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WildCat140679
03-21-2005, 03:03 PM
Question: How well does your crew AI preform when it comes dow nto reporting new contact.


My findings:
So far, i'm having a bad experiance with reports comming from my crew. (Having two sonar/radio officers seated there, station bar 60% filled)

I play at a realism of about 73%.
Nearly all things on, leaving only the external view, camera toy's and a few others active. Besides those all other things are as real as the can be.
Time line still in 1939-1940


My sonar man, doesn't report contact untill i'm right on top of the target. This is with in a 10km radius most of the time. The watch crew often picks up the sonar contact after that.

When I take over the the sonar station, I can detect ships (noise) at least 20km out and much futher away. Why can't my sonar man report this?

Does my crew lack the skill?
...
..
.

I've played with the hydrophone quite a bit, and noticed that when running with uboat engine's active the screw noise from ships becomes loud enough to be heared. This is often some where around 10km and at this point, my sonar man reports a contact. But this isnt always the case. I've had situations where I was with in at least 5km of my target that I could see, asked for a contact report and got non. No sonar contact!?!

I could see it, I could hear it, I could manualy ID it as a merchant, but yet, my crew AI could not.

I fear that, for some reason, sonar contact are detected with the sub engines running. Switching the sub engine's off doesn't improve the crew AI its preformance. Or at least that what I make out of it with my above posted findings.



I've posted this issue I'm having in "Got a question for the devteam", but I would like to know if I'm the only one having this issue?

I think its an issue, because if I have to kick out my sonar contact man each and every time to manualy to a 360 hydrophone sweep, it becomes way to much micro management. Why do I have the sonar officer in the fistplace it makes me wonder...


Feedback more then welcome.

fizilbert
03-21-2005, 03:33 PM
I have nearly the same problem, so it's not just you. Even with a radio qualified man at the sonar he can't seem to recognize a contact even when I can easily do it listening myself.

flyinj
03-21-2005, 03:41 PM
I've begun doing tests to see if I can hear farther when submerged using the manual hydrophone.

Surprisingly, what I've found is that if I order a depth of 25 meters, as soon as I hit around 20 meters down my sonar guy starts reporting contacts.

He rarely reports contacts when I'm on the surface... but below the surface he definately hears better.

This is also using a "specialized" radio/sonar brown guy (not the blue guy) who I've promoted twice and gave 2 medals to... so that may help as well.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-21-2005, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WildCat140679:
So far, i'm having a bad experiance with reports comming from my crew. (Having two sonar/radio officers seated there, station bar 60% filled) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's your problem. In order to work at full capacity, the station bar has to be completely filled, and to get that, they have to be trained in sonar/radar and they have to be a higher level NCO. Until the station bar is at 100%, you'll always be able to hear more yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've had situations where I was with in at least 5km of my target that I could see, asked for a contact report and got non. No sonar contact!?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Until they're fully trained, that will happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I could see it, I could hear it, I could manualy ID it as a merchant, but yet, my crew AI could not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to realise, you're a captain. You've gone through all the training that each man in your crew gets. You know each instrument better than the crew. The sonar man is an inexperienced conscript until you train him. Get him a sonar badge and he'll do much better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think its an issue, because if I have to kick out my sonar contact man each and every time to manualy to a 360 hydrophone sweep, it becomes way to much micro management. Why do I have the sonar officer in the fistplace it makes me wonder... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if your sonar station is only 60% filled, you don't have a fully trained officer in that position. He's only half trained and he's only going to report 60% of the contacts you can hear and he's going to screw up some of the ones he hears too.

Once you have him trained, you'll start getting 100% reliability. You can't just throw any old Matrose in there and expect him to perform like a highly trained sonar engineer.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-21-2005, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyinj:
I've begun doing tests to see if I can hear farther when submerged using the manual hydrophone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You shouldn't be able to hear much of anything unless you're submerged. That's why it's so important to dive every now and then to do a hydrophone search.

Frederf220
03-21-2005, 09:25 PM
I have a sonar qualified warrant officer and he still is rather inept. I can detect ships surfaced, running flank by myself at 6km or more.

Having a 100% bar just not to have him be a dunderhead shouldn't be required.

