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View Full Version : so those .50 cal weapons in those planes....



johann63
03-22-2004, 11:24 AM
whats up with that??

Havnt had the chance lately to fly my real P-38 and P-47 and compare the real effect of those mgs against the games version, but the last I remember, the game version is ah, ah, well, how should I put it....

BlitzPig_johann

johann63
03-22-2004, 11:24 AM
whats up with that??

Havnt had the chance lately to fly my real P-38 and P-47 and compare the real effect of those mgs against the games version, but the last I remember, the game version is ah, ah, well, how should I put it....

BlitzPig_johann

carguy_
03-22-2004, 11:42 AM
I find .50 a really difficult weapon.Was testing it and found out that convergence is vital.Either set a good convergence or you can shoot all you want and not down anything.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

FA_Whisky
03-22-2004, 12:06 PM
Don't have any problems with 50call at all. (only the Ki 84c is a bit hard to get down)

Chuck_Older
03-22-2004, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann63:
whats up with that??

Havnt had the chance lately to fly my real P-38 and P-47 and compare the real effect of those mgs against the games version, but the last I remember, the game version is ah, ah, well, how should I put it....

BlitzPig_johann<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't really think you have the chance to fire weapons from real WWII aircraft, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif So I'll give you my impressions from FB, rather than from flying my F-86 and P-51 around http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I blast things into little tiny pieces with a P-51, even with only 4 guns.

I thought this thread would be about .50 cals being too powerful, to tell the truth.

I really hated the .50s when I first got FB. Then I learned to really plaster the target with all guns for a full second or so.

When I first flew a P-51 in FB, I thought I had enabled unlimited ammo!
*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

BaldieJr
03-22-2004, 01:53 PM
The thing I like about the .50 scatterguns of the US planes is... ha! nothing!

But why mention it? Its like saying "hey, these collisions are a bit odd.".

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

carguy_
03-22-2004, 02:37 PM
Heheh just flew a coop in A8 vs P47D27.Took multiple hits.They`ve smashed my instruments but it was the lack of fuel that brought me down.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Gibbage1
03-22-2004, 03:04 PM
There is a reason why the browning has no power. Its spread all over the place! It has about 5X the dispursion of all other HMG's in the game for no explainable reason. Take a look at these screenshots.

Browning M2 .50 cal. (nose mounted on brewster)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/b2392.jpg

Ho-103 (nose mounted on Ki-84

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/Ki84Ia1.jpg

Mg-131 (nose mounted on 109 G6)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/Bf109G61.jpg

UBs (Nose mounted on Yak 1b)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/Yak1b1.jpg

johann63
03-22-2004, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
There is a reason why the browning has no power. Its spread all over the place! It has about 5X the dispursion of all other HMG's in the game for no explainable reason. Take a look at these screenshots.

Browning M2 .50 cal. (nose mounted on brewster)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/b2392.jpg

Ho-103 (nose mounted on Ki-84

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/Ki84Ia1.jpg

Mg-131 (nose mounted on 109 G6)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/Bf109G61.jpg

UBs (Nose mounted on Yak 1b)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/Yak1b1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmmm, very interesting Gibbage, its a bizarre phenomenon isnt it.

I agree with the other comments of convergance, your right, makes a big difference, but still, somethings fishy in Gothom City.

BlitzPig_johann

Steaky_361st
03-22-2004, 07:31 PM
Just set convergence....I get great effects with the P47 and P51. Those weak enemy planes tear into pieces....

-----------------------------------------------
Steaky http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

DHFS_dagger
03-22-2004, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steaky_361st:
Just set convergence....I get great effects with the P47 and P51. Those weak enemy
planes tear into pieces....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yup http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif just as steaky stated......convergence is the key.

defend yourselves from thy dagger:
--------------------------------

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ElAurens
03-22-2004, 09:31 PM
Convergence should not be an issue with the nose mounted guns of the P38 or P80, yet, it is! Now why is that? No other Heavy MGs in the game are as poorly modeled as the .50 Browning.

It boggles the mind...

