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EmKen
08-23-2005, 03:58 PM
The record of the AVG is outstanding in overcoming overwhelming odds. We combat flight simmers recognise that material differences should be overcome by a greater combat spirit. What was their motivation, do you think?

Emken

EmKen
08-23-2005, 04:01 PM
Sorry, should qualify statemet
The AVG knocked down 296 to 12 losses. posts passim

Maple_Tiger
08-23-2005, 04:05 PM
Proubly because the have free softwarehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



http://www.grisoft.com/doc/1

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-23-2005, 04:09 PM
I think with certain Americans that there is an inbuilt desire to prove themselves the best at what they do. This combined with the environment that they operated in attracting men with a necessary spirit of adventure and of "putting things right" would surely contribute to the unit's effectiveness. There were, I'm led to believe, financial rewards for shooting down Japanese aircraft - but I don't think that this was the major motivation for most pilots. They had exceptionally good groundcrew, too.

Chuck Older is probably not far away, I'm sure he'll be only too keen to give you an expert opinion.

Just treat this as a bump to keep you near the top.

Chuck_Older
08-23-2005, 04:16 PM
They were all combat trained military fliers, trained by the US government as warriors of the US Army Air Corps and US Navy (which included the Marines at the time)

They were almost all young, so the thought of world travel at a time when world travel wasn't common was intriguing

They were idealistic, from their upbringing and military training

They were not stupid; most of the US Armed Forces could see that a major war was brewing

They were Patriotic to the US cause in Peace and War, otherwise they wouldn't have been in uniform before December 7th 1941 (AVG training was well underway before December of '41)

Not all were fighter pilots; this stint in the AVG guaranteed they would fly fighters. Their contracts indicated they could return to their parent service when the contract was up at their former rank (they had to resign).

Many people comment about the mercenary aspect of their deal with the Chinese government, in a way which is negative, to somehow suggest a base motive. I have an opinion on that.

Those people are ignorant, small minded, pathetic whelps. First of all, it's interesting to see who put up the money, training, men, and machines for this- the USA. Second, if my memory serves, the "Chinese" funds for pay provided were actually from the US. Next, the AVG pilots (not to mention support staff!) didn't sign up to kill their fellow man and get paid for it. The pay was an enticement, not a primary reason. In addition to that, FDR made a Presidential Order to make the AVG a reality. they were less a mercenary force than a considered, wise first move in a war that the US knew it would be embroiled in. When the President of the USA makes an executive order to allow these men to leave active military service to join the AVG, you can't tell me the US government wasn't involved. The AVG men (nurses, too!), pilots and support staff, essentially just traded in their old postings and uniforms for new ones

China was virtually defenseless against the Japanese. Japanese bombers flew unoppossed time after time after time after time, bombing civilian targets without remorse or letup. This says nothing of their Army's rapacious and muderous rampages in China. Word didn't travel as fast back then as it does today, but this news did make it to the ears of the US government, from Claire Chennault, who actually gave the War Department info on the A6M before Decmber 7th. Chennault had been in China since '37 and saw the- and I don't use the word lightly- atrocities committed against Chinese civilians

This info was not against the rules for AVG recruiters to use as tools to recruit pilots, and they did use it. Propaganda to some, it also happened to be the truth

For the reasons I gave above, these young men left their parent Military service to maybe get killed in a foreign land.

All I can say about that is God Bless America for making young men who would do this. The Eagle Sqaudrons were similar but were in a more rigidly military organization. These men weren't shadowy ne'er-do-wells out for a buck. They were heroes, every last one who actually served, from the riggers, fitters, armorers, and so on right up to the top

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-23-2005, 04:32 PM
What did I tell you?

Thanks for the info' Chuck. Nicely written too. Posted a link for Japanese pilot skins in the Skinner's forum for you - us Clash fans got to stick together http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
08-23-2005, 04:34 PM
now only if we had the claude and ki27 with a china scenario map. The online mountainous map is pretty good for simulating china and valleys with bridge crossings.

Chuck_Older
08-23-2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
What did I tell you?

Thanks for the info' Chuck. Nicely written too. Posted a link for Japanese pilot skins in the Skinner's forum for you - us Clash fans got to stick together http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/virtualolder2.jpg

Thanks!

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-23-2005, 05:27 PM
You just might have inspired me, Chuck - I'm getting tired of Sky Captain....