Dominicrigg
03-21-2005, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frederf220:
I have a sonar qualified warrant officer and he still is rather inept. I can detect ships surfaced, running flank by myself at 6km or more.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmm thats dodgy, i find it hard to believe thats realistic. As far as i knew they couldnt detect anything on the surface at speed. Imagine running a microphone off the underneath of a boat at 18mph! Just a swooshing sound lol

Frederf220
03-22-2005, 12:16 AM
Another thing mentioned besides "20km in good conditions" was that the Phones were only good for two 140 degree arcs on either side of the boat. Presumably with gaps forward and backward.

NeoOhm
03-22-2005, 12:29 AM
I have the bar totaly filled and i have the same problem, the crew dont always report new contacts.

Like several times i am hammered by cannonfire from Destroyers and my crew dont say that i am..

I have tried this 10 times, to stay surfaced and 7 out of 10 times my crew dont report contacts that are like 3 km avay and shooting at us..

I think its a bug, what do u guys think.. i hope my crew is better than this or we may be better of in a bar somewhere in Germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bulwark_
03-22-2005, 12:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyinj:
This is also using a "specialized" radio/sonar brown guy (not the blue guy) who I've promoted twice and gave 2 medals to... so that may help as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! I'm sorry, that sounds so funny! The, uh... brown guys are your Petty officers.... and the blue guys are your seaman. That's great! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

alarmer
03-22-2005, 12:53 AM
Has anybody actually tested is there huge difference if your using hydrophones on surface or when submerged?

At the moment I usually just listen when Iam on surface, but if there is difference in detecting vessels submerged, Ill be sure to be under water next time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bulwark_
03-22-2005, 12:59 AM
And to add to alarmer's question... does depth matter?

Timber...wolf
03-22-2005, 01:20 AM
The sonar thing works for me ok ..I think but then Im not as knowledgeable as you guys but I pic up stuff way before I see it even though the green bar is not maxed out .... I am only at 56 % realism maybe that matters some but also I DO HAVE a guy with a sonar badge tag gold thing and I use him often he is a Petty Officer. Every patrol at end of it .. I think .. one can assign a QUALIFICATION .. Under Crew click on AWARDS at left then click on Qualifications at bottom and put right qualification on a Petty Officer .. you hunters probably know this but I didnt know we could assign a new qualification after each mission ... didnt know this for 8 missions under my belt so I restarted.. It seems to really help too. I use a Machinist Officer on da diesel and a Machinist Petty Off on da dielsel and thats all I need to run it saves on lot of crew getting fatigued .. ALSO, It seems to help me to SECURE TO Silent Running. Have been in super Fog bad weather and even when not when stop and dive to periscope depth and use Silent Running my sonar guy pics up stuff. But you may be doing this too .. Pics up stuff more easier than when not silent running .. and the guys whisper and its cool but most my crew farts all the time and the smell cant get rid of cause cant surface and they so loud too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fender74
03-22-2005, 01:35 AM
same thing here,i've got fully experienced sonar/radio crew and my watch crew spot everything first.
and i only get reports from my sonar when i'm being depth charged.
i also dive and switch off engines and listen myself,i can here other ships but my crew don't.

Frederf220
03-22-2005, 02:30 AM
It seems the game desiners modelled crew ability based on their experiance a little too harshly.

If in reality listening to the sonar is like the game, you could give a 12 year old the earphones and have him come tell me any time he hears something funny and it'd be double the range of these submariners.

There should also be an "obvious" threshold for all crew functions, like they will always detect all ships withiin 4km, sonar withing 7km ect.

Quelthanas
03-22-2005, 02:46 AM
In fact I think they work just fine.

For optimal hydrophone use you need :

To be underwater
Have competent crew to the sonar post
Stop the engines

Just listen to them and they will spot many any contacts your watch crew had no chance to spot.

Sure it wont work if you are surfaced, flanking your engines with cadet seaman on post.... Before thinking your crex is incompetent, just remember you, the captain, are incompetent.

Captain_David
03-22-2005, 02:53 AM
MY GOD!

When surfaced the SONAR array isn't even completely covered with water, so how the f uck can you blame the crew when YOU are commanding your ship in a totally wrong way!

In order to use the SONAR properly you MUST be submerged, dive down to 25-30m and THEN listen for contacts!

I've spotted lots of ships just by diving down to 30m, after a minute or so the SONAR crew starts to report in contacts.. And when you surface again the contacs are lost, and there is no visual contact..

And as a former SONAR operator i can assure you that the SONAR is pretty good. And the crew does a pretty good job to.