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Gibbage1
03-23-2004, 12:10 AM
The smoke stack you see in the screenshots was in convergance. Its an error in the M2 browning that causes this spread.

Also note. The Ho-103 is a Japanese copy of the Browning M2, but has 5x the accuracy.

AFJ_Locust
03-23-2004, 02:33 AM
This is a true conspiracy, I knew it all along http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriousley tho the 50s are made to miss in this sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif no other explanation altho you can use 125 130 convergance & get some decent results if they were as accurate as the other hvy mgs the results would be alot more damaging...

another thing how come an ac like the p38 lightning with such a stable gun platform counterrotating props & all shakes like hell when you fire the guns I just dont get it.

Still love FB but USA aircraft get the broken end of the stick imho & now the p51 is a true Z&B ac LOL

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Zayets
03-23-2004, 02:43 AM
.50 suck because :
-sound is lame
-dispersion is way too high
.50 is good because:
-makes you aim better

.50 were never good in IL2.Try to straff a convoi and see what I mean. Is unbelieveable but I have better results with light MG oon the F4 than in the Jug.Seriously,they have to look at it. If they don't , np , I'm already used to this dispersion

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg

WOLFMondo
03-23-2004, 03:46 AM
I always thought it was just me who had problems with the 0.50 cals. I've found my best covergence is 300 (after hours of experimenting with online play) but even then I don't get quite the results I expect. I know with the wing mounted guns theres the whole wing shake etc and I buy that even if I do spend half my P51's ammo on taking down 1 plane.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What I don't get it is the P38's spread, the guns are tight together, the plane is very solid and heavy so would that not eliminate allot of the shake which would cause the bullets to spread? Surely such shake would cause stress fractures to the a/c anyway? All I can say on the P38 is thank god for that 20mm cause thats whats scored me most of my online kills.

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roybaty
03-23-2004, 06:27 AM
What are you strafing soft (trucks, cars, ect) or hard (tanks, armoured vehicles) targets. I have no problems strafing trucks. When I strafe I set the convergence high, around 500-600 in a P47, lest I become a lawn dart. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
.50 suck because :
-sound is lame
-dispersion is way too high
.50 is good because:
-makes you aim better

.50 were never good in IL2.Try to straff a convoi and see what I mean. Is unbelieveable but I have better results with light MG oon the F4 than in the Jug.Seriously,they have to look at it. If they don't , np , I'm already used to this dispersion

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-------------- QUICK SPECS --------------

-------------- HARDWARE --------------

MOTHERBOARD: Asus A7N266c
PROCESSOR: AMD XP2000@1.7 Ghz
SOUNDCARD: SB Live, Gamer 5.1
VIDEO CARD: PNY nVidia Ti4400/128
RAM: 1 Gig 2100 DDR
HOTAS 1: Thrustmaster COUGAR
HOTAS 2: Saitek X36
PEDALS: CH Pro Pedals USB
OTHER INPUT: Track IR2


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VOICE COMMAND: Shoot 1.6
DX Ver: 9b

Zayets
03-23-2004, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by roybaty:
What are you strafing soft (trucks, cars, ect) or hard (tanks, armoured vehicles) targets. I have no problems strafing trucks. When I strafe I set the convergence high, around 500-600 in a P47, lest I become a lawn dart. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
.50 suck because :
-sound is lame
-dispersion is way too high
.50 is good because:
-makes you aim better

.50 were never good in IL2.Try to straff a convoi and see what I mean. Is unbelieveable but I have better results with light MG oon the F4 than in the Jug.Seriously,they have to look at it. If they don't , np , I'm already used to this dispersion

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-------------- QUICK SPECS --------------

-------------- HARDWARE --------------

MOTHERBOARD: Asus A7N266c
PROCESSOR: AMD XP2000@1.7 Ghz
SOUNDCARD: SB Live, Gamer 5.1
VIDEO CARD: PNY nVidia Ti4400/128
RAM: 1 Gig 2100 DDR
HOTAS 1: Thrustmaster COUGAR
HOTAS 2: Saitek X36
PEDALS: CH Pro Pedals USB
OTHER INPUT: Track IR2


-------------- SOFTWARE --------------

OS: Win XP Pro
VOICE COMMAND: Shoot 1.6
DX Ver: 9b<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No,I'm saying that because if you come along a column in the Jug, the spread is so high that in a pass you have less results than if you doo it with other weapons,lighter. But i'm used to fly what they give me.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg

NegativeGee
03-23-2004, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
The smoke stack you see in the screenshots was in convergance. Its an error in the M2 browning that causes this spread.