<S!>

Majormajor-01
08-23-2005, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by EmKen:
The record of the AVG is outstanding in overcoming overwhelming odds. We combat flight simmers recognise that material differences should be overcome by a greater combat spirit. What was their motivation, do you think?

Emken

Not to mention the 100 dollars in gold they got for each Japaneese aircraft they shot down.....

Majormajor-01
Jamming Pentagon computers for over 60 years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-23-2005, 05:39 PM
Yeah, we mentioned that. See above.

Jumoschwanz
08-23-2005, 07:29 PM
If you read Pappy Boyington's autobiography, it sounds like almost a con-job Chennault used to get them to go over there. He made it out to be a real easy and fun job with lots of cash to be made.

S!

Jumoschwanz

shinden1974
08-23-2005, 07:42 PM
I'm gonna save chuck's message in my hard drive...that rocked.

joeap
08-24-2005, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by Majormajor-01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EmKen:
The record of the AVG is outstanding in overcoming overwhelming odds. We combat flight simmers recognise that material differences should be overcome by a greater combat spirit. What was their motivation, do you think?

Emken

Not to mention the 100 dollars in gold they got for each Japaneese aircraft they shot down.....

Majormajor-01
Jamming Pentagon computers for over 60 years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read Chuck's post? Sure they were paid, like the Eagel squadron, don't see how helping China is any less honourable than helping the UK. Heck even the Soviet VVS starting offering bonuses to their fighter pilots to try to motivate them.

Chuck_Older
08-24-2005, 07:47 AM
Please don't let me confuse anyone.

The AVG was a similar concept to the Eagle Squadrons- US pilots going to fight in a foreign country, for that country. But the Eagles were regular military pilots in the RAF. No special treatment, no bounties, nothing that a regular Pilot Officer didn't get. The AVG didn't join the Chinese air force

In concept the two had similarities. Unlike the AVG, the US government actually tried to block the prospective ES pilots from going to England.

The bounty for a confirmed victory was 500 dollars, not 100 dollars. "In Gold" may be a legend, AVG pilots sent money home and I doubt that they had an exchequer on hand to convert gold into bank notes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Greg Boyington was a brave brave man. He also harbored an almost irrational dislike of Chennault and carried a grudge against him until the day he died. It is almost certain that Boyington fabricated at least 3 kills from his AVG days, or at best they were real victories but unconfirmed.

Boyington deserted the AVG after a disagreement and was dishonorably discharged. He actually disobeyed direct orders on occasion, but since the AVG was not a formal military organization and technically a contractual obligation to the Central Aircraft Manufacting Company, the worst that could happen is that he was defaulting on a contract. Several prospective AVG pilots used this loophole to get out of military service- they resigned and signed on with CAMCO for the AVG, then deserted well before the ship reached Burma. They legally were not military deserters- they defaulted a civil contract which at the time was small potatoes in this situation.

I respect Boyington's valor and flying prowess, but the man was difficult personally and certainly no angel. Chennault was quoted as saying that if he could, he'd have Boyington prosecuted (some say he said "shot") as a deserter, because when he disappeared and went back home, his unit was in combat

Slater_51st
08-24-2005, 09:06 AM
Chuck,
Great post!

As for Boyington, I don't have a great deal of admiration for what he did while he was with the AVG. In his first encounter with the Japanese, he threw all of Chennault's training out the window and nearly got himself killed. He did, however, do a fair job with the "Black Sheep."

Found this wrt his AVG claims, from ace pilots.com

"Boyington claimed to have shot down six Japanese fighters, which would have made him one of the first American aces of the war. He maintained until his death in 1988 that he did, in fact, have six kills, and the Marine Corps officially credits him with those kills. From AVG records, which were loosely kept, he was credited (paid) for 2 aerial kills. Why the discrepancy between 2 and 6? I think Bruce Gamble, in Black Sheep One got it right. Gamble notes that in a raid on Chiang Mai, Boyington was one of four pilots who were credited with destroying 15 planes on the ground. As the AVG paid for destroyed Japanes planes, on the ground or in the air, Boyington lobbied for his share of the Chiang Mai planes - 3.75, to be precise. Later, while at Guadalcanal, he characterized his Flying Tiger record as including "six kills." For Greg Boyington, to add 3.75 ground claims to 2 aerial kills, round it off to six kills, and establish himself as one of the first American aces, was a "little white lie" indeed. "

S! Slater

Tex-Hill-AVG
08-24-2005, 12:03 PM
Yeah, Boyington was a problem child. He wouldn't have been able to pull his stunts in todays military. If he served today he would at the very least be dishonarably discharged for moral turpitude.

