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View Full Version : The Hellcat vs. German fighters?



actionhank1786
10-11-2004, 10:02 PM
"Two squadrons were built up in 1943, being dispatched on the HMS EMPEROR for convoy duty late in the year, where they saw no real combat. When the EMPEROR returned to Britain in early 1944, the ship was sent north in March as part of OPERATION TUNGSTEN, the attack on the German battleship TIRPITZ in its protected Norwegian fjord. The Hellcats fought in wintry weather, taking on German Bf-109Gs and FW-190As, and claiming three kills for the loss of one of their own. "
Found this on this site Air Vectors (http://www.vectorsite.net/avf6f.html#m4) and it says that the Hellcat actually saw action against 109's and 190s. Looks like people installing over FB and Aces will have quite the reward. I think taking on 190s in the Hellcat and Corsair should be quite fun

actionhank1786
10-11-2004, 10:02 PM
"Two squadrons were built up in 1943, being dispatched on the HMS EMPEROR for convoy duty late in the year, where they saw no real combat. When the EMPEROR returned to Britain in early 1944, the ship was sent north in March as part of OPERATION TUNGSTEN, the attack on the German battleship TIRPITZ in its protected Norwegian fjord. The Hellcats fought in wintry weather, taking on German Bf-109Gs and FW-190As, and claiming three kills for the loss of one of their own. "
Found this on this site Air Vectors (http://www.vectorsite.net/avf6f.html#m4) and it says that the Hellcat actually saw action against 109's and 190s. Looks like people installing over FB and Aces will have quite the reward. I think taking on 190s in the Hellcat and Corsair should be quite fun

fordfan25
10-11-2004, 10:21 PM
im more interested in how thay will do aginst the tie fighters ....uhm i mene the russian fighters lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fliger747
10-12-2004, 12:07 AM
The 1% planes for CFS3 stack up pretty well against each other in comparison. I was quite surprised that the F6F-5 was very competitive in the trials I ran.

The Hellcat had a number of positive points which don't show up well in the 'specs' which could conspire to give it a pretty good go! Tough, well armed, good RANGE (spells combat time) and offering a good view for the worlds best deflection shooters.

KIMURA
10-12-2004, 12:44 AM
Action hawk. I read somewhere (German forum)a detailed report of that 109 vs. Hellcat encounter. IIRC there were only 109ers and no 190. That 190 kill claim was done by a squadmate of Cdr.Orr, but later it was found out that this kill was an over claim.

IIRC correctly, the 1st Rotte (couple) of 109 bounced a section of Hellcats, soonly reincorced by another pair of Grummans. The 1st Hellcat fell victim to the leading 109, the 2 109s were downed afterwards in the occuring melée. The 109 were heavily outnumbered. If your interested in the detailed (including pilot's names) report I'll do some search in the German forum for that story.

MEGILE
10-12-2004, 04:39 AM
Hmm interesting.. on that site I found

"FAA Corsairs performed their first combat action on 3 April 1944, with Number 1834 Squadron flying from the HMS VICTORIOUS to help provide cover for a strike on the German super-battleship TIRPITZ in a Norwegian fjord. This was apparently the first combat operation of the Corsair off of an aircraft carrier. Further attacks on the TIRPITZ were performed in July and August 1944, with Corsairs from the HMS FORMIDABLE participating. It appears the Corsairs did not encounter aerial opposition on these raids. A confrontation between a Corsair and the tough German Focke-Wulf FW-190 would have made for an interesting fight"

So does that mean that FAA Corsairs and Hellcats were on a joint operation against the Tirpitz? with both launching from the two carriers, HMS Victorious and HMS Emperor?

I'm interested if anyone has any more information on this? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DIRTY-MAC
10-12-2004, 05:31 AM
both corsairs,hellcat,wildcats,fireflies,seafires and barracudas flew together on same missions
in norway against the Tirpitz.

csThor
10-12-2004, 05:35 AM
Some more data on the 109 vs Hellcat incident:

Claims by 10./JG 5 on May 8 1944:
3 Hellcats (2x Uffz. Hallstick, 1x Lt. Prenzler)

Just for raw data fuzzies like me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tater-SW-
10-12-2004, 08:47 AM
The FAA said 1 hellcat was lost to the LW, and another to AAA. lloks like the LW overclaimed 3:1.

tater

MEGILE
10-12-2004, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>both corsairs,hellcat,wildcats,fireflies,seafires and barracudas flew together on same missions
in norway against the Tirpitz. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cool, that should be an interesting scenario to play when Pacific Fighters is released http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

actionhank1786
10-12-2004, 09:01 AM
I can't wait to fly british corsairs!
I'm working on a british Hellcat right now too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Slick750
10-12-2004, 11:00 AM
Gemany had alot of problems and alot of propaganda to cover it up, I'd take german claims litely. By 1943 most germans knew they where failling there was even jokes like: "If you bring 5 members into the party you can leave, if you bring 12 you can leave with a certificate saying you where never in it". They claimed alot of things just to keep morale high in the population, their backbone.

csThor
10-12-2004, 11:45 AM
Kill claims as recorded by RLM and claims made by Goebbels merry band of propaganda maniacs are two different pairs of shoes. Errors can never be ruled out, but the enormous amount of bureaucracy just for confirming or denying kill claims - even till 1945 - is astonishing. I cannot verify the british losses/claims and german losses as I know of no website as http://tonywood.cjb.net for the mentioned topics.

actionhank1786
10-12-2004, 01:16 PM
All i know for sure is, Hellcats vs. German fighters is gonna make for some fun engagements.
And so just to pick your brains a bit.
Who do you think will have the advantage?
I'm thinking a Hellcat vs. a 190 will be a tough fight...but i think the Hellcat will win, simply because it's got the better turn, and the weight to dive with a 190. I'm not sure of the Hellcat's climb, so the 190 probably has it beat there.
What do you all think?

Tater-SW-
10-12-2004, 02:46 PM
I did a google search for hellcat and the date, and it mentioned the LW attack on FAA, and says the FAA lost 2 Hellcats that day, and 1 was to AAA fire.

tater

VW-IceFire
10-12-2004, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by actionhank1786:
All i know for sure is, Hellcats vs. German fighters is gonna make for some fun engagements.
And so just to pick your brains a bit.
Who do you think will have the advantage?
I'm thinking a Hellcat vs. a 190 will be a tough fight...but i think the Hellcat will win, simply because it's got the better turn, and the weight to dive with a 190. I'm not sure of the Hellcat's climb, so the 190 probably has it beat there.
What do you all think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I haven't strictly compaired the two but the Hellcat and FW190...at least on the surface seem to be quite similar. Heavier, strongly built, radial engine, aircraft...Hellcat has far more range and better turn. FW190 has better firepower, roll rate, and level speed. In a dogfight...the Hellcat will probably win but with alot of energy tactics and speed involved...the FW190 would have a good chance to win. Given that pilot skill is the same.

For the average pilot against another average pilot...I'd say the Hellcat is the winner. The FW190 is more of a experts plane when it comes to combat (its easy to fly but hard to fight with).

Slick750
10-12-2004, 03:27 PM
I'd put my money on the hellcat, should be well balanced plane with good visibility and ruggedness. But I wouldnt be surprised if the FW-190 won.

9th_Spitin
10-12-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliger747:
The 1% planes for CFS3 stack up pretty well against each other in comparison. I was quite surprised that the F6F-5 was very competitive in the trials I ran. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW, you actually got CFS3 to run well.

lbhskier37
10-12-2004, 03:52 PM
190 if the pilot knows what he is doing and doesnt try to turn with the Hellcat. 190 is a good bit faster and should be able to dictate the fight. If the 190 gets slow he is dead, any descent 190 pilot will stay fast and BnZ it.

Eraser_tr
10-12-2004, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> WOW, you actually got CFS3 to run well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These days its actually not that bad. When released it was buggy low FPS garbage. Now that computers can handle the game, and that so many new 1% planes have been added, its quite a good sim. I prefer it for quick combat dogfights over anything else, but il2/fb/aep/soon to be pf has it beat with missions, campaigns and online play. Not to mention its so nice to have that drop down menu for selecting skins http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In cfs3, I've flown hellcats against german fighters alot(both 1% and same flight model version) I win in the hellcat every time, other than roll rate, it just feels more responsive and nimble despite its weight.

DIRTY-MAC
10-12-2004, 05:22 PM
Here you go
Fleet Air Arm and R.A.F. Attacks against the Tirpitz in North Norway
Januar 1942 - November 1944 :

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/miscellaneous/airattackstirpitz.html

SkyChimp
10-12-2004, 07:24 PM
I think one of the best dogfighters in the game will be the FM2 Wildcat. It had a good climb rate. It dove very well. And it was a turning beast. I'm not sure there were any German fighters that could match it in the turn.

Maple_Tiger
10-12-2004, 07:46 PM
Just to let you guys know, the Canadian C-47 won the war.

Clan_Graham
10-12-2004, 07:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
I think one of the best dogfighters in the game will be the FM2 Wildcat. It had a good climb rate. It dove very well. And it was a turning beast. I'm not sure there were any German fighters that could match it in the turn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have any specs on that?
Climb rate, turning rate etc....
I'd love to see them. Or just direct me to a good web site.

Thanks Chimp.