Also note. The Ho-103 is a Japanese copy of the Browning M2, but has 5x the accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the Ho-103 a straight copy of the M2?

I know it was re-engineered to fire a lower powered cartridge.

Anyone know more about the Ho-103's development?

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

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Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

BlitzpigGroucho
03-23-2004, 08:14 AM
Ach! That's why!

I had been thinging that they were modelling bullets made by Nerf!

http://home.bak.rr.com/bimmerbob/images/BP%20GROUCHO.jpg

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-23-2004, 08:21 AM
Dispersion of the M2 is blatantly OFF...period.

I don't want it changed because I want "my" plane to be the best or any other garbage like that. The energy of the .50's seems about right but the dispersion is (and has been) an issue that is simply modeled wrong.

With all due respect to Oleg and Co. I love this sim and appreciate the enjoyment I've had with their ingenuity and mad programming skillz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

I realize this isn't in ORR and likely won't be viewed, but even a small bone (like a 50% reduction in dispersion) would be appreciated, realistic, and ...well... accurate. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

BlitzpigGroucho
03-23-2004, 12:09 PM
Guns by Browning.

http://www.flightjournal.com/images/articles/mustang/loading_lg.jpg

Ammo by Nerf.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/front/nerf-ammo2.jpg

http://home.bak.rr.com/bimmerbob/images/BP%20GROUCHO.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BpGemini
03-23-2004, 12:52 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/P-39_BlitzPig_Sig_01.jpg
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adlabs6
03-23-2004, 02:14 PM
I did a simple test to determine how the MG shells were patterned with each individual trigger pull. Each color dot was fired from the same trigger pull. I fired four times in each plane.

B-239:
http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/B-239.GIF

Ki-84:
http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/Ki84.GIF

G6 Late:
http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/G6Late.GIF

I tried some shots with other planes, but I don't have time now to edit them together like this. The Ki-84 is quite a marksman. Again, just a simplistic test, nothing scientific at all.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
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Gibbage1
03-23-2004, 02:33 PM
The Japanese Army Ho-103 was a copy of the Browning .50. The copy was lighter and had a faster rate of fire, but it also fired a smaller round, with a cartridge case 81mm long instead of the 99mm of the Browning. The Japanese Navy also copied the Browning, to create the Type 3, but in typical style it chose to use different ammunition. The 13.2mm calibre was the same as used by Hotchkiss anti-aircraft guns, although the 99mm cartridge case was almost identical to that of the Browning. The Navy also used the Type 2, which was a copy of the MG131, retaining the dimensions of its 13 x 64B ammunition, but with percussion firing instead of electrical ignition.

The Japanese copied a LOT of US hardware. The engine in the Zero fighter is a direct copy of the P&W R-1830 engine. In fact, all of todays Zero fighter's are restored with R-1830 but 1. Its a very easy mount. Just invent the engine and it fits!

Ho-103
http://www.sam.hi-ho.ne.jp/ki-44/image2/A-1Gun2.gif

Browning M2
http://pelrec.no.sapo.pt/images/fotos%20mat/browning%2012%207.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
The smoke stack you see in the screenshots was in convergance. Its an error in the M2 browning that causes this spread.

Also note. The Ho-103 is a Japanese copy of the Browning M2, but has 5x the accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the Ho-103 a straight copy of the M2?

I know it was re-engineered to fire a lower powered cartridge.

Anyone know more about the Ho-103's development?

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by Gibbage1 on Tue March 23 2004 at 01:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by Gibbage1 on Tue March 23 2004 at 01:42 PM.]

