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rosco_147
05-09-2007, 05:56 AM
I'm new in this site , but I am an old fun of il2 series.
I play with this game from about 5, 6 years and I want to know , why oleg hasn't think to introduce an important and a fomous plane like the Sm.79 savoia marchetti ?
Does anybody know this?

URlNSTlNKT
05-09-2007, 06:30 AM
from or since? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fox_3
05-09-2007, 06:32 AM
You could ask that about any number of aircraft. But iirc a SM79 was in the process of being modelled but for some reason failed to make it into the game.

vince14
05-10-2007, 02:01 AM
I guess it's being held back for SoW:BoB.

Gatt59
05-10-2007, 04:48 AM
I dont think so. During the Battle of Britain the italian CAI flew mainly BR.20M bombers, G.50bis and Cr.42s fighters. Some Cant Z1007 bombers were used as well.

The SM.79 will be a MED (North Africa, Malta, Sicily) add-on torpedo-bomber. At least we hope so.

XyZspineZyX
05-10-2007, 10:27 AM
Historical importance does not necessarily determine a plane's place in the sim is gauranteed. Many players feel there is some sort of "list of planes", and that some less needed types bumped off important ones

It's not so, however

DVX_immortal
05-10-2007, 03:02 PM
No problem BBB462cid if Oleg Maddox and 1C or RRG studios not developed sm79 we not buy your product but search and buy alternative product.

Example CFS2 Sm79: http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3360/s79difesaaereada9.png


Target tobruck italian programmator and developers:http://www.targettobruk.net/images/cant_z1007bis_1.jpg
http://www.targettobruk.net/images/sm79.jpg


BBB462cid you not understand me if 1C not product the important plane not have money ok?
MICROSOFT is a plus serious software house but 1C not serious.
yes italians are arrognats because you english not respect the italian story we italian respect you and read england story but you continuing ignore italian story.

XyZspineZyX
05-10-2007, 03:32 PM
No, I understand you perfectly. You came here to advertise a MICROSOFT sim, and don't care about trying to inform others of things about this one, and you have decided to engage me in some sort of challenge. You also feel it some sort of personal insult that Oleg Maddox does not have this particulat Italian aircraft in the sim, and you feel somehow justified in taking out that anger on me, as if I had anything to do with it, or even care about your bullsh!t

It is my sincere hope that you understand me when I tell you to bore it, stroke it, and run it up your old tan track just as hard and as far as it will go

If that isn't clear, I will explain:

My Grandmother and two Great Uncles came to this country (the United States) from Tuscany in the '20s. My Uncle Gene (actually my Great Uncle Eugene) was with the US Army when they went across the old family vineyards, which were sold to send him and his little sister and brother to America. Perhaps you have heard of their family: Puccini

They would be disgusted to see you address me the way you just did. Since they are dead, I'll do my best to tell you how I feel about your reply to me.

your agressive insistance on addressing me to the exclusion of others here tells me something. Go screw yourself. Do you understand what I am saying to you? Please indciate to me if you do not understand, I will post it in Italian. I also am not English, I am American, but I am part Scottish in addition to being part Italian, so you can imagine my temperment. I despise your flagrant bigotry against the English and I really rather don't care for you

Please indicate to me whether or not you understand what I have just told you because I want to make sure you do.

DVX_immortal
05-10-2007, 04:13 PM
example why in this forum not exist italian box and italian flags?
Note i see in this forum GERMAN and FRANCE flags
WHY? italian forum is SEPARATE to english ubi forum? WHY?
i know and supposing if english comunity not retain the italian comunity important and ignore that why?
this is one example to esplode me my arrogance and ma nervous temperament and agressive temperament.

XyZspineZyX
05-10-2007, 04:33 PM
Baciami il culo

Abraxa
05-11-2007, 05:37 AM
I'm the first one to raise the voice when I read some bulls..t about Italy and the Italians. Unfortunately, I also happen to read some grotesque rants written by few fellow Italians, concerning discriminations and stuff.
Really, this doesn't help anybody! Apart few idiots (everybody have his share of "my country basher"), I've seen a lot of interest and curiosity about the Italian wardbids in the international community, so any rant about being ignored is really out of place.

I've been personally involved in the developement of the Italian birds. And even if my contribution was limited to the default textures of few of them, I think I have a quite complete view of how things have gone.

If the SM79 isn't in the game it's just because we (the "Club Med" members) weren't able to complete it according to the standards asked by 1C. The job was accomplished for many other birds, now flyable in the game, not so for the SM 79. That's the whole story in few words.

Please, don't build on this fact unexisting scenarios of conspiracies, plots and discriminations.

mynameisroland
05-11-2007, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by DVX_immortal:
example why in this forum not exist italian box and italian flags?
Note i see in this forum GERMAN and FRANCE flags
WHY? italian forum is SEPARATE to english ubi forum? WHY?
i know and supposing if english comunity not retain the italian comunity important and ignore that why?
this is one example to esplode me my arrogance and ma nervous temperament and agressive temperament.