If I remember correctly, there were even some former VMF-214 members who were very upset with they way he portrayed the squadron in his book and subsequent TV show.

Thankfully, Boyington was the exception. The rest of the AVG went on to serve with distinction and honor through out WWII and Korea.

For example, David Lee "Tex" Hill had 18 confirmed kills and was the first P-51B Mustang pilot to shoot down a Japanese Oscar. He went on to become a brigadier general in the Texas Air National Guard at the age of 31. This is the type of men that joined the AVG. They possessed valuable combat experience that they were able to share with other pilots once the AVG disbanded.


Here is the official AVG website: http://www.flyingtigersavg.com
Note that in the squadron rosters they only list members who were honorably discharged. You won't see Boyington's name listed in the roster.

Waldo.Pepper
08-24-2005, 02:17 PM
I read all of this thread... and I respect all your views. However I think that if the laudable words that have beed expresed about the AVG are true this must also be true of the SOVIET volunteers and the ITALIAN volunteers who served in China as well.

-----

Read this

On February 23, 1938, the Russian volunteers launched an effective offensive against the Japanese air base in Taiwan, destroying 40 Japanese planes and sinking or damaging several warships. By 1940, Japan had lost 986 planes in mid-air or on the ground in China.

During the war, a total of 700 volunteers from the Soviet Union fought in China, and 236 lost their lives. A monument erected in Wuhan‚‚ā¨ôs Liberation Park shows the Chinese people‚‚ā¨ôs eternal commemoration and respect for these dauntless Soviet fighters.

from

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/En-2005/05-33-e/SP-5.htm


They also had Italian aid in the form of Breda Metalico's and their associated voluteers.

Read this...

The Chinese Air Force found itself rebuilt nearly from scratch three times between 1935 and 1943. In the mid-1930s, Italian and American aircraft and advisors were brought in - nearly 500 in all. The heart of this air force was some 300 Curtiss Hawk biplane fighters (60 Is, 130 IIs, 80 IIIs). In August 1937, when Japanese forces in China attacked, this Air Force rapidly fell apart; only 200 aircraft were in a flyable condition and most of those were rapidly destroyed in air combat.

from

http://world.std.com/~Ted7/minorafp.htm


If what has been said about the AVG is true then these fine words must also be true of these 'volunteers'... and of the Swedes who fought in Finlands Air Force and of the volunteers who fought in the Spanish Civil War.

The AVG does not have a monopoly on heroism.

Tex-Hill-AVG
08-24-2005, 02:38 PM
No one ever said the AVG had a monopoly on heroism. The AVG just happens to be a unit that has attracted a lot of attention and press.

The fact is there is just more publicly available information on the AVG and its operations than on the units you mentioned.

I would not rate one unit or person as being braver than the next. All are brave as each is called to perform a specific duty.

Saunders1953
08-24-2005, 02:39 PM
For Greg Boyington, to add 3.75 ground claims to 2 aerial kills, round it off to six kills, and establish himself as one of the first American aces, was a "little white lie" indeed. "

But the AVG commonly shared air victories too (whoever was in the air during the furball, IIRC, so all the victory records of the AVG are suspect, in that determining how many planes a pilot actually shot down would be difficult.

Also, my recollection is that the AVG had about 100, not close to 300, air claims. Or was the 296 number inclusive of ground kills? I think it was in Gamble's book, but anyway recent scholarship based on extant records lowered the air kill number to something like 35 or 39. This isn't meant to disparage the AVG, btw, because a 3-1 victory ratio is nothing to sneeze at, since standard attack doctrine (at least from that era--don't know if it hold true today) required a 3-1 ratio for the attacker to prevail. The AVG turned the tables on the Japanese on that score!

Waldo, good point.

joeap
08-24-2005, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I read all of this thread... and I respect all your views. However I think that if the laudable words that have beed expresed about the AVG are true this must also be true of the SOVIET volunteers and the ITALIAN volunteers who served in China as well.

-----


The AVG does not have a monopoly on heroism.

Indeed Waldo, excellent post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Chuck_Older
08-24-2005, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I read all of this thread... and I respect all your views. However I think that if the laudable words that have beed expresed about the AVG are true this must also be true of the SOVIET volunteers and the ITALIAN volunteers who served in China as well.

-----

Read this

On February 23, 1938, the Russian volunteers launched an effective offensive against the Japanese air base in Taiwan, destroying 40 Japanese planes and sinking or damaging several warships. By 1940, Japan had lost 986 planes in mid-air or on the ground in China.

During the war, a total of 700 volunteers from the Soviet Union fought in China, and 236 lost their lives. A monument erected in Wuhan‚‚ā¨ôs Liberation Park shows the Chinese people‚‚ā¨ôs eternal commemoration and respect for these dauntless Soviet fighters.

from

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/En-2005/05-33-e/SP-5.htm


They also had Italian aid in the form of Breda Metalico's and their associated voluteers.

Read this...

The Chinese Air Force found itself rebuilt nearly from scratch three times between 1935 and 1943. In the mid-1930s, Italian and American aircraft and advisors were brought in - nearly 500 in all. The heart of this air force was some 300 Curtiss Hawk biplane fighters (60 Is, 130 IIs, 80 IIIs). In August 1937, when Japanese forces in China attacked, this Air Force rapidly fell apart; only 200 aircraft were in a flyable condition and most of those were rapidly destroyed in air combat.

from

http://world.std.com/~Ted7/minorafp.htm


If what has been said about the AVG is true then these fine words must also be true of these 'volunteers'... and of the Swedes who fought in Finlands Air Force and of the volunteers who fought in the Spanish Civil War.

The AVG does not have a monopoly on heroism.

Waldo, that is all true, but I can't understand how keying on the AVG's accomplishments implies that others had no bravery or merit or less bravery or merit- the question was about the AVG, not all foreign volunteers who fought and died for China in the '30s and '40s.

I'm a little confused as to how what has been posted takes anything away from them. nothing has been said to the effect of the AVG being the only brave group who fought anywhere, let alone China. Has something been editted out of one of the replies? I am confused. You typically have clear points but I'm missing this one

Chuck_Older
08-24-2005, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Saunders1953:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For Greg Boyington, to add 3.75 ground claims to 2 aerial kills, round it off to six kills, and establish himself as one of the first American aces, was a "little white lie" indeed. "

But the AVG commonly shared air victories too (whoever was in the air during the furball, IIRC, so all the victory records of the AVG are suspect, in that determining how many planes a pilot actually shot down would be difficult.

Also, my recollection is that the AVG had about 100, not close to 300, air claims. Or was the 296 number inclusive of ground kills? I think it was in Gamble's book, but anyway recent scholarship based on extant records lowered the air kill number to something like 35 or 39. This isn't meant to disparage the AVG, btw, because a 3-1 victory ratio is nothing to sneeze at, since standard attack doctrine (at least from that era--don't know if it hold true today) required a 3-1 ratio for the attacker to prevail. The AVG turned the tables on the Japanese on that score!

Waldo, good point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beleive that that is all-inclusive. They received bounties on air and ground kills. But at one time, so did the USAAC/USAAF pilots. If they had continued doing this, Richard Bong wouldn't have been the top US ace! Major Tom Reynolds would have been, with 42 kills- 38 of them on the ground. He flew P-40s. Obsolete indeed


I am a little skeptical of recent research into the kill claims. The loss of face was and still is a deadly serious issue to some Japanese- witness the suicides among Japanese businessmen in the '90s after their business failures were discovered. They had reported profts when they were taking losses. The answer for them wasn't even denial of the facts, it was death. And this was the 1990s, and in peacetime- no Emperor except the Golden Idol of Money to apologize to.

If I can rationalise that the average pilot in WWII wasn't always correct in his kill claims and was sure a plane crashed when it really didn't sometimes, I can easily rationalise that the IJA under-reported loss reports to save face on occasion, putting them down to weather related accidents or non-combat losses, or even reporting that the unit saw no combat that day. If eyewitness accounts are to be believed, many of the AVG's claims were seen to crash. It's been said recently that some AVG pilots bartered with the RAF for kill credits, or made up claims. As if this couldn't happen with another group of pilots in WWII! I don't beleive that even an isolated case of this kill credit salesmanship proves anything overall. Some claims that were 100% legitimate weren't awarded on all sides in WWII. Others that weren't really kills got credit as such. For individual pilots, this matters for 'scores' but overall it tends to even out more than a bit in my opinion. It's like the notion that senior Luftwaffe pilots stole kills from their wingmen- an isolated case of this doesn't disprove all other pilot calaims in the Luftwaffe. And 'official' reports are doctored all the time, I can't see how Japanese reports would be less or more likely to be doctored than amy other countries, even the US. Joe Foss was the top USMC ace, not Boyington. Boyington got some in the AVG, and some he claimed in the AVG weren't even kills- he fudged it a little. But who is the "Top USMC Ace of WWII"? Boyington! In reality, it's actually Foss. So right there, "offcial records" can be flat out wrong for the US, too

