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JimmyGiro
10-21-2005, 10:02 AM
...That when scientists cluster 128 desktop computers together, they end up with a super computer that can do longrange weather forcasts, predict three body orbits, and make the tea; whilst 128 gaming computers 'clustered' on the net, can barely crawl along as you shoot down a Messer whilst flying through a static cloud, with your second cup of cold tea in ones rsi grip ?

In the future (not so far away), will it be likely for a software group as yours, to develop a software system for clustered computers that act as a super computer host. The idea being that the super host then takes the burden of the gamesworld physics and events, leaving the hundreads of client computers (owned by greatful fee paying clients) free to compute the minimal ammount of game for the client side?

p1ngu666
10-21-2005, 10:16 AM
latancy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

BaldieJr
10-21-2005, 10:19 AM
Eh?

So clients are server also? Two processes? Round trip latency would kill it.

Plus, if you put too much onto the client you get ratbastards.

neural_dream
10-21-2005, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by JimmyGiro:
...That when scientists cluster 128 desktop computers together, they end up with a super computer that can do longrange weather forcasts, predict three body orbits, and make the tea; whilst 128 gaming computers 'clustered' on the net, can barely crawl ...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif The difference is that these 128 computers do not communicate constantly. They get a task and deliver the results after some time, but they don't have any specific network QoS requirements. Games do. And they are quite demanding.

crazyivan1970
10-21-2005, 10:38 AM
Isn`t it one of the concept MS or Sony were planning to intorduce for their new generation of console hardware?

IvanoBulo
10-21-2005, 10:41 AM
It is not nessecery to compute all events, just complex weather calculations to generate real dynamic and realistic weather effects. And then client computers will use it to calculate flight physics. It won't require fast communication beetwen client and server because it is not nessecery to change weather every 10 or 100 milliseconds.

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-21-2005, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Isn`t it one of the concept MS or Sony were planning to intorduce for their new generation of console hardware?

Somewhat, but they both went against the User's recommendations and are developing a completely new hardware config that programmers will have to learn from scratch, thus delaying most of the real benfits.


John Carmack said:

"If you take code designed for an x86 that's running on a Pentium or Athlon or something, and you run it on either of the PowerPC's from these new consoles, it'll run at about half the speed of a modern state-of-the-art system."

...AND


AnandLal Shimpi wrote:
"In other words, the PowerPC cores in the Xbox 360 running the type of code developers are used to throwing at them don't perform very well. At the same time, getting better performance out of them will require a fairly steep learning curve-a curve that may have developers not surpassing the point of diminishing returns until the next generation of consoles are ready."


TB

Jetbuff
10-21-2005, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Eh?

So clients are server also? Two processes? Round trip latency would kill it.

Plus, if you put too much onto the client you get ratbastards.
Nail, hammer, head...

Remember those "super-computers" you're talking about don't have to generate the data in real-time or respond to real-time, multi-user inputs.

VW-IceFire
10-21-2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Isn`t it one of the concept MS or Sony were planning to intorduce for their new generation of console hardware?
Sony...with the Cell Processor...and it didn't work out quite that way.

LEXX_Luthor
10-21-2005, 05:08 PM
I remember that, and everybody saying Cell chips would do everything and save the Earth.

You don't want "real" dynamic weather, that would take a supercomputer to calculate in real time. You want static weather that changes state according to a behavior table about once every minute or so. That would have no resource problems. If you actually go out and *watch* weather, you would see what I mean. Weather is slow -- a much slower time scale than the time scale found in The Dogfight(tm).

WWMaxGunz
10-21-2005, 07:07 PM
I wrote Oleg about if FB could run in AI-only mode (ground as well as air) to run on LAN's,
such a setup could be a super server or home offline macro-system and support much smarter
and more AI without need for having 6+ Gz CPU's and twice+ the RAM. I emailed him that long
ago in months. I don't think he understood, he wrote back that online the load is shared
which is very good but as noted it has latency... lag.

Simply if some mode of the game could run without graphics or input or devicelink or user
system load except for communications then cheaper, slower PC's without expensive graphics
cards could be connected to LAN and take up much load. Even people could run such a mode
on a good or not so great PC connected to internet and serve to support coop games when
they are not actively playing or if they have broadband and an extra PC. Such a thing would
go over with squads as generally some members will do all they can and have the extra.

Mostly though I imagine the programmer of AI seeing the idea of having a whole PC just for
the AI code to play in without user taking up most of the resources. Even older PC, AI gets
more. Special mode, AI checks and opens up -- maybe for BoB and later it could learn moves.

BaldieJr
10-21-2005, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Eh?

So clients are server also? Two processes? Round trip latency would kill it.

Plus, if you put too much onto the client you get ratbastards.
Nail, hammer, head...

Remember those "super-computers" you're talking about don't have to generate the data in real-time or respond to real-time, multi-user inputs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you predict prediction?

MrQBerrt
10-24-2005, 04:08 PM
It's actually not a bad idea. If there's one process intensive thing that has to be calculated and is the same for all users (can't think of a good example, but we'll use weather for now). That processing load can be shared by all clients, the parts uploaded to the server and the whole finished work downloaded to all clients as needed. If that's what your talking about Jimmy, then its a good idea. Though I imagine if it has useful applications in IL2, then its already being done, and it might not have useful applications in IL-2. What process intensive calculation do all clients share? Don't say physics, because my plane has its physics and yours has your physics (so this is already done for physics in a way). I'd say weather is a no go as the big part there is rendering it, not creating it. Any other ideas?

MrQBerrt
10-24-2005, 04:13 PM
Here's another way to think about when this is useful. When 100 computers are linked to calculate a complex thing such a protein folding or weather prediction adding computer # 101 adds very little overhead to the system. Sure there is a bit more memory required of the server and a bit more bandwidth requirements, but not much. However, in this case, adding another client to a game adds at least as much complexity to the system as the extra computer can make up for.

In other words, the calculations for protein folding would be the same with 1 or 100 computers, but it is not the same thing to have a flight sim with 1 or 100 planes.

Jetbuff
10-24-2005, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Do you predict prediction?
Sorry, you lost me on that one Baldie, what are you on about?

WWMaxGunz
10-24-2005, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by MrQBerrt:
What process intensive calculation do all clients share?


Would about 16+ AA guns firing and all the shells trajectories plus vehicles around an
airfield do for starts? Or even just the ground AI end of tracking and firing angles.
If the client end only had to put on a lightshow of AA while the server handled the
precision of the shots and told the client when it got hit, where and how, it would
take a load off right about where the client might now be pausing and no longer able
to quickly receive and send packets, CPU/process lag.

JimmyGiro
10-25-2005, 11:10 AM
Your points are well taken MrQBerrt, I indeed had in mind all the game world other than the clients planes.

Although I kept open the idea that all the client machines be coopted (like the borg), or whether you have say 8 machines in the same locality, clustered to act as a coherent super computer host.

The latter would be responsible for say: the weather, the ground forces (AAA, tanks, ships, ai planes etc), all the stray shells and bullets. The clients then need only communicate that part of the game world which their game entity is close to, i.e. proximity filters by the super host ensure you the client only see what will effect you.

This leaves the client only required to render what they see and what they do.