God you really have a chip on your shoulder about some percieved wronmg doings against your great country. Imagine if you actually had aircraft to be proud of like the Lancaster or B17 which arent flyable in IL2 then you really would be angry lol

Gatt59
05-11-2007, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
I am American, but I am part Scottish in addition to being part Italian, so you can imagine my temperment

Wew, a hot temper indeed. Ed anche un buon bicchiere immagino http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bigha_86
05-11-2007, 07:41 AM
Cazzo, figata di discorso...by the way, I think like DVX even if I'm not so aggresive... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The problem is that u, english and winners, doesn't care of us, the italians, just becouse for some idiots that passed to the allies, u think the war for italians where ended in '43. there are a lot of italians that went on fighting for our honor, our contry. And u hate that... so...no SM79, no g55, no italians tank (the bersaglieri and folgore used italian tanks. they were the best in afrika...we kicked ur ***es englishes!). that's it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Abraxa
05-11-2007, 07:47 AM
cool, a conference of geniuses in the ORR http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3538/121709768a3b096764oib0.jpg

mynameisroland
05-11-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Bigha_86:
Cazzo, figata di discorso...by the way, I think like DVX even if I'm not so aggresive... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The problem is that u, english and winners, doesn't care of us, the italians, just becouse for some idiots that passed to the allies, u think the war for italians where ended in '43. there are a lot of italians that went on fighting for our honor, our contry. And u hate that... so...no SM79, no g55, no italians tank (the bersaglieri and folgore used italian tanks. they were the best in afrika...we kicked ur ***es englishes!). that's it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif


If you kicked Britain and the CommonWealth - not England's - ars1e in the desert why was Rommel and the Africa Korps sent out there to help you boys out?>

All of the British vets from the Desert War I spoke to regarded the average Italian Soldier as a joke compared to one of Rommels lot.

veltro205
05-11-2007, 10:03 AM
Are we going to start another futile war of stereotypes against stereotypes for narrow-minded people?

If stupidity was money, no more problems in this world... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Sincerely

Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico

mynameisroland
05-11-2007, 10:14 AM
Lets not, but whats with two nationalistic Whinefest posts Italy is porked/unrepresented/slurred in the space of two days - is it School break over there?

269GA-Veltro
05-11-2007, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bigha_86:
Cazzo, figata di discorso...by the way, I think like DVX even if I'm not so aggresive... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The problem is that u, english and winners, doesn't care of us, the italians, just becouse for some idiots that passed to the allies, u think the war for italians where ended in '43. there are a lot of italians that went on fighting for our honor, our contry. And u hate that... so...no SM79, no g55, no italians tank (the bersaglieri and folgore used italian tanks. they were the best in afrika...we kicked ur ***es englishes!). that's it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif


If you kicked Britain and the CommonWealth - not England's - ars1e in the desert why was Rommel and the Africa Korps sent out there to help you boys out?>

All of the British vets from the Desert War I spoke to regarded the average Italian Soldier as a joke compared to one of Rommels lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest you to don't considere this kinde of people and comments, they are not representative of italian community and they only damage us with their stupidity, and first of all the memory of our soldiers because of your reaction.

About italian soldiers, i can only say to you that my grand father had great respect of the brit soldiers because of their courage in battle...and he fought very hard against them. Please don't answer to those offensive post playing the song of the average italian soldiers in North Africa....

My grand father (81mm mortar section commander) and his brother (anti tank cannon) fought very hard there, and the second died when he was 20 because of a Valentine tank. The day before he had destroyed two of them. They fought during the operation Crusader in the Bir El Gobi battle. They were in the "Mussolini's Boys" battalion....if you know what i'm talking about. When you say: "All of the British vets from the Desert War I spoke to regarded the average Italian Soldier as a joke compared to one of Rommels lot" i don't know what are you talking about. This kinde of statement don't tuch me, not my family.

So, here, i'm one of the italians "who can speaks"....and what i say is: don't care about those very stupid and offensive words; please don't accept the gauntlet, not in this way at least. Simple ignore them. If you're Brit, i apologies with you for their words.

@Ivan, please begin to ban these italian trolls.

veltro205
05-11-2007, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Lets not, but whats with two nationalistic Whinefest posts Italy is porked/unrepresented/slurred in the space of two days - is it School break over there?
Maybe... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Have you control of the behaviour of all your fellow countrymen...? Same here.

Please, being childish in reply to childishness is not a wise behaviour. There were goods and bads on all sides. I am glad we lose the war and thus ended a dictatorship. But this doesn't mean I am not proud of the behaviour of many of my ancestors while there was a war on.

I am also proud that there were Italians fighting against Fascism, while I respect some of those who continued to fight on its side in good faith or feeling betrayed by the King (strange how it may seem, there were many, especially in the Air Force).

A civil war is not a piece of cake, believe me, and we are still feeling heavily the events of over sixty years ago.

So, go figure if I want to start a debate on such topic! Better keep on speaking of aircraft and their quality/merits, rather than falling in traps made by trolls with some kind of backward political agenda...

All the best

Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico

Abraxa
05-11-2007, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Lets not, but whats with two nationalistic Whinefest posts Italy is porked/unrepresented/slurred in the space of two days - is it School break over there?


And did you notice that such posts received several answers from Italian people?

It takes a couple of idiots to make a whole whinefest, and not rarely, one lonely idiot and a couple of nicknames are enough.

XyZspineZyX
05-11-2007, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DVX_immortal:
example why in this forum not exist italian box and italian flags?
Note i see in this forum GERMAN and FRANCE flags
WHY? italian forum is SEPARATE to english ubi forum? WHY?
i know and supposing if english comunity not retain the italian comunity important and ignore that why?
this is one example to esplode me my arrogance and ma nervous temperament and agressive temperament.

God you really have a chip on your shoulder about some percieved wronmg doings against your great country. Imagine if you actually had aircraft to be proud of like the Lancaster or B17 which arent flyable in IL2 then you really would be angry lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wanna bet he was just banned the other day as "Benito Mussolin!"?

mynameisroland
05-11-2007, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by 269GA-Veltro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bigha_86:
Cazzo, figata di discorso...by the way, I think like DVX even if I'm not so aggresive... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The problem is that u, english and winners, doesn't care of us, the italians, just becouse for some idiots that passed to the allies, u think the war for italians where ended in '43. there are a lot of italians that went on fighting for our honor, our contry. And u hate that... so...no SM79, no g55, no italians tank (the bersaglieri and folgore used italian tanks. they were the best in afrika...we kicked ur ***es englishes!). that's it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif


If you kicked Britain and the CommonWealth - not England's - ars1e in the desert why was Rommel and the Africa Korps sent out there to help you boys out?>

All of the British vets from the Desert War I spoke to regarded the average Italian Soldier as a joke compared to one of Rommels lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest you to don't considere this kinde of people and comments, they are not representative of italian community and they only damage us with their stupidity, and first of all the memory of our soldiers because of your reaction.