Slater_51st
08-24-2005, 04:24 PM
I need to appologize real quick here because I didn't finish my earlier post. I feel Boyington was too much of a hotshot, however the fact he was out there doing it still commands great respect. That he spent a good deal of the war in a Japanese POW camp just shows the great sacrifice he really did make for his country. After the war, he got kinda thrown into the limelight, which as with so many other WWII heros, screwed up his life.

Sorry I didn't finish my post earlier, it left him in a bad light http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

As for the AVG's inflated victory records, you're probably correct. However, it's a fact that almost every nations claims are inflated to some extent. However, one thing is certain, Chennault was a brilliant leader of men, and a sound tactician at a time when practially all of USAAC was stuck in WWI http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

From Chuck Hawk's website:
"The records show that after only 6 months of combat the Flying Tigers had shot down 297 enemy aircraft confirmed, and another 153 probable, for only 12 planes lost in air combat. But 57 of their original 99 P-40's were no longer air worthy due to combat damage, pilot error, maintenance problems, or just being worn out."

I wonder what the actual totals are for e/a destroyed on the ground. If it is up in the 200 level, that is really amazing, hehe.

Later,

S! Slate

Waldo.Pepper
08-24-2005, 07:52 PM
Chuck you said..

"how keying on the AVG's accomplishments implies that others had no bravery or merit or less bravery or merit-"

I believe that this might have been done when you said this...

"All I can say about that is God Bless America for making young men who would do this."

John Wayne would be proud.

Would you expand that statement to say...

"God Bless the Soviet Union and Fascist Italy for making young men who would do this." For they did EXACTLY the same thing as the AVG did (perhaps without the bounty per plane shot down though.)

I have engaged in the past on these forums in what I would call pissing contests, but I think most would agree that it rare.

I have a beef, but a small one (more of a veal perhaps) with your impassioned lovely & patriotic (albeit flawed in my opinion) post.

Oh man I like to think I'm a prety nice guy and all, and I think I'm going get hammered for this, but too bad.

The reason I answered the way I did was really prompted by your earlier reply - which totally negated the impact of the bounty in the motivations of the AVG, and then went on to pronounce (I am paraphrasing here) -- that they were selfless individuals who were virtually on a mission so holy that it made them sound like they were doing missionary work.

I know that your a big fan of them and all, and to be honest I too am a fan of them and what they accomplished. And if we were engaged in a trivia contest about the AVG you would win hands down. [Just like Lebillfish would win if it were chatting about Ki-61]. But I think that I have a slightly less biased opinion on them.

I DO NOT see them as unique. I DO NOT see then as "piosly fighting against tyranny when the rest of the population was blind to the threat." (Which, if you'll forgive me one more time, is what I think you were implying when you took a dig at the civilian population in the PRE war years who were in effect 'not as good/wise/intelligent' as the Regular military population during the prewar who saw the writing on the wall. Using that same logic that means that the Soviet and Italians fighting in China before the AVG were EVEN MORE wise, because they saw the threat and acted before the AVG. I think we must all agree that that assertion is ridiculous.

A follow on post which touched on the views of Boyington certainly implied that HE was there for the money. And if you read some of Boyingtons writtings he takes pains to point out that he was "cheated" by the Chinese Government out of some of his bounty, and was quite bitter about it.

Pilots in the guise of 'volunteers' is rather common.

Here is a partial list (off the top of my head, I'm certain that there were more).

Swedes/Norwegians in Finland.
Russians/Italians in China.
Soviets in Korea (likely Vietnam as well).


Finally, and I think most importantly, the AVG was not an IT but rather it was a THEY, composed of individuals, who more importantly had INDIVIDUAL motivations for joining the AVG. This point has been totally missed by everyone. Some were there for the money. Some for the adventure. Some for their country. Some for other reasons.