Frederf220
03-22-2005, 03:01 AM
Ah, I keep forgetting.

I'm at 21m, all stop, listen around and listen to an obvious screw noise. Get up off the chair and let my SO have a go at it, tell him to sweep. No contact.

WildCat140679
03-22-2005, 04:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain_David:
MY GOD!

When surfaced the SONAR array isn't even completely covered with water, so how the f uck can you blame the crew when YOU are commanding your ship in a totally wrong way!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well excuse me, I forgot to mention I dive before it use the sonar. I'm well aware that its mounted on top side and sticking outside the water when surfaced.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In order to use the SONAR properly you MUST be submerged, dive down to 25-30m and THEN listen for contacts!

I've spotted lots of ships just by diving down to 30m, after a minute or so the SONAR crew starts to report in contacts.. And when you surface again the contacs are lost, and there is no visual contact..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know about that, that you need to be a whole lot deeper to make the sonar work effecive. I've yet to try it out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And the crew does a pretty good job to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This part i'm still not all to sure about. Specially with the sonar officer.
Even tho I didn't do it 100% correctly, to make full use of the sonar.
When I dive and can hear my contacts clearly, why can't my crew man? This bothers me the most.

But i'll have to try out what you said about 25 30 meters depth to make good use of the sonar. I'll have to wain and see if the sonar officer is then still sloppy in reporting contact. (currently at work)


Thanks to all for the good info, it cleared up some things for me, what I did wrong or didn't know.

RealHondo
03-22-2005, 06:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...I'm well aware that its mounted on top side and sticking outside the water when surfaced... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not true, the GHG (Gruppenhorchger√¬§t) is under water, at least most parts of it. It should be definately possibly to hear something when surfaced, but being submerged should benefit a lot. I guess you are confused by the KDB (Kristalldreh...something) which is atop the deck.

Elerium115ufo
03-22-2005, 07:44 AM
ok, i have the radio qualification to give out. But I dont see a sonar qual..is the radio one both or what? or is it as simple as I need to scroll down? Ill check on that.

hatman1967
03-22-2005, 07:46 AM
But if I have to do all this stuff (dive, stop engines, etc, etc) just so my sonar monkey MIGHT be able to hear something, why would I do that when I can easily do a hydrophone sweep myself when on the surface?

Dano

Captain_David
03-22-2005, 07:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RealHondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...I'm well aware that its mounted on top side and sticking outside the water when surfaced... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not true, the GHG (Gruppenhorchger√¬§t) is under water, at least most parts of it. It should be definately possibly to hear something when surfaced, but being submerged should benefit a lot. I guess you are confused by the KDB (Kristalldreh...something) which is atop the deck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, just because a part of it is in water DOES NOT mean that you hear good.. Because, it must be entirely covered with water or else you will get a lot of noise and air poring around.
I've got IRL experience of SONARs and when the uboat is surfaced you dont even man the SONAR because it's not worth it.

RealHondo
03-22-2005, 07:56 AM
I have read a first hand account of a uboat sonar operator who did use the sonar while being surfaced (and yes, he could hear something http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). It was during a night surface attack. IIRC the boat had stopped though.

Btw, I am talking about "Feindfahrten" by Wolfgang Hirschfeld, I don't know if there is an English edition.

Athlonics
03-22-2005, 09:58 AM
There's actually some issues with sonar /hydrophones.

- I've got an active sonar on my type VIIB !!??
Not to mention in 1940 and it works : PING !

- My Chief Sr Petty-officer with Radio qualification and 230/300 experience is still unable to hear anything less than 10-15 km away, which I can hear about 30km (I've made test on surface, 25m and 60m deep, engine stopped and for around 10mn each).

- I still be able to use the KDB hydrophone at surface with it out of the water !


And during my test phase with my Sonar AI operator :

Engine stopped, he picked up nothing.
Going to surface at ahead standart and suddenly he scream "CONTACT !" at around 15m depth, what the .. ?


Hopefully devs are on it for the next patch.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WildCat140679
03-22-2005, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RealHondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...I'm well aware that its mounted on top side and sticking outside the water when surfaced... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not true, the GHG (Gruppenhorchger√¬§t) is under water, at least most parts of it. It should be definately possibly to hear something when surfaced, but being submerged should benefit a lot. I guess you are confused by the KDB (Kristalldreh...something) which is atop the deck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oke, now I'm getting some what confused.
I'm indeed talking about the KDB hydrophone, and not the GHG, older version.
In the descriptions it stats it mounted on top of the upper deck of the uboat, what can be turned with around 160 degree's from inside the sub. A nice little "T" kind of thingy is shown on my uboat aswell it can be clearly seen when having a good look at your sub from the outside.