About italian soldiers, i can only say to you that my grand father had great respect of the brit soldiers because of their courage in battle...and he fought very hard against them. Please don't answer to those offensive post playing the song of the average italian soldiers in North Africa....

My grand father (81mm mortar section commander) and his brother (anti tank cannon) fought very hard there, and the second died when he was 20 because of a Valentine tank. The day before he had destroyed two of them. They fought during the operation Crusader in the Bir El Gobi battle. They were in the "Mussolini's Boys" battalion....if you know what i'm talking about. When you say: "All of the British vets from the Desert War I spoke to regarded the average Italian Soldier as a joke compared to one of Rommels lot" i don't know what are you talking about. This kinde of statement don't tuch me, not my family.

So, here, i'm one of the italians "who can speaks"....and what i say is: don't care about those very stupid and offensive words; please don't accept the gauntlet, not in this way at least. Simple ignore them. If you're Brit, i apologies with you for their words.

@Ivan, please begin to ban these italian trolls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for posting, and thanks for apologising for your compatriot. I am sorry I sunk to his level but I was relaying, honestly, a not very flattering story about Italian soldiers from British soldiers who fought during WW2. These stories stem from my Grandfather and his friends who fought in several different theatres including DDay and Africa, right through Europe until he was part of the Allied forces occupying Austria at the end of the War. I understand that a lot of stories were humorous but I chose this particular one to counter balance the rubbish posted by Bigha_86.

onebox33
05-11-2007, 01:26 PM
i think that the troll is only one person, with different nicks... and he was banned sometimes ago with his real nick. Don't pay attention to his provocations, because this is what he's looking for http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-11-2007, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Gatt59:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
I am American, but I am part Scottish in addition to being part Italian, so you can imagine my temperment

Wew, a hot temper indeed. Ed anche un buon bicchiere immagino http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grappa is a little harsh. I prefer scotch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maraz_6S
05-12-2007, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:


All of the British vets from the Desert War I spoke to regarded the average Italian Soldier as a joke compared to one of Rommels lot.

Try to speak to some vets of 22nd Armoured Brigade (Bir el Gubi), of 3rd Indian Motor Brigade (Rugbet el Atasc), and many other units, and they will tell you a very different story.

If you cannot (not many veterans still alive today unfortunately) you could even READ (!!!) some books as:
Rommel's North Africa Campaign (by Massignani, Greene)
Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts by Ian Walker)

These are among few books that actually study seriously the contribute of Italian soldiers to war, using original Italian documents. Most of other accounts mainly rely on German sources. Germans were very clever to take al successes for themselves (even if there was a strong Italian contribution) and blame their ally for most defeats. I could make a number of examples here.

Apart from some very serious defeats at the beginning of the war, Italian soldiers usually fought bravely even with inferior equipment. Some "elite" divisions (Ariete, Trento, Trieste, Folgore) were actually very effective units (though equipment was never as good as the Germans and the British). In North Africa, more than half of Rommel's troops were Italians, simply he could not have arrived where he did without Italian soldiers.

Maraz

mynameisroland
05-12-2007, 04:00 AM
Maraz without wanting to continue this thread and dig out quotes and statistics I ask one question:

Why were Rommel and the Africa Korps sent there in the first place if the Italian army was capable of dealing with the British Army?

The British forces were greatly outnumbered, 35,000 to 200,000, and only half of the British were combatants. Nevertheless they launched a counter-attack, Operation Compass. It was far more successful than expected and resulted in the surrender of the entire Italian army and the advance of the Allies to El Agheila. The stunning defeat of the Italians did not go unnoticed and soon German troops, the Deutsches Afrikakorps under Rommel (The Desert Fox), were sent in to reinforce them.



When Italy declared war on June 10, 1940 against Britain and France, The British position in North Africa seemed hopelessly outmatched. UK Army General Percival Wavell commanded 40,000 Dominion soldiers caught between 200,000 Italian troops in Libya and 250,000 to the south in Ethiopia and Somaliland.

Wavell made a bold gamble on June 10, sending a small force into Libya to show the flag. This was the opening battle in a long campaign that would frustrate both the Allied and the Axis.

The Italians under Marshal d'Armata Rodolfo Graziani invaded and occupied British Somaliland on August 17, 1940, possibly cutting off American merchant transit through the Red Sea and cutting of the British from India. On September 13, Graziani reluctantly invaded Egypt under pressure from Mussolini.

Wavell sent 30,000 troops on December 9 under UK Army General Richard O'Connor to reclaim Sidi Barrani, Egypt, 65 miles inside Egypt's border with Libya. The Italians had heavily fortified the town, but the British caught them by surprise and took 20,000 prisoners. The enterprising O'Connor then turned the large-scale raid into a full-scale invasion of Libya, taking more prisoners and occupying Tobruk , Benghazi, and the whole of the Libyan province of Cyrenaica. 130,000 Italian prisoners march towards Egypt.

Then, a major shift in the balance of power occurred. Wavell was ordered to cut back his forces and send them to Greece. Hitler sent the Afrika Korps to help the Italians, led by the effective Generalleutnant Erwin Rommel. Rommel arrived on February 12, 1941. Technically under Italian command, Rommel led an armored attack that smashed through the smaller British force, capturing O'Connor and almost all of the British conquests except for the embattled port of Tobruk. The British settled in for a long siege.