BS87
03-23-2004, 03:08 PM
Convergence seems to be a big issue with .50cal. 200m seems fine for me on the p51, but its horrilbe on the P38. The P38 especailly seems to need the right convergence settings, or you will be nowhere near your target. It also shakes a bit much for something designed around a 37mm cannon. I mean, just the 4 .50cals shake it bad, you think since it was supposed to have a 37mm, .50s wou;dn't shake it like it had jumping beans in it.

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RedDeth
03-23-2004, 03:37 PM
DUDE!!! ADLABS your test shows it all. thanks for that.

oleg spreads out the 50 ammo ridiculously far~~~ nuff said that test shows the 50 is being porked

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adlabs6
03-23-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
DUDE!!! ADLABS your test shows it all. thanks for that.

oleg spreads out the 50 ammo ridiculously far~~~ nuff said that test shows the 50 is being porked <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I does look like it. If you look closely at the way it works out, 50% of the hits are at a wider spread. The pink and blue hit tight, but randomly around the center. The green and red hit much farther apart, and just as "random" in location.

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johann63
03-23-2004, 05:56 PM
I hope Oleg reads this post and sees a bunch of long time, devoted IL2 flyers that can poke his ribs a little but truly just want to understand the game more and reveal potential improvments.

If some of the gossip I hear is true and a pacific game will be created by Oleg (which would be wonderful), image all of those USAAF and Navy planes flying around with .5 cals and the results they would get if this continued. Uberness is not the goal, equality is.

BlitzPig_johann

AFJ_Locust
03-23-2004, 06:00 PM
!+)

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Gibbage1
03-23-2004, 07:18 PM
FYI. I have a 14-15 page thread in the ORR about the spread of the M2 Browning. Lots of interesting info in there if you wanna check it out. You can miss it! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

P.S. All US aircraft have the same wide spread. No matter if its a P-39 Q-10 with 2 nose mounted MG's or the P-47 with 8.

LEXX_Luthor
03-23-2004, 07:29 PM
And the Italian Bredas too, right Gibbage? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
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:
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Gibbage1
03-23-2004, 07:44 PM
Dont know yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
And the Italian Bredas too, right Gibbage? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
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_"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..."_ ~Bearcat99
_"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age"_ ~ElAurens
:
_"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore_!_"_ ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BlindHuck
03-24-2004, 12:00 AM
The 0.50's are ACCURATELY modelled!!! Low bid chineese ammo and Bangladeshi barrels (unchromed, but with optional heat treatment) were routinely used in the field by ALL allied aircrews. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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FA_Whisky
03-24-2004, 02:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dispersion of the M2 is blatantly OFF...period.

I don't want it changed because I want "my" plane to be the best or any other garbage like that. The energy of the .50's seems about right but the dispersion is (and has been) an issue that is simply modeled wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looking at the two mg's from the yak9U and the yak3 you will notice that they go straight from about a 1000 meters. The .50's on a P39 will go straight for about 300 meters. (gibbage alsready proofed this in his thread.)
Oleg might have a good reason for this. Something like: "the 50call where mounted with very soft rubber suspension witch made them move a lot when they fired"
Anyway, the way i see it is that the P51d should have 2 "streems" of 3 .50's bullets going straight till about 1000 meters. These two "streems" meet at convergence.
Maybe Oleg can give a little commecnt on this?

FA_Whisky
03-24-2004, 05:56 PM
bumb, anyone can find the other topic on this? The one Gibbage1 posted his pictures of the other mg's in.

Chuck_Older
03-24-2004, 06:03 PM
The weapons that are wing mounted should converge at, well, their convergence. I don't understand what you mean, Whisky

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Snyde-Dastardly
03-24-2004, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
The smoke stack you see in the screenshots was in convergance. Its an error in the M2 browning that causes this spread.

