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View Full Version : Honest opinion - shooting down twin-engined aircraft



Bula
09-13-2008, 11:02 AM
Just curious about folks' thoughts on this issue. Twice now people have complained because I shot down twin-engined a/c that already had one engine smoking or flaming. Here are the two scenarios:

1. A damaged P38 had managed to clear the furball and was making its way home, so I did the best I could to bring it down with my Macchi (and ended up in a collision when it pulled up at the same time I did). The P38's starboard engine had just stopped flaming but was still smoking. The pilot was all p.o.'d. He said it was poor behavior on my part to shoot at an a/c with a smoking engine.

2. A Ju88's starboard engine had been torched by an A20. I initially started diving on the A20, not realizing that it was friendly because of the distance between us; as soon as I saw what was what, I adjusted and flew onward to the Ju88. Unfortunately, this gave the Junkers time to dump its bombs on my carrier, which promptly sank. It then executed a turn to starboard and began beating its retreat homeward. I caught it in a deflection shot as it turned and it went down. The A20 pilot accused me of kill stealing. On open chat, he wrote: "Everyone knows 88s explode once an engine has caught fire." From my own experience with 88s, I haven't always found this to be the case - I shut down the rad, turn off the engine, and hope for the best. Sometimes I get home, sometimes I don't.

My argument is this: the point of most missions is to destroy the ground targets and shoot down as many enemy a/c as possible. If a twin-engined a/c is still flying, you should drop it. Period. I have no problem with other pilots downing twin-engined birds that I've shot up and have never cried foul when this has happened. But maybe this mentality is wrong? I thought I'd post here to see what others think. If it's poor form, I'll stop doing it.

rnzoli
09-13-2008, 11:50 AM
your question can be answered in many ways

a) you are right, get those suckers, they are fair game, they should be left alone only when BOTH engines sustained damage

b) your are right, but considering how few people actually fly twins due to their lower manouverability , and how much they needed for immersion, let them go with one engine damaged by someone else, so they will keep flying them next time around (BUT: make sure to kill both engines when you go at them)


I actually like the third option: since on the servers I fly the scores are team-based (all shared), it does not matter the slighest, who makes the kill, as long as it is made. I just had this situation 3 hours ago, smoked a Bf-110 engine, thick black smoke from right engine, and disengaged, because I flew a yak-1b, so I had to preserve ammo for later engagements. Another pilot with an A-20 went after the slowing 110, and started to shoot it up. I didn't bother at all, because I rather watched the area for incoming 109s and let the A-20 do the dirty job, than the opposite http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's amazing how much this kill-stealing bull**** is reduced with team point sharing...

berg417448
09-13-2008, 12:12 PM
"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!"

LovroSL
09-13-2008, 12:27 PM
Kill stealind and sholder shooting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Just today I was in a hurry by two zekes. Both shooting like crazy, hitting me now and then until suddenly I spotted a fireball behind me, shulder shooter tore off the wing of his teamate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Still got nailed before homebase though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

(great team, 10 planes passed me and not one helped, since they were all chasing a lone smoking bogie.)

squareusr
09-13-2008, 12:30 PM
disengaged, because I flew a yak-1b, so I had to preserve ammo for later engagements. Another pilot with an A-20 went after the slowing 110, and started to shoot it up.

Well done both of you, using the A20 as some kind of external ammo container for the Yak http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DKoor
09-13-2008, 12:39 PM
P-38 is fire friendly aircraft... it's a known bug/feature. You can drive that thing for a long time on fire and it sometimes flames out.
Ju-88 on the other hand will usually explode (fuel tank) soon after fire starts. And it also drains fuel like mad when thick black smoke appears.

WOLFPLAYER2007
09-13-2008, 12:58 PM
Thats why i do my best to shot down the enemy ac in the first pass, i aim on the wing, exatly on the airlerons, if you dont rip his wing off he will fall it anyway, take out the airlerons and you have 95% of sure that the enemy will go down, both online and offline.

Xiolablu3
09-13-2008, 02:00 PM
I am often courtious to the guy who has put in all the effort to get the plane damaged and let him finish it.

If this guy has done all the work and it just needs finishing off, then I will always leave it to him. After all I didnt earn that kill, the person who outflew that enemy and damaged him badly did.


To finish off this enemy when hes no danger to anyone else would just be points whoring IMO.