SUPERAEREO
05-12-2007, 04:47 AM
If I may be so bold as to say so, I think we should reflect on a few points here:

- Italian troops in general suffered from inferior standards of training, armament, equipment, logistics, communications and especially command compared to their German or enemy counterparts. Italy was not adequately prepared to enter the war in June 1940.

- Considering this it is no surprise that Italian soldiers should have been perceived as being a "softer" opponent by the British and Commonwealth troops facing them in the Western Desert. Individual courage cannot make up for lack of proper training and tactics.

- In spite of this Italian troops did fight bravely on many occasions, and as Maraz reminds us they constituted more than half of the armies commanded by Rommel, which goes to show they could do well when properly led.

- British propaganda was also instrumental in depicting Italian troops as hopelessly outmatched and somehow lily-livered, even if this was certainly not the case. Italians per se are neither more brave or more cowardly than any other nation, but in 1940-43 the nation was ill-prepared for war both economically, militarily and psychologically. Unfortunately a certain prejudice against Italian troops in WW2 still exists in some literature.

- Talking of historical literature, I have started to notice that perhaps the Desert War is not all that well covered in modern texts: most of what was written was published in the 60's and 70's if not earlier, and it is only recently that a few books with a fresher approach to the events of the period have started to appear.

- I hope that we may soon see new books coming out, books which use both British and Italian records as well as German ones, and I hope this is not just wishful thinking on my part.

csThor
05-12-2007, 05:00 AM
- Talking of historical literature, I have started to notice that perhaps the Desert War is not all that well covered in modern texts: most of what was written was published in the 60's and 70's if not earlier, and it is only recently that a few books with a fresher approach to the events of the period have started to appear.

That hits the nail on the head. Maybe we should ask Christer Bergstrm for a series on the Desert Air War comparable to the Black Cross - Red Star line http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Maraz_6S
05-12-2007, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Maraz without wanting to continue this thread and dig out quotes and statistics I ask one question:

Why were Rommel and the Africa Korps sent there in the first place if the Italian army was capable of dealing with the British Army?

The British forces were greatly outnumbered, 35,000 to 200,000, and only half of the British were combatants.

This is risible, you cannot count 200.000 troops when there was NO WAY of taking them to the front line and supplying them. Not enough trucks, not enough supplies. Most of these 200.000 troops were guarding the frontier with Algeria/Tunisia, providing internal security against Senussi bands, etc.

It would be the same as saying that the British had 700.000 men in Middle East in October 1942. Of course Montgomery could not take them all at Alamein!!!

Of course operation Compass was a major defeat for Italy (that is what I was thinking about in my post), but the reaction was not only the dispatch of German troops, but also of better Italian units and equipment, including the Ariete armoured division.

You cannot say that the behaviour of Italian troops was the same after the defeat of Operation Compass. Infact it was quite different and much better, though an average Italian division was always weaker than a German one (not always true, for example the Folgore paratrooper division was thought to be better or equal to the Ramcke Brigade).

What most people do not understand is that, showing no respect for the Italian soldier in WWII, thy also show little or no respect for the thousands of Allied soldiers that were killed by the Italians in WWII. Nobody of them would say that Italian soldiers were a joke, I think.

Maraz

onebox33
05-12-2007, 06:35 AM
What most people do not understand is that, showing no respect for the Italian soldier in WWII, thy also show little
Some people have respect only for themselves http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Italy, during the fascism dictature was breaked deeply from the start and this ended with a kind of civil war (as other countries did...) also many people changed their opinion during the war, because the civilians had to pay a big price to the war
(a different condition from some countries much more lucky on this side... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)
and i think we can agree on the concept that only idiots never change their opinion

to our american friends joking italians on these painful facts...try to figure out an example:
are you happy if somebody jokes americans on american civil war, or on Vietnam, or on your change of opinion about your ex-friends Osama, Saddam or talebans?

mynameisroland
05-12-2007, 07:46 AM
Has anyone ever read that article based on WW2 average troop efficiency ?

It was researched by an ex Israeli Military advisor and he reviewed battles of WW2 combing facts like logistics, manpower, frontline strength, training, artillery suppert - the whole shabbang. He gives the average Wehrmacht soldier an efficiency score of 2-3 / 1 and British and US soldiers roughly 1.5 / 1 and Russia and the rest making up the < 1 score.

Obviously this averages out exceptional units with the dross units to get these figures but it was interesting and impassionate from a Jewish guy who obviously had no reason to groom Nazi lovers egos.

Wish I could remember where I saw it.

Examining Italy's military performance in the Desert War ofcourse it is essential to observe that they were poorly equipped and poorly led for the most part - this is why they are poorly regarded by many. Once you add propaganda , both Allied and German, in to the mix you have a long lasting image of the inferior WW2 Italian soldier. I am not suggesting that morally they were lacking bravery or determination or making a personal slant against any ones relatives. It is however, obvious that the Italian army in general was not as capable in fighting efficiency as the Germans for a number of reasons.

Abraxa
05-13-2007, 02:03 AM
Examining Italy's military performance in the Desert War ofcourse it is essential to observe that they were poorly equipped and poorly led for the most part - this is why they are poorly regarded by many. Once you add propaganda , both Allied and German, in to the mix you have a long lasting image of the inferior WW2 Italian soldier. I am not suggesting that morally they were lacking bravery or determination or making a personal slant against any ones relatives. It is however, obvious that the Italian army in general was not as capable in fighting efficiency as the Germans for a number of reasons.

I totally agree. Plus, in a fast moving frontline enviroment like the desert, the fact that the Italian infantry moved mostly by feet, with little or no mechanized forces makes the scenery and their eficciency even worse.

