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raaaid
05-02-2007, 04:24 AM
i think a vital skill for a pilot was navigation

it would be cool if compass pointed to needle north not true north

also the pilot could be equipped with a virtual sextant, or pilots didnt use sextants?

maybe a bunch of guys could fly together a bomber being one of them the navigator

there could even be missions with astronomical events like eclipses

just check out how microsoft fs took good care of representing stars accurately

i loved the way virtual night would come on european air war

new-fherathras
05-02-2007, 04:35 AM
I totally agree.
I enjoy navigating in IL-2 but sometimes it gets a bit simplistic, so I am looking forward to BoB with interest regarding navigation http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

jasonbirder
05-02-2007, 04:41 AM
Wow! Raiid I totally agree with you!
Navigation seems way too easy at the moment and yet it was a vital skill in real life...

FlixFlix
05-02-2007, 04:51 AM
Pilots didn't use sextants. Those were only for nautical position sensing AFAIK. Pilots in WW2 used radio navigation and gyroscopic compasses.
Also, with the maps displaying only a small area I don't think the deviation between magnetic and geographic north would make a difference at all.
As for astro navigation, check this thread:
>astro-navigation in IL2< (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3541074705?r=3541074705#3541074705) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

gdfo
05-02-2007, 04:56 AM
There are at least 3 ways to do it.

Include in the game an option in the Map that allows a pilot to bring up a transparent 'pilots plotter' on the map and create his/her/their own way points using the plotter. (Easiest)

World Map (MSFlightsim style) with real longitude and latitude co-ordinates that are turned on or off by the player like the speed bar. You would have to know the Lat and Long of each location or target you plan to fly to


Limited Long and Lat. Only includes the long and lat of the maps in the game. But still would function like the MS series.

The first option is the easiest to implement into the game and would be the easiest for players to lean and use.

raaaid
05-02-2007, 04:58 AM
in my opinion a mistake of il2 stars is that they are too fainted

at 10000 m theres no contamination, almost no atmosphere, the stars would look like a dream

raaaid
05-02-2007, 05:16 AM
here you can see how huge is magnetic variation in europe:

http://www.disitron.com/freeresources/europe.gif

that united to the magnetic declination caused by the plane makes polaris a much better reference

if i were a pilot in ww2 id carry one of this to use at night and forget of the compass:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Goniometr-1900.png

Capt.LoneRanger
05-02-2007, 05:18 AM
1. The stars are fully correct in IL2, allowing navigation by stars.

2. As posted in one of your earlier threads, the true (magnetic) north and navigational (geographical) north in GreatBritain is much the same, as the 0-meridian goes through Greenich, south of London and the magnetiv pole is on a direct line of that.

3. Sextants are used to measure time and angle of stars rising and disappearing behind the horizon. As this relies on mathematical observations from ground level, it is obvious, these don't apply to anything above sea-level, especially not fast moving points at 30,000ft.

4. There was no total eclipse in WW2, AFAIK in Central Europe.
And without the unaided eye, most eclipses will pass unrecognized.

raaaid
05-02-2007, 05:43 AM
1. The stars are fully correct in IL2, allowing navigation by stars.

i think they are fixed, not very realistic

"As posted in one of your earlier threads, the true (magnetic) north and navigational (geographical) north in GreatBritain is much the same, as the 0-meridian goes through Greenich, south of London and the magnetiv pole is on a direct line of that.

http://www.disitron.com/freeresources/europe.gif

on this map the leaned lines are magnetic north and vertical ones true north, as you can see theres a huge discrepance especially in britain ,in belfast there are 10º variation

"Sextants are used to measure time and angle of stars rising and disappearing behind the horizon. As this relies on mathematical observations from ground level, it is obvious, these don't apply to anything above sea-level, especially not fast moving points at 30,000ft."

there are artificial horizont sextants since long ago

"There was no total eclipse in WW2, AFAIK in Central Europe.
And without the unaided eye, most eclipses will pass unrecognized."

here i count 20 eclipses of sun and moon from 1940 to 45 and ww2 was fought all over the globe:
http://jyotish.net/eclipse%20page.htm

raaaid
05-02-2007, 06:16 AM
http://flyawaysimulation.com/downloads-file-1021-details.html

someone thought of my idea before me, microsoft

ill tell them about my idea for getting virtual reality with trackir because i doubt it to be implemented in bob

Hkuusela
05-02-2007, 06:28 AM
But if the Spit had a gyro compass, that would not point to the magnetic north, but to where ever it is set to point.

p-11.cAce
05-02-2007, 07:27 AM
For anyone who thinks navigation in IL2 is too easy - have you switched off your map icons and minimap path? Have you flown as flight leader and not called home to momma for vectors to target? Have you gotten separated from your flight at dusk or at night and found your way home without calling momma for vectors? Navigating in IL2 full switch is very very hard!

