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darkhorizon11
01-05-2005, 04:53 PM
After over a year of playing 1c games I can claim nothing but enjoyment. Well almost.

The only thing I dislike are the flight (or lack thereof) characteristics of the aircraft when its airfoil is in a stalled state. I don't want to turn this into a tekkie thread so I'll avoid any math mumbo jumbo. Case in point, this needs to be fixed, please.

I love all the new aircraft, groud objects, aircraft carriers, AA gunnery options, whatever. But, this is the single "real problem", aircraft flight characteristics inaccuracies pale in comparison to this problem. In theory, since every single stall characteristic, except for the bi-planes is inaccurate, every flight model for every aircraft, is inaccurate.

There's nothing I hate more than when I'm banked 70 degrees TnB and in COORDINATED flight when I pull past the critical angle of attack and WHAM, flat spin. Thats laughable, aircraft don't do that. Even the RLM in its final desperate days of 1945 would never have approved an airframe that violently jerks into a flat spin everytime you stall it out.

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel for this problem, are there any joystick settings I can use for my Wingman Extreme Digital I can use that will dull down this problem? I'm not looking for a complex stall characteristic model on the next patch, just simply a fix so the plane does a generic stall. Especially for the straight wing aircraft.

darkhorizon11
01-05-2005, 04:53 PM
After over a year of playing 1c games I can claim nothing but enjoyment. Well almost.

The only thing I dislike are the flight (or lack thereof) characteristics of the aircraft when its airfoil is in a stalled state. I don't want to turn this into a tekkie thread so I'll avoid any math mumbo jumbo. Case in point, this needs to be fixed, please.

I love all the new aircraft, groud objects, aircraft carriers, AA gunnery options, whatever. But, this is the single "real problem", aircraft flight characteristics inaccuracies pale in comparison to this problem. In theory, since every single stall characteristic, except for the bi-planes is inaccurate, every flight model for every aircraft, is inaccurate.

There's nothing I hate more than when I'm banked 70 degrees TnB and in COORDINATED flight when I pull past the critical angle of attack and WHAM, flat spin. Thats laughable, aircraft don't do that. Even the RLM in its final desperate days of 1945 would never have approved an airframe that violently jerks into a flat spin everytime you stall it out.

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel for this problem, are there any joystick settings I can use for my Wingman Extreme Digital I can use that will dull down this problem? I'm not looking for a complex stall characteristic model on the next patch, just simply a fix so the plane does a generic stall. Especially for the straight wing aircraft.

VW-IceFire
01-05-2005, 05:19 PM
Wow....you flat spin on stall? Thats pretty wild. In this game, I find you can even master, on certain planes, riding the stalls edge to continue your turn for just that bit longer.

Fennec_P
01-05-2005, 06:16 PM
I find it kind of strange too, the severe yaw when there is no sideslip (ie. both wings should stall at the same time, and the nose should simply drop)

But considering that this snappyness has been a feature in pretty much every (real) WWII flight sim, and is verified by people who haev flown the real planes, I am inclined to believe that this behavior is warranted. Even if I don't personally understand the mechanics of why it does this.

Corsair9
01-05-2005, 06:25 PM
Darkhorizon has a good point. NONE of the aircraft in this sim really stalls at all, they just spin. And a lot of them flat spin at that. If you stall under G, you must instantly "unload" i.e., let go of the stick and let it recover or a spin will establish itself.

Some aircraft did have a wicked snap into a spin characteristic under G load like the FW-190, but others did not.

It'd be nice to see this fixed.

CowboyTodd41
01-05-2005, 06:37 PM
I thought about this one time and decided to try to pull some hammerheads to test it out. Everytime I reached the apex of my climb to begin my tailslide, the plane snapped off to the left or right. If I remember right I was using a FW-190 and a Yak-3.

tascaso
01-05-2005, 07:01 PM
Eegads...tech talk is fun...when stalling an aircraft straight up (i.e. not in a turn) you will not see the violent tendencies inherent in the design. Hence if you pitch up and maintain X degrees of AOA...while keeping the ball centered with rudder you will get both wings stalling at the same time. Now will one wing stall before the other depends on many variables...a very benign staller will simply drop the nose while developing a sink rate. Like an Aeronca Chief, the nose will merely bob up and down in the stall whilst losing altitude.