On the other side. Rommel showed a lot of respect for the Italian soldiers.
While he was amazed by their obsolete equipement (WW1 stuff, in many cases), and had no trust in the higher Italian ranks, he respected the soldiers and considered the Italian elite troops to be at the level of the best German elite troops.

Rickustyit
05-13-2007, 02:32 AM
Sad really... first because of the guy named "Benito Mussolini", and secondly because of some idiot comments made by other international members
(and I'm speechless really...)

Look, the thing that MANY people don't realize is that there wasn't only the Second World War in the entire history of Europe.

The Italian armed forces were unfortunate/underarmed and not wanting to fight that war
Epilogue: they lost battles and campaigns, but that does not mean to insult those who died doing their "duties" and that they didn't want to be there in Albania, North Africa or Russia.

Respect for everyone who served/lost their life is a pivotal point in my personal point of view.
(that many people seems to forget)

In the First World War, the Italian Army defeated , albeit difficultly, the Austrians, 90% all by themselves.

There are other countless examples in EVERY single nation involved...

The Italian States were the backbones of the "Renaissance" in the '500.
They were probably the strongest countries in the world in that period, without counting the Romans.

Montecuccoli won almost every battles while serving in the Austrian armed forces in the '600s

The Italian "Piedmont" region, which was a small state won even against the French in the '700s.

There were tons of losses too, as it is NORMAL for every state, nation , people.

Just please stop this ridicolously bashing against other peoples/nations. It's insulting, depressing and just plain stupid.

As for Benito... his posts speaks better than any comments.

Ciao
Rick

p.s. Oh and btw, the "Gobbo" was handsome!

http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/savoia/sm79_otranto_1941.jpg

Abraxa
05-13-2007, 02:50 AM
Hi Rick, I think that nobody here is really willing to bash our country or to diminish our merits.

Each community has its share of idiots and trolls. Let's just take care of ours http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p.s. and yes, the "Gobbo" is gorgeous http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rickustyit
05-13-2007, 03:37 AM
Ciao Abraxa http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

si si, lo so.

Tante volte anche meglio lasciar perdere. Ma certe volte pi forte di me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Alla prox.

Ciao
Riccardo

tigertalon
05-13-2007, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Rickustyit:
Sad really... first because of the guy named "Benito Mussolini", and secondly because of some idiot comments made by other international members
(and I'm speechless really...)

Look, the thing that MANY people don't realize is that there wasn't only the Second World War in the entire history of Europe.

The Italian armed forces were unfortunate/underarmed and not wanting to fight that war
Epilogue: they lost battles and campaigns, but that does not mean to insult those who died doing their "duties" and that they didn't want to be there in Albania, North Africa or Russia.

Respect for everyone who served/lost their life is a pivotal point in my personal point of view.
(that many people seems to forget)

In the First World War, the Italian Army defeated , albeit difficultly, the Austrians, 90% all by themselves.

There are other countless examples in EVERY single nation involved...

The Italian States were the backbones of the "Renaissance" in the '500.
They were probably the strongest countries in the world in that period, without counting the Romans.

Montecuccoli won almost every battles while serving in the Austrian armed forces in the '600s

The Italian "Piedmont" region, which was a small state won even against the French in the '700s.

There were tons of losses too, as it is NORMAL for every state, nation , people.

Just please stop this ridicolously bashing against other peoples/nations. It's insulting, depressing and just plain stupid.

As for Benito... his posts speaks better than any comments.

Ciao
Rick

p.s. Oh and btw, the "Gobbo" was handsome!



Excellent post! Despite my country and the city I live in now has been chopped apart and occupied by 3 countries including Italy, I remember all the boys on all sides fighting WW2 with same honour and respect.

They fought for what they believe was right, they fought for their country. Let's leave aside why they believed they were right and how strong any side believed it - it's just a simple matter of propaganda. As Goebbels said many years ago, you can make people believe anything you want, if only you repeat the lie long enough.

However, in my personal opinion I cannot pay any respect for those who participated in killing/torturing or making in any other way civilians suffer badly, those who were satisfying their sadistic nature on those who can least defend themselves, regardless of whether they have done it with thousands of ropes and public hanging or death squads/executions (mostly happened on occupied territories), concentration camps with gas and furnaces, or with thousands of bombers (or a single one with A bomb) bombing large cities indiscriminately for purpose that had nothing to do with defeating the country.

"In war young boys kill, but do not know nor really hate eachoter under the direction of leaders that know and hate, but not kill eachother."

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2007, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Rickustyit:
Sad really... first because of the guy named "Benito Mussolini",

Hi Rick

It is my firm beleif that "DVX_immortal" and "Benito Mussolin1" are the same person.

if you take a look at page one, where I mention why the plane in question wasn't modelled, "DVX_immortal" immediately focuses on what I say, although I really said nothing more than "well, here's why some planes aren't in the sim"

It's obvious to me, based on his reply to me combined with his date of membership, that this person was really "Benito Mussolin1". When "Benito Mussolin1" was spamming the boards, I replied several times to his nonsense. The reply "DVX_immortal" gave me is very much like a continuation of something I must have had with him...excpet that "DVX_immortal" and I had never conversed before- that's when I looked at his membership date

So don;t get the feeling that "more" Italians are posting nonsense- in this case, it's the same one, under another name

Ciao http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DVX_immortal
05-13-2007, 07:19 AM
If you respect italian comunity:
1- rectivate Xilon_x account and respect web master ubi- rules remember xilon_x is suspended only two weeks.