Also note. The Ho-103 is a Japanese copy of the Browning M2, but has 5x the accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to agree with Gibage on this one. The Flat trajectory of the 50cal is stumping. Hell thats why they still use it today, even as sniper rifles.
From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/Green_Hell.bmp

Gibbage1
03-25-2004, 01:24 AM
Here.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=979109092

The good stuff is on page 1 and page 6. Also some interesing stuff on 17-20. Its quickly becomming a "FW-190 Bar" thread. But nobody seems to disagree that the M2 spread needs to be fixed. Even in the legendary FW-190 thread there were people who disagreed. The only persone who does not agree that the M2 should be more accurate is Oleg. Go figure hay?

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
bumb, anyone can find the other topic on this? The one Gibbage1 posted his pictures of the other mg's in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FA_Whisky
03-25-2004, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The weapons that are wing mounted should converge at, well, their convergence. I don't understand what you mean, Whisky <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, what is happening now is that the bullets go up, down, left and right. Look at the yak9U from above and fire. You will see a streem of bullets go straight for a long time. This should also be the case in the P51d but than with 2 streams with tracers of 3 bullets on each side. Maybe easier to explain with a picture, but i cannot host one.

Doesn't anyone have ballistics data of these guns?

DaBallz
03-25-2004, 03:17 AM
Guys, you will never get it.
The flight models and gun damage models
are as anti American as are the flight models.
The german 8mm light machine guns have
far more effect than the .50 cal!
The .303 in the Spit has also got more
punch than the .50....

The .50 has four times the kinetic energy
of a .303, and it's boderline usless.

Combat accounts seem to place the .50 cal as
being very effective in shooting down fighters.
But in Olegs world American fighters are
over weight, sluggish and stall prone.
Add to that the .50 cal is less effective
than a German 8mm or .303 british.

Being anti American is stylish in Europe right now.
Perhaps this explains this discrepency.

da...

Zayets
03-25-2004, 05:31 AM
Cold War again.
Check the Gibbage's post on ORR. Is 17 pages by now, and I believe this is an issue that has to be fixed. However, I'm already used with the huge .50 spread. I have played last night with various weapon. So I started o straff a column n the road. Every other weapon draw a thin line on the road where P-38 painted the whole road width is a very dispersed pattern. I don't mind, for sure!, if the pattern stays this way but being concentrated in every damn point of the dispersion rectangle!
Can you imagine? instant death for anyone attaccked with a pair of fifties , hehehe.
But,deccision is to Oleg, and I will not even try to interfere,I have had my say. Fifties need re-work.

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg

FA_Whisky
03-25-2004, 05:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Can you imagine? instant death for anyone attaccked with a pair of fifties , hehehe.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think thats the problem. Look at how effective the 2x12.7 mm MG (UBS) fron the yak9U are. Making .50's like that would mean that its at least as powerfull as a single mk108.....
Instant death for everything you shoot at, making the game less "playeble".

Skii_
03-25-2004, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Guys, you will never get it.
The flight models and gun damage models
are as anti American as are the flight models.
The german 8mm light machine guns have
far more effect than the .50 cal!
The .303 in the Spit has also got more
punch than the .50....

The .50 has four times the kinetic energy
of a .303, and it's boderline usless.

Combat accounts seem to place the .50 cal as
being very effective in shooting down fighters.
But in Olegs world American fighters are
over weight, sluggish and stall prone.
Add to that the .50 cal is less effective
than a German 8mm or .303 british.

Being anti American is stylish in Europe right now.
Perhaps this explains this discrepency.

da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Utter tosh.

Yeah I really think Oleg sat down and thought hard about how he could piss America off this time

There has been no problem with American planes that hasn't been experienced with just about every other flyable from every other country in FB.

I suppose then Oleg was in a bad mood with Germany when he designed the broken gunsight and pilot kills with the current 190..

http://www.skiisworld.plus.com/pilot2%20copy.jpg
XP Pro / 2200XP / Fx5950 Ultra, 1Gb Pc2700 DDR / Abit KD7A Kt400 / Carppy old case

BlitzPig_DDT
03-25-2004, 07:17 AM
Sorry Skii, but Da Ballz is on to something, even though he was a bit too blunt about it.

The long and short of it is, soviet planes were made to shine. It was done via a series of minute tweaks, little FM here, little DM there, little Guns for good measure.... When taken collectively it makes a big difference, even though in isolation none of them area big deal.

Regarding FM, it was made for soviet planes and tactics. Pure and simple. Just turns out that Japanese planes and tactics are similar enough that their planes shine too.

This was all intentional. The only question was how it was intentional. Was it planned with full knowledge and for the express reason of screwing one side? Probably not would be my bet. Oleg seems to truly feel that his Super-Secret-Soviet-Documentation-That-Proves-The-Whole-World-Wrong (tm) is bar none the most accurate there is. Even when it goes against all of the rest of the world's views on given aircraft. If the soviets liked, feared, or respected it, it's a kick *** plane here. If they disliked it as a fighter, it's only good for ground attack here (for the most part, some tooth and nail fighting has gotten some positive changes made over a few patches).

From what I hear from insiders involved in LOMAC beta testing, it's a similar but different situation over there too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

JohnnyRook
03-25-2004, 07:29 AM
In some fights dispersion is a pro..

When fighting a zero in say a P40 dispersion is my friend..


just my 2 cents

Johnny Rook

Zayets
03-25-2004, 07:36 AM
Don't ever think to attack an He111 in one of those planes:
-P40
-P51
-P47 without rockets
-P38 without rocketts.You may think the 20 is aan asset.Hmmmmm...
-B-239

On the other hand,try to go against with one of these toys:
-P39 any model
-P63 but this is a P39 on steroids, so is pretty obvious it'll be succesfull http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg

Gibbage1
03-25-2004, 12:00 PM
So what your saying is to keep the .50 cal's Nerfed so the Luftwhiners can keep there easy lifestyle online? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Ya. Game balance thats it. Because we all know how the Jug can out turn and roll everything. Now, if it can hit hard that would throw the balanced off compleatly!!!

Look. We all know that the US aircraft were not the best. But at least they had great ammounts of firepower for when they DID get behind an enemy. In IL2, they are still not the best aircraft, but now you need to stay on someones tail and hammer away at them for ages to get a kill. Thats not historical. Every US aircraft kill I have read only required short birst's. "Long" birst's consisted of 2 or 3 seconds of trigger time. Those were for Ju-52's in North Africa by P-40's and P-38's. Every fighter took 1 or 2 seconds if it was in convergance.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Can you imagine? instant death for anyone attaccked with a pair of fifties , hehehe.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think thats the problem. Look at how effective the 2x12.7 mm MG (UBS) fron the yak9U are. Making .50's like that would mean that its at least as powerfull as a single mk108.....
Instant death for everything you shoot at, making the game less "playeble".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by Gibbage1 on Thu March 25 2004 at 11:20 AM.]

NegativeGee
03-25-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
Don't ever think to attack an He111 in one of those planes:
-P40
-P51
-P47 without rockets
-P38 without rocketts.You may think the 20 is aan asset.Hmmmmm...
-B-239
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were you keeping a straight face when you typed this? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

[This message was edited by NegativeGee on Thu March 25 2004 at 11:33 AM.]

DaBallz
03-25-2004, 05:08 PM
The Soviet 12.7mm is nearly identical to the US .50cal
in muzzle energy and velocity. At 1,000m
the US .50 retains a bit more energy.
For practical purposes the potential damage
is the same.

----what's wrong with this picture?----

Sorry for being blunt but the US fighters
did very well in the great patriotic war.
The .50 cal was so lame that it was used
as an air to air weapon right through the
Korean conflict.

By the way, those over weight inferior US
piston engined fighters scored a 3:1 kill ratio
over Russian La's and Yak's.

I ask Oleg to be a bit more balanced, Soviet
fighters were not as fantastic as modeled.
American fighters and guns were a whole lot
better than this sim depicts.

Da...

Bull_dog_
03-25-2004, 06:16 PM
Somewhere I read the Jug had a 5 to 1 kill ratio... I think it may have been in a flight journal magazine...

If that is true then .... how accurate is the FB modelling?

I'm glad to see some pro american aircraft posts...I see alot of rationalizing about why this plane performs and that one doesn't...