Now if you are in a high G turn and enter an accelerated stall you have to take a look at where the CG loads are interacting with the aircraft and the stall characteristics will be quite different...maybe even really nasty...it could snap into a spin.

Many GA aircraft are placarded for stalls only to be done straight ahead! Many older aircraft designs were not thorougly tested in all flight regimes such that many designs had extreme behaviours at the far edges of the design envelope. I am not by any means knowledgable in WWII aircraft...I am somewhat knowledgeable in GA....Cessna, Piper, Maule, Beechcraft, Vans. Many GA aircraft can be stalled but the AOM will tell you that you must recover and not to let a spin develop!

So the radical departure or accelerated stalls found in our Dear Sim could be realistic! Then again maybe not! If any P51, or P47 drivers care to chime in on the more radical aspects of the flight envelope then that would be refreshing. Again, I repeat it is really scary to take these aircraft out to the extreme edge...they will bite!

Toodle Pip
123_Tony_123VEF

TX-EcoDragon
01-05-2005, 07:22 PM
I have to say that I could only partially agree in that no amount of opposite rudder is enough to prevent a wing from dropping once it starts to drop, when at the power off 1G stall (where the stall behavior is as tame as it will ever be in that particular aircraft) but having said that, most all of these warbirds will in fact stall with a rather aggressive drop despite being in coordinated flight and even at the 1G stall! Most aircraft I have time in, even the extremely responsive dedicated aerobatic types like the Extra, Edge, and Pitts will drop a wing when performing an accelerated stall no matter what the rudder is doing. . . only the severity and direction will differ according to rudder position. (of the sim included aircraft I have only stalled the P-51D)Now, IMHO the forward stick elevator response is very poor in all the aircraft in the sim, and may play a part here. What I mean is that in the instance where the right wing drops in an upright accelerated stall I usually need to pop the elevator nearly full forward and full left rudder, whereas in the real world I would only release backpressure on the stick (ie the stick will move towards, but not all the way to, neutral) and the rudder would depend on the type of aircraft, but generally aircraft that are not particularly designed to be aerobatic do not have loads of rudder authority and will usually require a fair amount of it in this instance, though in some just releasing elevator pressure (when coordinated) is enough. So in that situation the recovery may require more aggressive response by the sim pilot than a real-world one to prevent the wing drop from transitioning to a spin. . . with one big exception. . . an accelerated stall usually happens at a high power setting and lower speeds, and of course elevated G loadings (on already high wingloaded desings) and in these warbirds the rolling moment that is a result of the prop is rather pronounced so a left wing drop will happen most of the time, and will probably be severe enough that a power reduction is required in addition to a boot full of a right rudder to prevent a spin, even with this course of action a roll of 90 degrees all the way up to inverted may be encountered! In my judgment the 1G stall (or rather the lack of it), the delayed spin auto-rotation recovery after recovery inputs, and certain aircraft that have peculiar spiral/spin character when attempting recovery inputs (like the Ta-152. . .eeeek), are more of a problem than the accelerated stall. . . but that's just my take on it.

There is a good example of a Corsair at the 1G stall break at time 12:30 and after in the video seen here the Corsair rolls about 160 degrees:

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/realg2/F4URV1056.ram

DarkCanuck420
01-05-2005, 08:40 PM
Im a master at stalling and spinning, all you have to do is...oh right u wanted a fix for this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Ive also go a logitec joystick x3d pro though.
and i read somewhere not to make your max pitch input higher then 93

i got my settings from a forum member here, for my specific joystick.
my pitch settings are:
Pitch: 25 31 38 45 51 58 65 72 79 88
================================================

Jungmann
01-05-2005, 10:03 PM
P-51 drivers I talked to always mentioned the nasty snap at the accelerated stall. Load up the wing and pull too tight a turn--at any speed--and the 51 would snap and spin. The spin recovery on the 51 was not that swift either, so lots of pilots in combat--and even more in stateside training--auguered in from what must have seemed to them an ordinary maneuver.