2-create in your forum italian flag and italian box for the comunication whit german-france - and england

3-collaboration whit italian comunity to new 3d objects and new question to ww2 story and general briefing for italian campain and england campain ecc. ecc. we italian are good peoples if you not ignore my nation.

stop.

http://www.dii.unisi.it/~alessio/immagini/57ano/MussoliniVinoNero.jpg


example: loock up in the forum NOTE: German forum whit flag and France forum whit flag.....where is the Italian forum? you ignore that? loock in this page http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/26310365

italian forum is separate to england forum? why?
italian nation not important?
why? italina have a just respect because have partecipated to ww2.

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2007, 08:40 AM
Oh, too perfect, Il L'asino!

Almost ike you're on cue http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif "If you have respect for Italian Community, comply with my demands!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Did I mention that DVX_immortal was actually Benito Mussolin1?

Bartolomeo_ita
05-13-2007, 03:02 PM
xilon, plz, die in real life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nimits
05-13-2007, 05:10 PM
3-collaboration whit italian comunity to new 3d objects and new question to ww2 story and general briefing for italian campain and england campain ecc. ecc. we italian are good peoples if you not ignore my nation.

Yeah . . .

I guess Maddox must really hate the Japanese, seeing as how some many important aircraft (Ki-45, Ki-48, P1Y, D4Y, H6K, F1M) are missing, not to mention none of the outstanding IJN heavy cruisers (arguable the best in the world in the 1940s) are in the game . . . Frankly, no theater in this game aside from the Eastern Front is adaquately modeled. Hope and campaign for the SM-79 to your hearts desire, but when you don't get it, realize that half the posters here have a favorite plane or ship they would like to see in the game that they will not get either, and do not take it as a national insult . . .

You already have more Italian planes and campaigns in this game than in any other commercially published title.

And if you are really so dead set on getting your SM 79, check out these folks http://www.medairwar.com/ .

goshikisen
05-13-2007, 06:43 PM
A bit o' model/mesh dustbin nostalgia. Here's the model that was in line for inclusion but didn't make it. Would have made an intersting edition.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/pf5.jpg

FE_pilot
05-13-2007, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
A bit o' model/mesh dustbin nostalgia. Here's the model that was in line for inclusion but didn't make it. Would have made an intersting edition.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/pf5.jpg

I wonder why it was never finished?

Rickustyit
05-14-2007, 01:13 AM
BBB462cid, yes I think he's the same too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Tiger, well said...

True, we still have many Italian warbirds that are not available elsewhere, but it's always nice to dream sometimes about the "Hunch" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Personally, I really have a weird attraction to the Morane Saulnier MS406, and I have always hoped it was going to be inserted in the game, but that was not the case unfortunately.

Cheers,
Rick

joeap
05-14-2007, 03:13 AM
I wish we had more Italian planes, the freeware GWX addon/mod for SH3 had some nice Italian ships including the lovely Littorio class BBs. Yup Med has been forgotten. Greets to my Italian friends, I hear what you're saying about Civil War, speaking as a Greek Canadian we had one in Greece even though both factions were on the same side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Oh and are the mods asleep or what??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

SUPERAEREO
05-14-2007, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by Rickustyit:

Personally, I really have a weird attraction to the Morane Saulnier MS406, and I have always hoped it was going to be inserted in the game, but that was not the case unfortunately.




Same here, hope it will be modelled for BoB/Battle of France...



Originally posted by joeap:

Yup Med has been forgotten.




I, like many others, was hoping that we could have had a Med add-on to re-enact air battles in the Western Desert, Malta, French Afrique du Nord, Greece, Italy and Lebanon/Syria, but unfortunately it was not to be.


Please do not judge the Italian community by the rants of few vocal individuals.

And yes, where are the mods..?

Gatt59
05-14-2007, 04:15 AM
Well, during the last five-six years we saw the introduction of italian aircraft in AcesHigh, Warbirds, IL-2, Targetware's Target Tobruk and now CFS3's MED Airwar.

When I entered the online air combat world about 8 years ago there were none.

Th situation we have now is not so bad, compared to the past. But now we are hungry. AH2 lost about all of their italian customers (about 50 online paying customers) when they realized that the italian a/c development was dead, while WB3 lost them due to the awful sim they have as well.

Modelling nice but little known aircraft of some nations (like France and Italy) is a nice way to make a lot of online and offline customers. I mean the D520, the MS406, the Bloch MB, the Reggiane series, the SM.79 ...

AH2, WB3 and even IL-2 have a lot of "hanger queens". A more differentiated plane set (among different nations involved) would have brought the same work load for developers but much more customers.

Within a year we'll have another BoB sim with a/c of only two countries. A MED simulation (from North Africa to the invasion of Italy) would have modeled a/c and skins from England and Commonwealth, Free France and Vichy, USA, Italy and Germany. From the Cr42 biplane to the P-51 and 109K-4, from the SM.79 to the B-24. From A/G action in North Africa to the anti-ship action (convoy battles), from the dogfights over Malta and Sicily to the high altitude bombing against North Italy and South Germany.

Ok, ok, its enuff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

SUPERAEREO
05-14-2007, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Gatt59:


Within a year we'll have another BoB sim with a/c of only two countries. A MED simulation (from North Africa to the invasion of Italy) would have modeled a/c and skins from England and Commonwealth, Free France and Vichy, USA, Italy and Germany. From the Cr42 biplane to the P-51 and 109K-4, from the SM.79 to the B-24. From A/G action in North Africa to the anti-ship action (convoy battles), from the dogfights over Malta and Sicily to the high altitude bombing against North Italy and South Germany.




Exactly my thoughts, and they were posted here some time ago.

Mind you, BoB should include the Cr.42, G.50 and Br.20 of the CAI in Belgium...

Gatt59
05-14-2007, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
Exactly my thoughts, and they were posted here some time ago.
Mind you, BoB should include the Cr.42, G.50 and Br.20 of the CAI in Belgium...

Exactly: "mind you".