The machine gun thing is a real problem and it negatively impacts the performance of M2 armed aircraft (that is US aircraft).

Some would say that US aircraft weren't that good...I tend to disagree as I think they were great...in fact, all successful designs (that being aircraft with positive kill ratios) had to be great at something or they would have been shot down! The rest is tactics. The .50's were used on WWII aircraft and Korean aircraft...they were devestating... The US aircraft we spend most time talking about (Mustang, Lightning, and Jug) were all faster than their contemporary enemies...they could dive faster and had good/great firepower...good or great range and in the case of the Jug and Lightning they were legendary in their toughness. The lightning suffered at High altitide, but in all medium to low level theaters (PTO, CBI and MTO), they scored positive kill ratios.

The tragedy in this situation is that the Soviet and German machineguns were modelled first and the M2 was largely modelled and refined after the Soviet/germans... the significance of that lies in the damage modelling that is tuned to the hitting power of Soviet/German guns.... throw in an M2 with high dispersion and you have an underpowered machine gun....

I am certain that if all the machineguns in this sim shook then many of these threads wouldn't exist.

The guns need fix'n ...

HellToupee
03-25-2004, 06:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
So what your saying is to keep the .50 cal's Nerfed so the Luftwhiners can keep there easy lifestyle online? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Ya. Game balance thats it. Because we all know how the Jug can out turn and roll everything. Now, if it can hit hard that would throw the balanced off compleatly!!!

Look. We all know that the US aircraft were not the best. But at least they had great ammounts of firepower for when they DID get behind an enemy. In IL2, they are still not the best aircraft, but now you need to stay on someones tail and hammer away at them for ages to get a kill. Thats not historical. Every US aircraft kill I have read only required short birst's. "Long" birst's consisted of 2 or 3 seconds of trigger time. Those were for Ju-52's in North Africa by P-40's and P-38's. Every fighter took 1 or 2 seconds if it was in convergance.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Can you imagine? instant death for anyone attaccked with a pair of fifties , hehehe.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think thats the problem. Look at how effective the 2x12.7 mm MG (UBS) fron the yak9U are. Making .50's like that would mean that its at least as powerfull as a single mk108.....
Instant death for everything you shoot at, making the game less "playeble".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by Gibbage1 on Thu March 25 2004 at 11:20 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

weight of firewise the p47s 8 .50s is close slightly greater than the spits .50s and 20mms spread over 8 wing guns, tho the dispersion so far looks to be quite off i wouldnt expect 190 like firepower (tho you might with the whole mg 151 being nerfed) if its fixed.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

Gibbage1
03-25-2004, 06:26 PM
Ya. The old 20MM vs .50 cal debate. Lets not go through this OK? Lets just get the .50's fixed.

Doctor_Mabutu
03-25-2004, 06:36 PM
Yeah. .50 sucked, thats why they were in every American plane, American tank, on the battlefield from WWII - Korea.

While German interceptor aircraft weapons were designed specifically to shoot down bombers. Americans found .50 quite effective against fighters.

The most rediculous aspect of thier modeling is two fold in the P-38. Not only is the damage undermodeled, the wild spraying of ammo from guns mounted right next to each other is insane and clearly either a program mistake, or bias against American planes and weaponry.

I've bought IL2, FB, and now AEP, and they are all great sims, the best available. However as an American I feel like I'm being fecked. I bought the add-on specifically to enjoy the P-38's. And they just suck with nerfed weaponry.

kthxbye 8)

Zayets
03-26-2004, 12:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
Were you keeping a straight face when you typed this? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm ready for a challenge. Set up 2 He111 in QMB and take one of those planes and try to down them. From above,dead 6,lateral, whatever you want. Didn't tried head-ons, I'm not that good.So,if you can go home with a good engine then you're right. If not, I'll give ya my Chaika skin,OK?

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg

03-26-2004, 01:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Being anti American is stylish in Europe right now.
Perhaps this explains this discrepency.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bah. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif Oleg will have to explain this new stylishness to the Finns. The Brewster currently suffers with M2 Brownings also.