You would do better to cover the shooter from above from other enemies rather than both focus on this one damamged enemy.

Jaws2002
09-13-2008, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DuxCorvan
09-13-2008, 02:11 PM
I'm an immersion buff, and sincerely, I don't think that in RL, there were things like "kill stealing". Everything was valid while the enemy was destroyed and you didn't put your buddies at risk.

These 'score' online things reveal just what this really is and why I don't like online gaming.

They have to change the way they assign the points for shooting down planes, or get rid of it completely -at least in coops. Or we'll have this issue forever: people insanely trying to earn or preserve their points instead of their -virtual- lives.

K_Freddie
09-13-2008, 02:32 PM
You can actually share a kill.. just as they do in RL.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Odemkirtariy
09-13-2008, 03:59 PM
Man I witnessed it, today.
On spitvs109.

gorkyporky
09-13-2008, 04:44 PM
I really dont mind someone kill stealing from me, but i tend to frown when someone is shoulder shooting behind me and hiting me in the proces http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. But i usualy let flaming/smoking aircraft go, because i have far too much knowledge of how frustrating it is to have 3 rookies behind you wasting their ammo, while you cant show them cause your engine is barely even alive and you are just trying to get home to your virtual fammily...

Uufflakke
09-13-2008, 04:48 PM
On these forums we discuss a lot about improving the game by using mods, changing video settings, conf.ini, upgrading videocard etc. all for immersion to give us a kind of suggestion of a real aircombat. But as soon people go online some simmers behave like little kids who play marbles.

In RL war is about surviving, killing or to be killed and they didn't whine about shoulder shooting, kill-stealing, shooting down parachutes, vulching etc. (well, maybe some Aces did.)

But on the other hand it is just a game and online they all have their own rules so I obey them.

Like today I witnessed both situations:
I shot one engine of a Bf-110 supposing it would hit the ground after seeing its burning engine but a few minutes later I still saw him flying and gave it it's final bullets. To me nothing wrong with that.

It happened to me as well. I left the furball with a black smoketrail and try to land on a strip and out of the blue comes an enemy who showed me the black screen finally http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif


In another case today I saw a steep diving and spinning Yak so I followed him and hit him from a long distance. At a closer look I noticed it was already missing one wing so somebody else must have deprived him of his left wing. A few seconds later I saw this message that I was kill-stealing.

Just like whining about getting shot while taking off. If vulching is allowed so no problem I guess. Just press Escape and Refly or start from another airfield.

Bula
09-13-2008, 05:08 PM
"You would do better to cover the shooter from above from other enemies rather than both focus on this one damamged enemy."

I should've specified: in both instances the enemy a/c had outdistanced any pursuers. In the case of the Ju, he was far enough ahead of the A20 to set up his bombing run without any problems. The only reason I caught him in my F4F was because of E built up in a fairly steep descent.

I don't usually engage enemy a/c if they're being pursued. I stand off and check for other enemy a/c. I'm not a stat/kill hog, either: anyone can check my stats on Spits vs 109s to see that - I go by BubbaFactor there. And I don't fly exclusively for one side or the other: whichever team needs more pilots to even things out is where you'll find me.

I do my best to be courteous, even when other pilots jump in front of me to take shots at whatever I'm shooting at. Because I like flying Italian a/c, this happens a lot: I guess 109 and 190 jockeys get tired of watching me "play with the food" (it takes forever for those Bredas to bring anything down, unless you kill the pilot or hit a critical part of the engine).

I can't defend myself on Teamspeak because my wife gets REALLY p.o.'d. when I use it (we live in a small one-bedroom, so she can hear everything I'm doing). Reading/starting posts is the only way I can learn about the community's preferences, so I appreciate everyone's responses to this query.

M_Gunz
09-13-2008, 05:15 PM
There's historic comments on fighter pilots at least in the USAAF being inveterate whiners.

Rjel
09-13-2008, 06:18 PM
I flew with Bula way back when. He was neither a shoulder shooter or even one who'd ever been accused of being a kill stealer. At least not in the little group we used to fly in. Ahh those were the days.

copet
09-13-2008, 06:25 PM
If they are a threat, kill them. Thats the basic rule. Don't endanger your own team by flying right next to them, though.

arthursmedley
09-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:

It's amazing how much this kill-stealing bull**** is reduced with team point sharing...

+1
Hopefully SoW will do something about this.
Get credited with 1/2 a kill as in RL?

WTE_Galway
09-14-2008, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I'm an immersion buff, and sincerely, I don't think that in RL, there were things like "kill stealing". Everything was valid while the enemy was destroyed and you didn't put your buddies at risk.

These 'score' online things reveal just what this really is and why I don't like online gaming.

They have to change the way they assign the points for shooting down planes, or get rid of it completely -at least in coops. Or we'll have this issue forever: people insanely trying to earn or preserve their points instead of their -virtual- lives.

Online furballs will be airquake even if you get rid of the points. If the people who fly those servers are trying to recreate anything at all its a Hollywood movie.

IRL there were shared kills but in the situation described above the original pilot would not have bothered even claiming. Same with the points that you get randomly 5 minutes after a combat because some noob crashes a damaged plane on landing - again in real life that was in no way a confirmed kill.

It is unfortunate there is no way of having the points work on an actual confirmed basis. For example you only get points if the plane is observed to crash by a friendly aircraft or ground troops.

Not that I fly online any more so it doesn't really effect me one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LW_lcarp
09-15-2008, 09:20 AM
Never have liked the points system in IL2 IMHO.

Secondly like others have said if they are not a factor in finishing the objective then forget about them. If they are still smoking and or on fire and getting ready to blast a team mate let em have it.

And Ive also had it happen where you have 3 baddies on your six and nobody will assist cause the other 10 of your team mates are chasing a smoking baddy. And all you can say is thanks for the help guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

stugumby
09-15-2008, 08:49 PM
Always good to get the differing points of view, and attempts at chivalry etc.

My take after 24yrs military, 1.5 wars etc is kill them, shoot low, fast and without mercy.

War is not a game to be played sportingly, a hesitation or moment of weakness will lead to your death or the deaths of your crew, fellow soldiers etc.

Rules of engagement and interaction are there to make do gooders feel better about themselves, politically correct occasions demand their use. Then when the bullets stop flying they can say we were fired upon first, as if it helps them with their conscience, guess shooting some dweeb with a 120mm cannon isnt fair, so we call in an airstrike and let the airforce do some plinking with expensive precision guided weapons. TWADDLE.

Tanks arent considered destroyed until they explode and the turret comes off, no reason an aircraft should be different, better to over service a target than not to engage it.

Not much different in the air when it comes down to it,letting a smoker get away just means he will be back to kill you later.

As far as kill stealing and shoulder shooting, look at some ww2 videos, theres one with hellcats on just about everything on the history channel, 1 hellcat is shooting at a zero and bammo another cuts across his line of fire, and he never lets off the trigger, you can see pieces flying and smoke from other hellcat.

Its up to the shooter to decide when enoughs enough, shared kills means I get todays you get tommorrows credit if you bother keeping score.

Fighter pilots have been big ego types, tell me an organization that dosnt track and reward by points, kills, tons shipped, ships sunk, miles hauled, you name it, somebody somewhere is keeping score.

rant complete; feel free to steal my kills, i count those as opportunities to learn.

Xiolablu3
09-17-2008, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Bula:
"You would do better to cover the shooter from above from other enemies rather than both focus on this one damamged enemy."

I should've specified: in both instances the enemy a/c had outdistanced any pursuers. In the case of the Ju, he was far enough ahead of the A20 to set up his bombing run without any problems. The only reason I caught him in my F4F was because of E built up in a fairly steep descent.

I don't usually engage enemy a/c if they're being pursued. I stand off and check for other enemy a/c. I'm not a stat/kill hog, either: anyone can check my stats on Spits vs 109s to see that - I go by BubbaFactor there. And I don't fly exclusively for one side or the other: whichever team needs more pilots to even things out is where you'll find me.

I do my best to be courteous, even when other pilots jump in front of me to take shots at whatever I'm shooting at. Because I like flying Italian a/c, this happens a lot: I guess 109 and 190 jockeys get tired of watching me "play with the food" (it takes forever for those Bredas to bring anything down, unless you kill the pilot or hit a critical part of the engine).

I can't defend myself on Teamspeak because my wife gets REALLY p.o.'d. when I use it (we live in a small one-bedroom, so she can hear everything I'm doing). Reading/starting posts is the only way I can learn about the community's preferences, so I appreciate everyone's responses to this query.


SOrry mate, that wasnt directed at you, it was just a general comment to everyone. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I_KG100_Prien
09-17-2008, 05:22 PM
To stugumby:

You are correct in what you say- War is a merciless enterprise where often times showing quarter could come back to bite you..

However- some of the things that we gripe about in regards to the point scoring system online.. Is it leads to people doing things that are hard to justify anyone doing anywhere but in an online computer game.

For example-

I was flying a sortie in an He-111. Shipping strike and I chose to bomb from altitude rather than go in low and skip bomb/torpedo. Just after I released my payload and started turning for home I was set upon by a couple of spitfires.

Not surprising at all, and really my goose was cooked. Plane gets all shot up- aileron controls gone- elevator and rudder shot off.. Both engines smoking and to top it all.. My bomber had entered into a picture perfect flat spin.

I bail out and decide to hang in my chute for a minute to watch the fighting going on. What do I see?

A Spitfire comes diving in on this empty, smoking, riddled, spinning-out-of-control bomber and fires upon it... Pulls up, comes around and engages again- this time the wing comes off.

I at first wondered why someone would waste their ammunition like that. Then it hit me: Because it was some dingbat who wanted to pad his score/stats. Did it matter that my plane was no longer a threat of any kind? Apparently not.

This is on top of all other manner of things I see being a bomber guy- Can't count how many times I've smoked someones engine- A situation where real combat pilots would make the choice to try to make it home to fight again. However since this is a video game and quite a few people don't give a sh*t about landing- They hang in there happily blasting away all the while I'm filling their crate full of lead.

Many times have I seen 1) Kill message for fighter pilot shooting my bomber down.

2) Very close after you see "Fighter Pilot has Bailed out" and a kill message for me shooting them down.

But- that's because it's a game and nobody is really fighting for their lives. Because if it were- We'd not see nearly the amount things that merely equate to "Gamers gaming the game"

Aaron_GT
09-17-2008, 05:45 PM
If a twin is smoking but is still incoming and hasn't jettisoned its bombs and isn't being swatted down by three or four planes already I will engage. It can take a few planes on etc to get it downed, given the time required to set up attacks on anything with decent defensive armament so I have no problem even if there are a few fighters on it (assuming no other threats). If it dumps bombs or is flying away, it's not a priority.

Aaron_GT
09-17-2008, 05:47 PM
And Ive also had it happen where you have 3 baddies on your six and nobody will assist cause the other 10 of your team mates are chasing a smoking baddy. And all you can say is thanks for the help guys

I try to help if I can. Even if I can't set up a decent attack I find firing over the shoulder of the attacker can make them think better of their attack and the break off, saving your buddy nearly as effectively as shooting the attacker down.

Sillius_Sodus
09-17-2008, 10:05 PM
Bula,

What was the mission goal of your coop? If it was to defend your carrier then you acted correctly, albeit a bit late, not that I'm blaming you for that.

The mission comes first!

Altamov_Steppes
09-17-2008, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

'...why did I paint Mickey Mouse on my aircraft?...I liked Mickey Mouse...'
General Adolph Garland

Ritter_Cuda
09-17-2008, 11:53 PM
this is a sim and a game to me. I let them limp home for two reasons
1) if they are trying to limp home they are not trying to shot me or my team mates. the other team is one player down
2)it is a great thrill to land a beat up plane. Anybody can hit the bail and then hit the refly and be back in the fight in 2 sec. those that are trying to fly home are doing it for the challange.

Afterhours
09-18-2008, 11:52 AM
If the pilot is not around and still engaging that started the attack on the other aircraft, no matter how many engines is has, then shoot it out of the sky.

If the pilot is around who started the initial attack on the target and he is still engaging it, then let him do his job. YOUR job in that case is to cover him and look around for other threats.

Lots of aircraft in this sim will fly all the way home with an engine smoking or even flaming, so shoot them until you see them crash.

There will always be whining, many will whine if you shoot them down no matter what the circumstances, so ignore it and do your job.

Hoatee
09-18-2008, 01:34 PM
Telepathic communication sux. It's just enemy propaganda at work which you can quite safely ignore.

Aaron_GT
09-18-2008, 04:04 PM
Yes, if you are short of things to do in a server, spot someone and wing with them, but let them know you are so they don't think you are going to shoulder shoot or team kill!

Darth_Reagan
09-22-2008, 07:50 AM
If it's a mission based server it depends on whether they are inbound to the target or not. If they are ground pounders and still have bombs then nobody should hold back under any circumstances. However if they are returning home you should leave them alone if they are damaged in my opinion. I fly the bombers a lot but when I end up against a side made up of 90% fighters and they're all after me on my return journey because I'm an easy target I just get bored and go and find something else to play. It's fun trying to get a wounded bomber home but if 4 fighters turn up it's like watching hyenas tearing a wounded elephant apart.

Jex_TE
09-22-2008, 08:41 AM
...I fly the bombers a lot but when I end up against a side made up of 90% fighters and they're all after me on my return journey because I'm an easy target...

Then perhaps the fighters on your side should escort you, that way they won't have to fly around endlessly looking for targets because your such a fighter-magnet.

Also, if the server is missions based, don't they also include a max plane count? Leaving any aircraft to limp home means they aren't down one. Most servers seem to run a teamspeak server so perhaps join that to ask for escort/assistance.

If I see a bomber going out, I'll act as escort but i suck at it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PanzerAce
09-22-2008, 11:38 AM
I generally try to stay away from shooting up twins that have already been pounced, though in all fairness, if the crew bailed, it can be hard to tell, especially if they were in a trimmed flight profile.

However, I'll use my own experience as an example for when I do jump a plane that has already been shot limping for home. I was on the SoF server in a Do-335, had just bombed the airfield, shot up some guys, and was headed home. Around the base I was landing at (far from most of the battle), there was a B-25 being shot up by a teammates spitfire. The spit was down to using only MGs, and was clearly trying to get the guy not just to get a kill, but also to prevent him from touching down. Since I had plenty of 30mm and 20mm left, I asked if he wanted me to take the B-25 out. He gave me permission, broke off to pace the bomber, and I shot the bomber down. The Spit then proceded to escort me back to base (we were deep in enemy airspace by this point, and a golden bb had taken out my tractor engine).

Generally, I would not have gone after the B25, since my teammate was persuing him, however, since he was unable to get him, I offered to step in an end it.

LEBillfish
09-22-2008, 11:48 AM
Though it bugs me when I work to get an aircraft out of action to see some AI or worse live pilot finish it off....I stall say screw it...My job considering there are other enemy in the air is to get as many aircraft as possible out of action (be it rtb'g whatever), and go hurt/kill another.

However, as much as it bugs me that my sure "eventual" kills maybe 50 km out are carped....I'll still keep on doing the right thing and trying to get as many as possible out of the fight......It's not uncommon of me to cripple one, then move on to do so to another as I watch both carped...I feel for your grief really, yet everyone suffers and point *****s won't change though in the end they leave their team mates hanging (as they hunt cripples while you're having to fight fresh planes without help).

K2

Covino
09-22-2008, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Bula:
1. A damaged P38 had managed to clear the furball and was making its way home, so I did the best I could to bring it down with my Macchi (and ended up in a collision when it pulled up at the same time I did). The P38's starboard engine had just stopped flaming but was still smoking. The pilot was all p.o.'d. He said it was poor behavior on my part to shoot at an a/c with a smoking engine.


So you ignored the furball and the chance to go back and help your teammates against potent opponents, in order to shoot down a P38 which was just trying to limp home (which lets be honest, is not much of a threat even w/ both engines)... so the P38 pilot can simply hit refly and kill you/your teammates sooner rather than later?



2. A Ju88's starboard engine had been torched by an A20. I initially started diving on the A20, not realizing that it was friendly because of the distance between us; as soon as I saw what was what, I adjusted and flew onward to the Ju88. Unfortunately, this gave the Junkers time to dump its bombs on my carrier, which promptly sank. It then executed a turn to starboard and began beating its retreat homeward. I caught it in a deflection shot as it turned and it went down. The A20 pilot accused me of kill stealing. On open chat, he wrote: "Everyone knows 88s explode once an engine has caught fire." From my own experience with 88s, I haven't always found this to be the case - I shut down the rad, turn off the engine, and hope for the best. Sometimes I get home, sometimes I don't.


A retreating 88 isn't a threat in any shape or form. Killing it only serves to spawn another 88 raid agisnt you sooner, and it might spoil the other guys fun in trying to nurse the plane home.


What I'm getting at -> Killsteal whining isn't only about points... it's about people wasting resources (ammo, time, the ability to help teammates in real danger) shooting damaged planes for an e-***** regardless of whether it's helping the team.