Message #1 for 1C and UBI: "if you include one or more (FLYABLE) italian CAI expedition aircraft in the forthcoming BoB sim you will get some hundreds customers more in Italy".

Message #1 for 1C and UBI: "if you include some (FLYABLE) Battle of France aircraft like the D520 or Morane in the forthcoming BoB (just as a little pre-BoB chapter) you'll get a LOT of french customers".

Lets see.

P.S.: the fun to fly a G.50bis or even a Cr42 over the channel is worth the danger of being shot down like a sitting duck, you know.

csThor
05-14-2007, 05:30 AM
Personally I dislike the "watering can" approach you're proposing, Gatt59. I prefer a solid, thought-through package with the necessary historical types, maps, objects and campaigns. Just shelling out a handful of planes per nation without the necessary historical background is going to end in the same "dogfight toy" kind of additions the Il-2 line has been notorious for.

mynameisroland
05-14-2007, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Abraxa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Examining Italy's military performance in the Desert War ofcourse it is essential to observe that they were poorly equipped and poorly led for the most part - this is why they are poorly regarded by many. Once you add propaganda , both Allied and German, in to the mix you have a long lasting image of the inferior WW2 Italian soldier. I am not suggesting that morally they were lacking bravery or determination or making a personal slant against any ones relatives. It is however, obvious that the Italian army in general was not as capable in fighting efficiency as the Germans for a number of reasons.

I totally agree. Plus, in a fast moving frontline enviroment like the desert, the fact that the Italian infantry moved mostly by feet, with little or no mechanized forces makes the scenery and their eficciency even worse.

On the other side. Rommel showed a lot of respect for the Italian soldiers.
While he was amazed by their obsolete equipement (WW1 stuff, in many cases), and had no trust in the higher Italian ranks, he respected the soldiers and considered the Italian elite troops to be at the level of the best German elite troops. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Italian Army were trained and equipped to fight in Italys northern regions, like mountain troops - thanks to old Mussolini they ended up fighting a mechanised war in the North African desert.

Gatt59
05-14-2007, 05:36 AM
Thor,

does adding a couple of italian a/c (historically correct since the CAI was there) and a couple of french a/c in the first chapters of the BoB career, say may-june 1940, call it a prologue, mean a waterin' can approach?

Are you jokin?

mynameisroland
05-14-2007, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by DVX_immortal:
If you respect italian comunity:
1- rectivate Xilon_x account and respect web master ubi- rules remember xilon_x is suspended only two weeks.

2-create in your forum italian flag and italian box for the comunication whit german-france - and england

3-collaboration whit italian comunity to new 3d objects and new question to ww2 story and general briefing for italian campain and england campain ecc. ecc. we italian are good peoples if you not ignore my nation.

stop.

http://www.dii.unisi.it/~alessio/immagini/57ano/MussoliniVinoNero.jpg


example: loock up in the forum NOTE: German forum whit flag and France forum whit flag.....where is the Italian forum? you ignore that? loock in this page http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/26310365

italian forum is separate to england forum? why?
italian nation not important?
why? italina have a just respect because have partecipated to ww2.

****** alert !

Weeeep ! Weeeep ! Weeeep !

Evacuate the thread

csThor
05-14-2007, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Gatt59:
Thor,

does adding a couple of italian a/c (historically correct since the CAI was there) and a couple of french a/c in the first chapters of the BoB career, say may-june 1940, call it a prologue, mean a waterin' can approach?

Are you jokin?

The CAI has a place in the BoB, because it was historically present and because it does offer material for a reasonable historical campaign. But to add, say a C.200 just because it's another historically important italian type would be wrong in the relation to the BoB - the C.200 did not serve there. It doesn't match the rest of the furniture.
To add a few french aircraft just for the sake of adding them would be a "watering can" case.

It is rumored (or even known) that the BoB map will not include german soil and will end just below Paris. Seeing this the map is not really useful if you want to make a decent, historical campaign stretching from May 10 to the French surrender, because you would have to put german units on airstart for the first phase (or for good - most bomber units never left their german bases for the BoF) and you'd have to cut out "Case Red", the second phase of the BoF for a lack of maps. Unless you're willing to sacrifice usefulness and playability for all kinds of users, you always need to see additional planes within the confines of what the game does currently simulate (or what it can simulate). We've had this "watering can" ever since Il-2 came out with planes missing maps to use them without constraints.

As you may have noticed I haven't mentioned 3rd Party developments. But that is my personal choice - I simply dismiss them, because I have been burned by modding in the past. Burnt child dreads the fire.

Gatt59
05-14-2007, 01:50 PM
No one mentioned the need of the C.200 in BoB becouse it simply wasnt there, as you say. I was referring to one or more of the italian a/c involved: the G.50bis, the BR.20M, the Cr42 and just some Cant Z1007s. And someone on the other BBS mentioned some of them will be there. I sincerely hope so. It simply would make the sim more interesting for more customers.

As far as french a/c are concerned I dont know what map will be modeled. So I have just posted what I think should be in developers and distributors mind: make the sim more interesting modelling just some a/c and a couple of more maps. You'll make happy some thousands of french guys/customers. Is it too much? Then dont mind.

JG53Frankyboy
05-15-2007, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Gatt59:
No one mentioned the need of the C.200 in BoB becouse it simply wasnt there, as you say. I was referring to one or more of the italian a/c involved: the G.50bis, the BR.20M, the Cr42 ................

just to ad, these planes will be in SoW:BoB from its release on. from the Br.20 and G.50 were even already WIP pictures of their cockpits showed.