Crash_Moses
05-02-2007, 07:34 AM
Yes, but it doesn't actually simulate how pilot's navigated (although I love trying to navigate full real...)

I want strip maps and a grease pencil. I want to pull out the shelf on the SBD and try and find my way home using old charts and whatever navigation skills the Navy deemed fit...

WB_Outlaw
05-02-2007, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
http://flyawaysimulation.com/downloads-file-1021-details.html

someone thought of my idea before me, microsoft

ill tell them about my idea for getting virtual reality with trackir because i doubt it to be implemented in bob

Do you even own a TrackIR yet raaaid?

--Outlaw.

Capt.LoneRanger
05-02-2007, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. The stars are fully correct in IL2, allowing navigation by stars.

i think they are fixed, not very realistic

"As posted in one of your earlier threads, the true (magnetic) north and navigational (geographical) north in GreatBritain is much the same, as the 0-meridian goes through Greenich, south of London and the magnetiv pole is on a direct line of that.

http://www.disitron.com/freeresources/europe.gif

on this map the leaned lines are magnetic north and vertical ones true north, as you can see theres a huge discrepance especially in britain ,in belfast there are 10º variation

"Sextants are used to measure time and angle of stars rising and disappearing behind the horizon. As this relies on mathematical observations from ground level, it is obvious, these don't apply to anything above sea-level, especially not fast moving points at 30,000ft."

there are artificial horizont sextants since long ago

"There was no total eclipse in WW2, AFAIK in Central Europe.
And without the unaided eye, most eclipses will pass unrecognized."

here i count 20 eclipses of sun and moon from 1940 to 45 and ww2 was fought all over the globe:
http://jyotish.net/eclipse%20page.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't know that - nice find. Though the deviation is about 2-5 degrees in the given area of BoB!

The stars are fixed on a texture, of course, but the sky shown is dependent on what time of year you got. The only thing that is not modelled AFAIK are other planets. But maybe somebody can make a few tests?

Akronnick
05-02-2007, 08:44 AM
More realistic Navigation would certainly be nice in BoB. In Il-2, Navigation is totally bogus, your either stuck with the artificial GPS that is the mini-map path/icons, or no aids at all, not even a decent map. (dont tell me that the pull up map in game is good, compared to a REAL aviation chart, it sucks)

On some planes, you can't even SEE your compass, and you're forced to use the heading on the speed bar.

Navigation is one area where some real improvement would be nice.

p-11.cAce
05-02-2007, 10:13 AM
I must be the only one who was geeky enough to print and laminate maps to use when I fly. The "pull up" map in game is just about worthless - I like having my own map in my lap and marking off waypoints with dry-erase markers as I go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Crash_Moses
05-02-2007, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
I must be the only one who was geeky enough to print and laminate maps to use when I fly. The "pull up" map in game is just about worthless - I like having my own map in my lap and marking off waypoints with dry-erase markers as I go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Nope...you weren't the only one...hehe... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BuzzU
05-02-2007, 10:35 AM
You want navigation? Fly the OF mod in Falcon 4.0. Much more involved than just finding your way home.

willyvic
05-02-2007, 12:39 PM
Navigating using the map or landmarks is quite simplistic in this game. After all, the area we fly in is relatively small when compared to say...oh I don't know.....FSX.

Good post Raaaid. I would also like to see an increase in the need for concise navigation.

WV.

shotdownski
05-02-2007, 01:09 PM
I print and laminate maps like others, and have little trouble dead-reckoning around most maps. Issues I have:

-Visible distance of towns and cities too short.

-Redundancy of landforms (agricultural patterns repeating) with no landmarks (I realize eastern front did have large expanses of nondescript terratory).

-Roads and other landmarks can be hard to see from altitude; railroad tracks are almost impossible to see unless very low.

-Angular nature of roads and RR tracks (as opposed to curvelinear).

-Rivers are all the same on some maps with no attempt to show even semi-realistic morphology (eg. rivers tend to begin and end at random points, all the same width, etc).

So basically I think better lanscapes will make for better (more immersive) navigation as will dynamic weather (cross winds, head winds, tail winds, etc). I don't think complicating things with magnetic deviation is necessary.

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2007, 01:53 PM
Yes, magnetic deviation could be a gameplay option.

I also once took FMB screenshots of the maps, printed them out and laminated them myself with wide clear mailing tape. Real maps on the desktop is alot more fun than the little gamey map box. The Sims should come with laminated paper maps, perhaps mail order seperately.

Buzz::
You want navigation? Fly the OF mod in Falcon 4.0. Much more involved than just finding your way home.
um...they said mods "killed" flight sims. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BuzzU
05-02-2007, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yes, magnetic deviation could be a gameplay option.

I also once took FMB screenshots of the maps, printed them out and laminated them myself with wide clear mailing tape. Real maps on the desktop is alot more fun than the little gamey map box. The Sims should come with laminated paper maps, perhaps mail order seperately.

Buzz:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You want navigation? Fly the OF mod in Falcon 4.0. Much more involved than just finding your way home.
um...they said mods "killed" flight sims. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who would want to fly the original F4 now? F4 is all about mods. It's good enough now to entertain real F-16 pilots.

Aaron_GT
05-02-2007, 02:24 PM
Surely it's the job of ground control and your squadron leader to navigate?

Once playing warbirds I was leading a squadron of B25s (those days of big formations in a squad like that were fun and we took it in turns to lead) and flew 180 degrees to the correct course. Best I don't navigate unless I can stop to ask for directions occasionally http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MB_Avro_UK
05-02-2007, 02:30 PM
Hi all,

The BIGGEST factor in navigation is wind. You can't see it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

This caused the RAF night Bombers from 1940 until about 1942 huge problems.They'd set off on a heading based on the expected wind direction and strength only to find that their bombs were dropped 20 miles or more from the target.

This is known as Dead Reckoning navigation or DR.

Daylight Ops would not be so much of a problem. The wind drift could be calculated in flight regularly by the navigator/pilot in relation to track and applied to give a corrected compass heading.

Navigation was a complex subject in WW2. IL2 does not factor in wind variables. In real life, wind direction and its speed varies throughout a flight.

In other words, navigation in real life is not a simple matter of drawing a line on a map and following the given compass heading.

For example, if your heading steered is one degree off because of a miscalulation as to wind strength...you will be one mile off target after 60 miles... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I hope that the variable wind factors will be included in BoB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Here endeth the lesson..

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

p-11.cAce
05-02-2007, 02:58 PM
um...they said mods "killed" flight sims

I am the "they" who said that mods kill flight sims - and when I posted that quote I was specifically referring to the nightmare that often happens (not just in flight sims) to online games when the code starts getting tweaked by every "knows it better" amateur game developer. Lead Pursuit did an amazing job with the DOA Falcon 4.0 - they also PAID FOR THE LICENSE TO ATARI TO MOD THE CODE.

IL2 has had many "mods" - aircraft, maps, textures, & objects have all been developed by 3rd parties. But unlike the wild-west of MSFS where the junk to decent to good aircraft is about a 100-10-1 ratio - Olegs team vets 3rd party items before adding them to the sim. The result is a great, uniformly presented, and rock stable piece of software.

This does not even address the countless skins, missions, & campaigns developed by users.

The reason this sim has not faded away into irrelevance online is that the code is LOCKED. When it is finally hacked (for good) you can measure its longevity in months. First, a well meaning player will notch up his -190's top end to make it "more accurate". Then a Spit driver will increase his dive speed "to keep everything equal" - soon you've got 900kph Gladiators and He-111's performing like Extra 300's.

Falcon 4.0 was dead in the water from Atari. A third party ponied up for the code and turned it into a top notch sim. This is a form of "mod" that is far and away from someone tweaking code on their own to fit their needs.

Hanglands
05-02-2007, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
The stars are fixed on a texture, of course, but the sky shown is dependent on what time of year you got. The only thing that is not modelled AFAIK are other planets. But maybe somebody can make a few tests?

Hi,

I did a thread called 'Astro/Celestial Navigation' or some such thing a while back. As you say the stars are fixed, but they were the same pattern on every map I tried. I only sampled half a dozen or so, but they were identical.

A panoramic shot of the Il-2 sky :

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/starshot3.jpg

The only things moving in the Il-2 sky are the sun and the moon.

Navigating at night for a long range bombing mission would be great.

erco415
05-02-2007, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
3. Sextants are used to measure time and angle of stars rising and disappearing behind the horizon. As this relies on mathematical observations from ground level, it is obvious, these don't apply to anything above sea-level, especially not fast moving points at 30,000ft.
[QUOTE]

You can use a sextant in flight. In nautical use, the deck from which obsevations are taken is (we hope) some distance above the surface. There are tables to correct for height above sealevel. Note how many long range aircraft have an astrodome. Read Ernie Gann's 'Fate is the Hunter' for the author's account of taking sights airborne and fixing his position.

