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Rammjaeger
05-22-2006, 11:21 AM
(note that my question is NOT about swastika enabler programs or ethical questionsm, moralising etc.!)

So, why did LW aircraft have the swastika on their tail section? After all, the official Wehrmacht insignia was the Balkenkreuz, not the swastika.

http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/turmnummern/balkenkreuz.htm

The swastika was part of the national flag and the coat of arms, but those are different from military markings.

Maybe it was the belief of the Nazis that the swastika, being the symbol of good luck and the "Aryan race" (as they thought), will protect the aircraft from misfortune and evil spirits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

faustnik
05-22-2006, 11:25 AM
The Nazi party wanted to show ownage. The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe sold out and had to display the Nazi logo.

Rammjaeger
05-22-2006, 11:30 AM
The Wehrmacht agreed in 1934 to have the new German coat of arms (eagle carrying the swastika) displayed on the uniforms but AFAIK no Wehrmacht vehicles were ever marked with the swastika barring the aircraft (LW was part of the Wehrmacht BTW). They were carrying the Balkenkreuz (sometimes translated as "black cross"). Only the aircraft had them. That's what I find strange.

Bremspropeller
05-22-2006, 11:46 AM
Tanks also had the Balkenkreuz:

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/panzer7/pz3h_1.jpg



The swastica was part of the Reichsflagge (Nazi-German national flag) and was therefore carried as national signal.
Civil a/c also carried swasricas from 1933 onwards.
Just like today's civil a/c carry the flag of their country somewhere on the tail or near the ID.

Today's Luftwaffe a/c carry the Federal Republic of Germany flag on the vertical stabilizer:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0611.jpg



Today's Luftwaffe pilot-jacket (here shown void of rank-markings and squad-patches or "wings" and other badges):
http://www.lhd-shop.de/medias/xVLoDOlxTpzvtBL2IuBBEd-30.jpg

For thode who didn't recon the flag http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif :

http://www.countryreports.org/flag/gifs/Germany.gif

Bewolf
05-22-2006, 03:24 PM
AFAIK it was Goering ordering the Luftwaffe to have the swastika, to impress Hitler. Dunno the details, though.

SPLASH_1
05-22-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
The Wehrmacht agreed in 1934 to have the new German coat of arms (eagle carrying the swastika) displayed on the uniforms but AFAIK no Wehrmacht vehicles were ever marked with the swastika barring the aircraft (LW was part of the Wehrmacht BTW). They were carrying the Balkenkreuz (sometimes translated as "black cross"). Only the aircraft had them. That's what I find strange.

Didn`t Afrika corps vehicles carry the Swastika in a palm tree insignia?

RCAF_Irish_403
05-22-2006, 03:50 PM
The Heer did display the swastika on vehicles

WTE_Galway
05-22-2006, 08:58 PM
Don't forget that the NSDAP flag was often used as an aircraft recognition flag on tanks, especially on the eastern front.

Rammjaeger
05-23-2006, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by SPLASH_1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
The Wehrmacht agreed in 1934 to have the new German coat of arms (eagle carrying the swastika) displayed on the uniforms but AFAIK no Wehrmacht vehicles were ever marked with the swastika barring the aircraft (LW was part of the Wehrmacht BTW). They were carrying the Balkenkreuz (sometimes translated as "black cross"). Only the aircraft had them. That's what I find strange.

Didn`t Afrika corps vehicles carry the Swastika in a palm tree insignia? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did, but AFAIK other standard Wehrmacht vehicles didn't carry the swastika. Most units had their own unit markings + there was the Balkenkreuz.

JG53Frankyboy
05-23-2006, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Don't forget that the NSDAP flag was often used as an aircraft recognition flag on tanks, especially on the eastern front.

it was not the NSDAP flag, this thing was the official Flag of the 3.Reich in that time .
weird but true.

JG53Frankyboy
05-23-2006, 04:32 AM
and btw, the III./JG53 didnt had Swastikas on their tails during the BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

it was a kind of protest...........

RCAF_Irish_403
05-23-2006, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Don't forget that the NSDAP flag was often used as an aircraft recognition flag on tanks, especially on the eastern front.

Yes.

I've seen pictures of Mk III Panzers doing this during TYPHOON

x6BL_Brando
05-23-2006, 06:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Don't forget that the NSDAP flag was often used as an aircraft recognition flag on tanks, especially on the eastern front.



it was not the NSDAP flag, this thing was the official Flag of the 3.Reich in that time .
weird but true.

Yes, in the same way that the Red Star became the symbol of the USSR during the Communist era. Similarly the fasces worn on Italian aircraft during the Axis period. Traditional national flags though are rather less temporary than those of dictatorships. Thankfully.

B.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-23-2006, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
and btw, the III./JG53 didnt had Swastikas on their tails during the BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

it was a kind of protest...........

Got a source for that? Genuinely interested.

panther3485
05-23-2006, 07:24 AM
References showing WW2 German combat planes in service without tailfin swastikas certainly seem to be rare.

I think there may have been a few exceptions but surely, they were just that - exceptions? I get the impression it was fairly rigidly applied and enforced?

Anyone care to venture percentages?


Best regards,
panther3485

PBNA-Boosher
05-23-2006, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
and btw, the III./JG53 didnt had Swastikas on their tails during the BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

it was a kind of protest...........

Got a source for that? Genuinely interested. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I am. The C/O at the time, a man by the name of Hans Jurgen, had a Jewish wife. When it was brought to the attention of Goering, he made III./JG.53 strip their planes of the elite symbol of the "Pik As." Instead they had to wear a red stripe of shame on the cowling of their 109's. In a sign of protest by the entire squadron of III./JG.53, every aircraft had the swastika taken off of the tailplane.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-23-2006, 08:13 AM
Got a source for that? Genuinely interested.

Edit:Might look a bit flippant, not my intention. Thanks for reply - any further info' anywhere?

JG53Frankyboy
05-23-2006, 08:37 AM
my source is Priens "History of the JG53" Volume 1 Book http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
sure , im a memeber of the virtual III/JG53, so im interested in such stuff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


well, the Redband (replacing the Ace Of spade) on the engine cowling for the whole JG53 is not dierectly linked to the overpainting of the Swastika the III/JG53 did during BoB.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-23-2006, 08:43 AM
I'll look out for it, thanks very much. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

actionhank1786
05-23-2006, 09:10 AM
I remember hearing about the JG53 guys.
A pretty ballsy move.
That'd be like painting over the National markings on your plane now.
Also, hate to get off topic, but i'll be d@mned if the Luftwaffe can't make an F-4 look nice.

JG53Frankyboy
05-23-2006, 09:16 AM
about the Red Band :

http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/PikAs1.jpg

http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/PikAs2.jpg

von Cramon-Traubadel was replaced as CO of JG53 by vonMaltzahn at the 10.October 40 .
the "Ace of Spades" was reintroduced at the 20. November 40 - officially because of the 500. Airvictory of the JG53 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


about the Swastika overpainting of the III/JG53:
that became common, not as a rule because some planes still showed the Swastika (!) , after Wilcke became CO of the III/JG53 end of August 1940 as reaction of the harsh criticism of G├┬Âring about the Fighterpilots performance .

http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/PikAs3.jpg

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-23-2006, 09:23 AM
Interesting, thanks for posting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Let's hope we get a decent Portland Harbour in BoB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif