old world.