This things looks to me, like its gonna by out of the water most of the times when the sub is surfaced. Only times it will go underwater is with rough weather and bigger waves and fully when the sub dives down. But I don't believe this should give a good hearing condition either, with the waves crashing ontop of the device, but thats just a wild gess.



So far, i've not had much better test results or sonar contact reports when diving down to a 30meter depth, neither could I hear much of a differance when manually operating the hydrophone.
(and yes, the KBD works above water in the game. if it should I don't know.)


My statment still stands. I'm having poor results from my sonar officer when it comes down to reporting contacts.
I'm not planning on doing micro-managment in my sub, if I can hear screws, why can't my officers and report it! I give orders, I should not be doing the work my self!

ARM505
03-22-2005, 12:43 PM
This does sound a bit off. Experienced Sonar operators should not really affect detection range, but should be able to say something like 'Contact Herr Kapitan (or whatever!), I think its a convoy, between 3-10 ships, and I count two of what sounds like destroyers, could be about 15nm away, maybe further!' A doofus SO would still pick up the noise (I mean he's got ears, just like the senior guy!), but he would say 'Sir, I hear some ships!' Something like that. A good Captain relies on his crew to give him info, and does not NEED to micromanage. I have some idea, I have been in these situations.

The point is, detection range is equipment (that includes ears!) and condition based, not experience based. Experience gives the ability to make intuitive, educated estimates based on the tricky to interpret data you get.

Athlonics
03-22-2005, 12:57 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


Ok now I managed to hear 3 contact at very long range (around 130km) of course my qualified sonarman (see above post) didn't.

Also, at 30m depth and engines stopped, good weather, and bottom at 53m depth.

Look at Diissss :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/athlonic/images/HydroRange.jpg

WildCat140679
03-22-2005, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Athlonics:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Look at Diissss :
<<picture removed see reply original post above>>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure about this, its not some radio contact update along with a time listed?

When my sonar officer reports a ship, and i'm playing with the map updates realisme on, it will draw a line towards the contact. I don't see sonar lines her (and you have contact updates drawn on the map), so i'm kinda think its a radio message of ship spottings along with a heading and speed.
But then again, I never had a sonar contact beyond 15km range reported, who knows your right, yet I've got my doubts.

Cheetoes
03-22-2005, 01:52 PM
Hehe

@the picture
Hes got the radio reported contact, mixed up with the sonar contact.

Those contacts that you see are given to you by radio reports from BdU. They will fade out over time to show the reliability of the position.

Sonar contacts are indeed black lines drawn from your uboat. They are drawn in the direction of the sound.

The boxes are radio reports.

Athlonics
03-22-2005, 02:46 PM
HUH ???!!!!???? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


Come on guys, call me a nut !
Stay serious will ja ?


OF COURSE THEY ARE RADIO CONTACTS ON THE MAP


What I'm saying is that I can hear those RADIO contacts on the hydrophone !

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

PS: Ok I didn't mention radio contacts but this seems obvious, sorry for the misunderstood

WildCat140679
03-22-2005, 04:07 PM
What time setting/equipment did you use to compleet that task?

I'm stuck in 1939~1940 setting atm, so i'm not doing better than past 20km, and if i'm really lucky some where up 30km manually using the hydrophone.

Athlonics
03-22-2005, 04:38 PM
Well that's a little *strange*

Equip:

Type VIIB with KDB Hydrophone in March 1940.

After I posted the pic, I continued my interception, have a stop again to "Hydrophonize" and ..... NOTHING

Nothing till the target closes to around 30km.

And then surprise ! My sonarman announce me the contact ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

So it seems he's ok, but when he is in a good mood http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


As for my 130km away sound contact maybe a bug since I lost them all ?

TteFAboB
03-22-2005, 08:55 PM
Do you really need to fill the green bar for maximum sonar efficiency?

I thought it was divided between the Sonarman and a Radio man, currently I have 2 SO qualified petty officers that take turns on the Hydrophone station, if I put one of them on the radio seat the bar gets filled but, why does a man sitting in front of the sub's radio would increase the capabilities of the hydrohpone or the skill of the sonar operator?

Did anyone tested visual detection range with full/minimal crew man on watch duty?

Deamon-
09-13-2005, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Athlonics:
- I've got an active sonar on my type VIIB !!??
Not to mention in 1940 and it works : PING !


What is maybe a not so know fact is that active sonars actualy were installed already prior to the war on german u-boats but were removed early in the war cose they were not mutch of use for the u-boat cose it would give away the presence of the u-boat anyway.

Deamon

Baldricks_Mate
09-13-2005, 01:18 AM
Interesting thread, this one.

Dunno what the problems could be...After first patrol, designte a petty officer a a sparkie. Next patrol get another one. Promote frequently if you like. Give them your first & second German Gold Crosses when they come up for you. get that green bar all the way across. Install best performing sonar set available for the time and hang out for the real flash sucker that becomes available later in the war. Be underwater to use. Remember there are dead zones and hey, real life can be just like that you know?

Cpt. Shatenbrikenhaus says: "2.5 millions tonnes of shipping just can't be wrong!"

panthercules
09-13-2005, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Baldricks_Mate:
Remember there are dead zones...

Yea - I know there should be dead zones but are they modeled in the game? I haven't run any specific tests, but over both my careers so far I've used both types of the early hydrophones (haven't survived past early 1942 yet) and while I have noticed the inability to use the 'phones while surfaced seems to be modeled but I have been able to pick up screw noises at my usual listening depths (12-25m) at all degrees/bearings around the circle with both types of 'phones without any apparent "dead zones" or blind spots.

I've also noticed that even with well qualified soundmen, ahead slow at 20-25m depth, I can hear and identify contacts much better and farther away than my crew can. However, I've also noticed that it may just be a case of it taking a while for them to find the contact - e.g., I'll dive with a visual contact maybe 4000m away, order the soundman to track the nearest contact only to be told there is no sound contact - then, after a while (or if I order him to do a normal sweep), he will eventually report the contact. I'm thinking maybe he is in effect reporting "no contact" before he has finished actually sweeping the needle around (and therefore before he has "found" the contact).

When I man the 'phones myself I generally stop the engines, but I've never really stopped the engines for my soundman (if I'm gonna bother to sit there with the engines stopped, I'd just as soon do the sweep myself - nothing else to do after all) - however, while I'm cruising at ahead slow while submerged during the day I assume my soundman will alert me so it would be nice if he could actually hear the contacts at least close to how well I could.

Slightly OT for this thread, but has 1.4b or RUB 1.43 changed something about the watch officer's visual spotting ability?? All of a sudden my watch is spotting ships out at like 8,200m, even at night, well before I can see them with the binocs, which is backwards from the way it was before where I could always see them a few 100m before my watch could but I could never see them more than about 7,000m or so away, and never that far at night

Baldricks_Mate
09-14-2005, 01:01 AM
OK, I'll park my sense of humour momentarily.

This is my thoughts, nutted out over a few careers. The program attempts in a limited way to simulate the real thing. Yes, you will pick up before the operator because you have human intelligence and the ability to extrapolate. The AI needs a sample of sounds over a shift in bearing for him to report it as a contact. The real thing on a modern warship uses the same principle. The scripting could be improved but I bet if someone tampers with it, they will go too far the other way.

The dead zones are modelled. Park your sub, pick up a contact passing astern, put the time "compression on, say 8 or 32x. Watch on the Gods eye view in the Navigation map. The contact line will mostly move as it should until it hits the dead zone, then remain stationary or fade or dissapear, then jump to the point where it leaves the zone. If you click on "report nearest contact" the report will reflect this as well. I have been fooled a few times, looking for a DD that was not there, because the information given to me was the last bearing it was on - 2 minutes ago. It was on another bearing by now. Doh! to me.

In a way we are all spoilt with dumbed down "computerised" game play making things easier for the masses. The real thing was far, far less precise.

As an experiment, start a patrol and un-tick the "Gods Eye" view for map updates. Adds a whole new dimension of difficulty!

There is an anomoly, If you ask the sonar to report nearest contact when the contact is in your visual range, eg: periscope depth & checking things out, he will report "no sound contact", even though the ship is obviously there.

Not in terms of programing & scripting (I'm too old school now!), but in the area generally, my background was warefare electronics tech, Royal Australian Navy.