269GA-Veltro
05-15-2007, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gatt59:
No one mentioned the need of the C.200 in BoB becouse it simply wasnt there, as you say. I was referring to one or more of the italian a/c involved: the G.50bis, the BR.20M, the Cr42 ................

just to ad, these planes will be in SoW:BoB from its release on. from the Br.20 and G.50 were even already WIP pictures of their cockpits showed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and i would like see also a WIP for the E4 and a CR-42 cockpit (this one had seen more action than G-50 in the BoB).

JG53Frankyboy
05-15-2007, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by 269GA-Veltro:
............Yes, and i would like see also a WIP for the E4 and a CR-42 cockpit (this one had seen more action than G-50 in the BoB).

they can use what ever 109 cockpit(actually canopy frame http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) they want - when the 109 will have MG-FF/M in its wings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

and im with you with the Cr.42 , hopefully they will make it flyable too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

269GA-Veltro
05-15-2007, 03:18 AM
He he Franky...you know it....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif....we need those MG-FF/M for the da.n Spitfire! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We'll see.....

Gatt59
05-15-2007, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gatt59:
No one mentioned the need of the C.200 in BoB becouse it simply wasnt there, as you say. I was referring to one or more of the italian a/c involved: the G.50bis, the BR.20M, the Cr42 ................

just to ad, these planes will be in SoW:BoB from its release on. from the Br.20 and G.50 were even already WIP pictures of their cockpits showed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good news http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I hope they have got all the documents needed to model the right plane version in the right way.

Bigha_86
05-15-2007, 10:36 AM
hey men!! what happened while I was away?!so many topics!! maybe I've been misunderstood... first of all, I'm not DVX. then what I wanted to say it's about the same of Maraz_6S. I don't want to offend the other armies, but just that we aren't considered as we should be... rommel said: "the german soldier shocked the world. The italian bersagliere soldier shocked the german soldier." And my grandfa was a bersagliere. He doesn't hate english, but he lost his best friend becouse of the english airfield attack on vicenza. And had some psicological problems... but that's the war... and he's still fascist. it means he loves italy and that it's not racist...

About airplanes, I think that the italian and french comunities are not considered as well... just few airplanes, and not important theaters... like Malta, North Africa, Greek, invasion of Italy and the french partisan army battles.... That's it. I hope that if there will be add ons for BoB, there will be one of that theaters... with rights italian and french airplanes. And no super invicibles-super turns spitz... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Last thing. Please consider our comunity in the forums... DVX was a little bit right about that...

Ciao!

269GA-Veltro
05-15-2007, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Bigha_86:
Last thing. Please consider our comunity in the forums... DVX was a little bit right about that...

What about french guys? They are still waiting for a french fighter....
What about BR-20 and G-50 flyable in Oleg's BoB? And we don't know....but we could have also a CR-42.....

After BoB we'll have probably a MED sim, with Malta and Sicily....

I think we are more than considered here.

Please stop with this kidding. DVX is only a stupid troll and he must be bunned.

Period.

Bigha_86
05-15-2007, 12:09 PM
Veltro!!u are just talking about something "possible"... I don't feel considereted... sta tranquillo, non serve prendersela...

GerritJ9
05-15-2007, 01:45 PM
I think the CR.42 is a more than likely inclusion- otherwise why was SaQSon asking for stencil details for the CR.42 some time ago??????

269GA-Veltro
05-15-2007, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
I think the CR.42 is a more than likely inclusion- otherwise why was SaQSon asking for stencil details for the CR.42 some time ago??????

We have seen also the 3D model, but nothing about a cockpit....so it could be only AI and it would be an historicall error according to the CR-42 actions (combat) during the BoB. CR-42 fought there, G-50 didn't....flew but not fought.

mynameisroland
05-16-2007, 08:00 AM
Personally speaking I hope that Oleg concentrates on German and RAF types for SoW.

In IL2 the Hurricanes and Spitfire Vbs seem to be taken from Russian performance data - even the IX uses Russian data iirc although it seems pretty spot on.

It would be nice to have British specifications for British planes given that SoW will initially grow from BoB outwards rather than the Eastern Front outwards as IL2 did.

Better to get important planes like the Hurricane, Spitfire, Bf 109, Bf 110, Ju 88, He 111, Do 17, Wellington, Blenheim ect right first of all, then add obscure types like Defiant, Whirlwind ect before we go anywhere near Italian fighters.

I really am looking forward to a proper MED theatre after that or even a France and Low countries addon. But I pray that Oleg sorts out the most important countries for BoB FIRST before he turns his attention to squeezing a flyable CR.42 in to the game.

269GA-Veltro
05-16-2007, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Personally speaking I hope that Oleg concentrates on German and RAF types for SoW.

In IL2 the Hurricanes and Spitfire Vbs seem to be taken from Russian performance data - even the IX uses Russian data iirc although it seems pretty spot on.

It would be nice to have British specifications for British planes given that SoW will initially grow from BoB outwards rather than the Eastern Front outwards as IL2 did.

Better to get important planes like the Hurricane, Spitfire, Bf 109, Bf 110, Ju 88, He 111, Do 17, Wellington, Blenheim ect right first of all, then add obscure types like Defiant, Whirlwind ect before we go anywhere near Italian fighters.

I really am looking forward to a proper MED theatre after that or even a France and Low countries addon. But I pray that Oleg sorts out the most important countries for BoB FIRST before he turns his attention to squeezing a flyable CR.42 in to the game.

100% agree about this point. Personally i'm still waiting for an E4 update.

mynameisroland
05-16-2007, 11:49 AM
Im being very selfish and want a flyable Boulton Paul Defiant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NDS_Syb.
06-03-2007, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Im being very selfish and want a flyable Boulton Paul Defiant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You are not alone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

What I love from day one this sim came on the market is it ability to offer us a change to fly The "Forgotten Planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif from all fronts and theatres. Not to mention the first opportunity to fly the Russian types it all started out whith. Thank you mr. OlegSAN