Also in a pretty shallow but interesting book called Combat Kill, two nations during the war used payments of money to reward their aircrew during the war. These two nations (if memory serves) were the Soviet Union and Italy. So being that we are all human (that's right isn't it?) If they thought that they could spur higher performance with this kind of reward - then I think that the members of the AVG could maybe - just - a little bit so ya think be inspired by the money also? Boyington certainly thought so.

Bluedog72
08-25-2005, 03:10 AM
$100 was a LARGE amount of money back then, and the lure of adventure and piloting a fighter plane is pretty strong to young men.
Not knocking the AVG, but you cant ignore the pulling power of what at the time was months worth of pay.

Chuck_Older
08-25-2005, 07:19 AM
Waldo, you're picking a fight, you know that right?

This is about the AVG, not Soviet or Italian volunteers

If you'd care to refute what I said, go ahead, but your anti-USA horsesh!t won't fly with me. What you just posted is 100% BS and you probably know it

I have no idea why you're picking a fight with me

You have no reason to use this BS to make your points. You're an intelligent man

If you think I'm going to go into a case study of AVG motivation on an individual pilot-by-pilot basis, you're nuttier than I thought

I posted what I posted and I stand by it. You have no reason to attack me but you are. You see to put a lot of weight to the bounties paid. The US government offered bounties for soldiers to enlist in the American Civil War. You simply don't know the USA very well but that doesn't stop you from commenting about it

Your John Wayne comment and your dislike of the "God Bless America" comment are irrational and prejudiced

You may want to re-think how you address other members here. I had thought we were friendly up until right now

You've put a lot of words into my mouth here
back right the hell off

geetarman
08-25-2005, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:


The AVG does not have a monopoly on heroism.

Sorry, your post is out of line. Are you that sensitive that accolades to a US volunteer group (posted in response to a request for information about them) didn't mention Russian and Italian or Swedeish volunteers? Why should it? Go ahead and start your own thread.

geetarman
08-25-2005, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Waldo, you're picking a fight, you know that right?

This is about the AVG, not Soviet or Italian volunteers

If you'd care to refute what I said, go ahead, but your anti-USA horsesh!t won't fly with me. What you just posted is 100% BS and you probably know it

I have no idea why you're picking a fight with me

You have no reason to use this BS to make your points. You're an intelligent man

If you think I'm going to go into a case study of AVG motivation on an individual pilot-by-pilot basis, you're nuttier than I thought

I posted what I posted and I stand by it. You have no reason to attack me but you are. You see to put a lot of weight to the bounties paid. The US government offered bounties for soldiers to enlist in the American Civil War. You simply don't know the USA very well but that doesn't stop you from commenting about it

Your John Wayne comment and your dislike of the "God Bless America" comment are irrational and prejudiced

You may want to re-think how you address other members here. I had thought we were friendly up until right now

You've put a lot of words into my mouth here
back right the hell off

Don't bother. Typical. Getting all worked up when someone posts something laudable and worthy that either the US or an Anerican did, without throwing in a comment about the virtues of every other point on the globe. Amazes me.

Usually what follows is an attack on the US effort and quickly the initial big issue that country "X" wasn't mentioned falls by the wayside. Way to **** in a post!

Waldo.Pepper
08-25-2005, 09:25 AM
Chuck..

From what I know of you I think your a swell guy. I'm sorry your getting so upset. That was not my intention. I get NO pleasure from it, and there is nothing for me in continuing this conversation.

Like I said earlier I don't think I engage in pissing contests very often and will not do it here as there is nothing in it for me. However, if you wish I would be happy to continue the discussion with you privately and await you creation of just such a private topic/conversation with me.

I have obviously never met you in real live but I consider you a virtual friend and sincerely hope you think something similar of myself.

Chuck_Older
08-25-2005, 09:46 AM
Waldo, I still can't beleive the way you reacted to my post. It's so very much unlike you to post such an aggresive and abusive message

Waldo.Pepper
08-25-2005, 10:55 AM
I'm sorry you see it as abusive and agressive. I don't see it that way at all, and is was not my intention.

Personaly, I am shocked at your reaction.

Like I have already stated I would be happy to continue the discussion with civility, privately, and eagerly await you initiating the discussion there.

I think that the moderators would appreciate
this as well.