Cheers

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2007, 08:03 PM
p11Ace::
I am the "they" who said that mods kill flight sims ...
:
:
The reason this sim has not faded away into irrelevance online is that the code is LOCKED.
Well, Microsoft is one computer software company never to "unlock its code" and yet claims of "cheating" in Microsoft's sims are popular among a few here; not just you. So you are not making sense to honest people here. If you wanna talk about computer gamer slogans and "locked code," start a new thread (off topic here) call it... Mr/Mrs/Ms Lexx Teach Me ... and we can talk there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AKA_TAGERT
05-02-2007, 08:22 PM
Pooor Nancy

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2007, 08:48 PM
You see P11Ace, it was not just You. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Roblex
05-03-2007, 12:09 AM
When I played Warbirds it took about an hour to fly from England to Berlin and in the special events we had to navigate by time & vector & landmarks. As the events were weekly we printed out maps before the event and used them.
It was great fun and not as difficult as you might think, even when flying in New Guinea area. Recreating Carrier Ops mid Pacific and finding the carrier again could be 'interesting' though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aaron_GT
05-03-2007, 02:14 AM
You can use a sextant in flight.

Indeed, the perspex radome at the back of the Lancaster cockpit is where the navigator was intended to use it from.

Roblex wrote:

When I played Warbirds it took about an hour to fly from England to Berlin and in the special events we had to navigate by time & vector & landmarks. As the events were weekly we printed out maps before the event and used them.

I think I flew on some of those events with you. I can't remember now if you were in Duxford Wing or not. Were you in the squadron that flew from England to Kiel to attack the submarine base with B17s at 20,000 feet? The intention was to attack the pens but when I got into the bombardier position I spotted a couple of subs and dropped my bombs on them instead (it was nice to be able to set the drop timing on a stick of bombs - something we lack in IL2) and hit and sank one! Then there was the long slog back to England with Fw 190s in tow. I think we only lost a couple of around 15 B17s, though, as we were so high on the return leg the 190As were having problems with the altitude.

Good times.

I wonder if anyone plays Warbirds III? The graphics were basic in Warbirds II but the immersion factor could be really high.

Roblex
05-03-2007, 11:27 AM
Were you in the squadron that flew from England to Kiel to attack the submarine base with B17s at 20,000 feet?

On that mission I actually went in first with a mosquito at 100ft which I used to mark the target for the B17s.

http://wildroad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SL228_22.JPG

Roblex
05-03-2007, 11:36 AM
Well, Microsoft is one computer software company never to "unlock its code" and yet claims of "cheating" in Microsoft's sims are popular among a few here

Are we talking about the same Microsoft that wrote CFS where you could modify the stats of any aircraft and fly them online? Ok technically it is not modifying the code but if you wanted to put 50mm cannon on your Mk1 hurricane and treble the effective range while making its skin out of armoured steel plate you were free to take it to the dogfight arenas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CarpeNoctem43
05-03-2007, 01:41 PM
Posted Wed May 02 2007 03:51 Hide Post
Pilots didn't use sextants. Those were only for nautical position sensing AFAIK. Pilots in WW2 used radio navigation and gyroscopic compasses.
Also, with the maps displaying only a small area I don't think the deviation between magnetic and geographic north would make a difference at all.
As for astro navigation, check this thread:

Of course they did, unless there was a navigator; in which case the navigator used a sextant.

Sextants were still used because anything gyroscopic or compass based still had, and do, have a huge error margin.

Quote from B-17 Pilot Training Manual:

Instrument Calibration

Instrument calibration is an important duty of the navigator. All navigation depends directly on the accuracy of his instruments. Correct calibration requires close cooperation and extremely careful flying by the pilot. Instruments to be calibrated include the altimeter, all compasses, airspeed indicators, alignment of the astrocompass, astrograph, and drift meter, and check on the navigator's sextant and watch.

Heck, sextants were used well into the 60's. Re: John Gray, Fate is the Hunter and Stick and Rudder.

Until radio navigation was available everywhere, a sextant was used for accuracy. These other things like gyroscopic compasses or astrocompass, etc had loads of drift.

Aaron_GT
05-03-2007, 03:27 PM
Roblex: check out an OT thread on warbirds.

raaaid
05-04-2007, 06:04 AM
it would be cool if we got with bob an astronomical almanac from 40 to 46 and virtual sextant and astrocompass

this astrocompass seems to have been used in afrika

with the sun, sextant and almanac you could measure your position with very few miles mistake

hell that would weep microsoft