Zacast
10-12-2004, 08:35 PM
In 1943-mid 44 I think the Hellcat will do well against the german fighters. Once you throw late 1944 German fighters into the mix though, I think the Germans will have a huge advantage as long as they exploit their speed advantages. Of course, a good pilot can overcome this but will have a rough time doing so if he's against good opposition.

charshep
10-12-2004, 11:36 PM
I'd love to see this mission done after PF comes out. How would the Corsair have done against the german planes? Which versions of the 109 and FW190 would it have met in operation Tungsten? What do you think the tactics of each would have been (Corsair vs 109 and Corsair vs 190)?

horseback
10-13-2004, 10:00 AM
As always, where the relative performances of the aircraft are not grossly uneven, it is the pilot, not the plane.

The issue is not how the planes would have done, but how the USN and USMC pilots would have done against the LW. If you compare the USN vs the USAAF scoring rates against their common opponent, Navy aces tend to excell, especially when you consider that the F4F-4 Wildcat was the USN/USMC's primary fighter for the first two years, while even the P-40 had exploitable performance advantages over the Japanese fighters.

If you then compare USAAF fighter pilots who did their early combat against the Japanese and then the Germans, they enjoy a marked advantage over the pilots who fought the Germans exclusively. Jim Howard, John Landers, and George Preddy all fought their early battles in P-40s against the Japanese, and arrived in the ETO while the issue was still in doubt. These are the more outstanding examples, but there were plenty of others who did well in the Med or ETO after a dose of the Pacific/CBI.

The reverse situation is not true, although the numbers/opportunity may not have favored the ETO veterans transferring to the Pacific.

The best Navy/Marine aces were probably even better. Consider McCampbell, who scored 34 kills in a six month carrier tour as a part time fighter pilot and a full time Air Group Commander (close to a third of his combat flight hours were spent in TBM Avengers). His Fighter Squadron had an amazing percentage of aces (as the original skipper of the fighter squadron, he had been responsible for their training). Among wartime fighter leaders, his only ETO USAAF peers were Zemke and Blakeslee (and he was a much better shot than either of them).

Had the early production and training numbers permitted the Corsair and Hellcat to operate at comparable to Fighter Group numbers (a Group had three 16 plane squadrons) out of Southern England with Naval Aviators flying low escort for the bombers, I think the Germans would have been much more concerned with the blue planes than the green ones (let's not even consider what Hellcats and Corsairs with lighter, nonfolding wings might have performed like).

cheers

horseback

faustnik
10-13-2004, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
I think one of the best dogfighters in the game will be the FM2 Wildcat. It had a good climb rate. It dove very well. And it was a turning beast. I'm not sure there were any German fighters that could match it in the turn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was just reading about a test against a Zero. It took 8 turns for the Zero to get inside the FM-2. No LW plane is going to come close. As to speed and climb though, the FM-2 would be a bit outmatched.

Snoop_Baron
10-13-2004, 04:49 PM
I thought the hellcat had a very good climb rate? How does it compare with the different 109 and 190 models?

Freycinet
10-13-2004, 05:03 PM
I believe the Hellcat met German fighters in the south of france too, can anybody find info on that? - Flying in support of the invasion of southern france...

Zyzbot
10-13-2004, 05:10 PM
Try this link:

http://www.cocardes.com/Histoire/a_vf74_page2.php

No combat with German fighters but some bombers downed. Link includes photos of a Do-217 being shot down.

faustnik
10-13-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
I thought the hellcat had a very good climb rate? How does it compare with the different 109 and 190 models? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey we have a real answer for that question! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://web.cetlink.net/~howardds/id90.htm

The FM-2 is a Wildcat though.

SkyChimp
10-13-2004, 07:26 PM
According to Grumman Aircraft: Since 1929 Rene Francillon:

FM-2
Top Speed: 332mpg @ 28,800 feet
Climb Rate: 3,650 feet per minute
Wing Loading: 28.8 lbs/sq ft

3,650 ft/min is pretty good, as good as the P-51D and P-47D. Nothing without meatballs on the wings will be able to turn with it, except maybe some of the dubiously modelled Soviet planes.

Here's an excerpt from Wildcat: The F4F in WWII Barrett Tillman (page 172):

By March the Searcher was back with the Home Fleet, and her 882 Squadron was flying Wildcat VIs. Though the end of the war in Europe was plainly in sight, the Luftwaffe chose to contest the matter. On the 26th, in company with Fencer and Queen, the Searcher patrolled the Norwegian coast with a flight of 882 fighters up and waiting, but Me-109Gs of II Gruppe, JG-5 surprised the Wildcats, badly damaging one in the first pass. The FM-2s manueverability allowed the British pilots to reverse the situation, and they claimed four kills. Though Marlets had briefly tangled with 109s in North Africa, this combat was the first conclusive engagement between the two types.

Snoop_Baron
10-14-2004, 11:20 AM
Thanks faustnik!