Applying comparisons from general aviation aircraft to warbirds isn't much use. Warbirds were designed to be inherently instable in all axes--that's what made them maneuverable. GA aircraft are designed for safety, to recover on their own--i.e., get your bloody hands and feet off the controls--from unusual attitudes.

I, for one, appreciate the stall coding in the FMs, and tip my hat to Oleg and his tovarichi for the work they did.

Cheers,

Tully__
01-05-2005, 10:55 PM
From a flight modelling standpoint, edge of envelop flight (stalls & spins, Vne, compression effects etc...) are the hardest to model. They require more detailed mathematical modelling and more CPU power to model accurately than flight modes well within the envelop. While there are admittedly simplifications in place in this game, the current state of affairs is a huge improvement over stall/spin behaviour in the original IL2 Sturmovik. As average user PC performance has increased during the life of this series, the modelling has been refined to give stall/spin performance closer to real life.

In order to accurately model this behaviour the modelling would have to be done at a level of detail beyond the power of current PC's even if you left out all the graphics, AI, ballistics and other modelling going on in the game. Given that this is the only PC combat flight sim I'm aware of that actually attempts to model it rather than just using scripted stall/stall recovery, I think it does pretty well. The fact that behaviour is improving with time and available PC performance tells me that:
a. The developers are aware of the issue; AND
b. The developers are aware of the impact game performance that would result if they attempted truly detailed flight modelling in this area of the flight envelop.

Let's face, we should be striving to avoid stalls & spins anyway. I find the rather more savage than RL stall characteristics on some aircraft to be good incentive to learn to fly my aircraft up to but not outside their limits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Wilburnator
01-05-2005, 11:30 PM
That kind of thing was happening to me when I got my X52. I sorted it out with sensitivity settings in the config.ini. I still spin now and then , but that's just my bad flying. It's not a frequent occurence.

LEXX_Luthor
01-05-2005, 11:35 PM
Real life WW2 pilots were told not to stall.

Stalling is a favorite Hobby of computer flight simmers.

Learn not to stall. Problem Fixed. The approximations we have now are good enough for combat sim, maybe not Peacetime civil sim. Stalling in combat means you already failed your Air Combat Dogfight.

Blackdog5555
01-06-2005, 01:36 AM
Oleg has a thread going on in his Ready Room about this problem and possible fix/patch..Lexx makes a good point but for me i dont get enough input from the game prior to stall. It would be nice if the their was a better visual cue prior to the stall. And the F6F shouldnt flat spin! see zenos warbirds. cheers!

HotelBushranger
01-06-2005, 03:57 AM
I too have noticed this frequent stalling. I mean, yeah they did stall if you pushed them too far, but like, i would just turn and wham an unrecoverable flat spin. Just gets frustrating in a dogfight to spin out of a kill chance.

Tully__
01-06-2005, 05:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
Oleg has a thread going on in his Ready Room about this problem and possible fix/patch..Lexx makes a good point but for me i dont get enough input from the game prior to stall... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are several clues to imminent stall:

1. Sound. You can hear turbulence over the wings just prior to full stall.
2. Visual. In the early stages of stall you often have some visibile vibration.
3. If you have a force feedback joystick correctly set up, it will vibrate some as you approach stall.

Even with all these clues, if you're totally hamfisted or have a strong tendancy to overcontrolling, you can still cause an accelerated stall without experiencing any of the warnings. Remember that aircraft have a lot more freedom of movement than ground vehicles and don't respond well to sudden large changes in control input. Be smooth, make large changes in control input gradually rather than snatching at the controls.