PDA

View Full Version : Bomber Gunners Too Good!!!



smink1701
12-01-2010, 01:53 PM
Does anyone else think this is true? Seems from what I've read the gunners on B-17s and other bombers rarely were able to knock down fighters. In 1946 this doesn’t seem to be the case. Your thoughts?

Daiichidoku
12-01-2010, 02:09 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/gifs/smiley-face-popcorn.gif

Bankoletti
12-01-2010, 02:11 PM
Bomber gunner logic is very simple in my experience. Whenever I'm attacking a bomber (like, diving with my P-51 on a Ju-88 from high 4 or 8 oclock), whizzing past it with 500kph speed difference and an incredibly hard deflection to shoot, they always manage to get my prop pitch governor with a single bullet fired, or even worse send one through my forehead.

However, whenever I'm flying a bomber, my gunners appear to be shooting every empty corner of the sky ("frightening fire") except towards the attacker.

Simple!

Ba5tard5word
12-01-2010, 02:12 PM
If you're making a mission, set bombers to average or rookie AI and they won't hit you as much, but yes in general they are annoyingly accurate.

arthursmedley
12-01-2010, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Bankoletti:
Bomber gunner logic is very simple in my experience. Whenever I'm attacking a bomber (like, diving with my P-51 on a Ju-88 from high 4 or 8 oclock), whizzing past it with 500kph speed difference and an incredibly hard deflection to shoot, they always manage to get my prop pitch governor with a single bullet fired, or even worse send one through my forehead.

However, whenever I'm flying a bomber, my gunners appear to be shooting every empty corner of the sky ("frightening fire") except towards the attacker.

Simple!

Lol, exactly my experience too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

berg417448
12-01-2010, 02:31 PM
I especially enjoy the rear seat gunners who can fire sniper shots while their pilots are looping and engaging in barrel rolls.

WTE_Galway
12-01-2010, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by smink1701:
Does anyone else think this is true? Seems from what I've read the gunners on B-17s and other bombers rarely were able to knock down fighters. In 1946 this doesn’t seem to be the case. Your thoughts?

That depended on the gunner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_McIntosh


The thing is on "Ace" setting, not just the pilot but also every gunner in the plane is the gunner equivalent of Hartmann or Marseille.

Though even with Hans-Joachim Marseille manning the guns getting hit by a gunner in a spinning plane missing a wing is far fetched to say the least http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Two comments ...

a) A flight of four bombers manned by clones of Hans-Joachim Marseille is clearly not historical. The only reason to use these settings is if you WANT the challenge.

b) even then, attacking from the above or below and jinking and weaving gives you a very good chance of success

DKoor
12-01-2010, 03:14 PM
You are in luck if you fly cannon equipped plane.

Snipe it back from 700m and problem solved. Everyone tells you need to bnz etc. No you don't. Snipe it down. They likely wont hit you from that distance.

In my extensive experience with this game any non-uber expert and non-uber patience will result with complete disaster when it comes to bomber hunting.

You can, with proper training and patience produce results like this;
http://www.filefactory.com/fil...hurri_4he111_405.zip (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b484ge2/n/kunahurri_4he111_405.zip)
...or...
http://www.filefactory.com/fil...or40m_4he111_405.zip (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b484gfb/n/dkoor40m_4he111_405.zip)
...you can even employ desperate tactics like this;
http://www.filefactory.com/fil...111bombkill_402.ntrk (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b484gfe/n/kunail2_he111bombkill_402.ntrk)
...but truth to be told, don't try this at home.

VW-IceFire
12-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Depends...

The AI gunners are too good at insane deflection shots and extreme maneuver shots that a human shouldn't be able to pull off. I've seen some hilarious snipes...

That said... the majority of people who complain about sniper gunners have done something incredibly bad for their virtual health and sat on the 6 o'clock position behind the bomber so that every gunner and his mother could hit you.

Online several people have complained about the insanely good AI sniper gunners. The hilarious truth is that *I* was the gunner and they were a VERY easy target.

Angle shots and good deflection shooting or sniping from a distance with the appropriate weaponry are the best options.

M_Gunz
12-01-2010, 03:50 PM
IIRC either Ace Expansion or Pacific Fighters disk has many examples of shooting bombers down without taking a hit. That was done just because of all the "AI gunners are too good" threads. Yes, it's possible with the right tactics. Are they better than was real? Probably so in some ways but in others AI = Artificial Idiot. The AI is no good at predicting future maneuvers, they don't 'read' your plane banking to swerve or turn for example. Stay on a steady course in range at your own peril.

Ba5tard5word
12-01-2010, 03:54 PM
Also there are definitely times when I was surprised that I didn't get hit by any bomber gunners, like if I'm surrounded by like 16 bombers firing wildly and I don't get hit at all.

Different planes have totally different gunner abilities. Pe-2's seem to have snipers no matter what AI difficulty they have. I don't think I've ever avoided getting hit by one of them unless I was going like 700kph at them. Most other bombers don't seem as accurate at all. B-17's seem pretty accurate too though they have way more guns than a lot of bombers.

WTE_Galway
12-01-2010, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
Also there are definitely times when I was surprised that I didn't get hit by any bomber gunners, like if I'm surrounded by like 16 bombers firing wildly and I don't get hit at all.

Different planes have totally different gunner abilities. Pe-2's seem to have snipers no matter what AI difficulty they have. I don't think I've ever avoided getting hit by one of them unless I was going like 700kph at them. Most other bombers don't seem as accurate at all. B-17's seem pretty accurate too though they have way more guns than a lot of bombers.

Of course some planes have blind spots ... underneath the Blenheim for example (or weak spots, such as ju88 pilots who suffer heart attacks at the sight of tracer and die)

The type of gun also matters. Betty gunners do not seem overly accurate but getting hit in the face by a 20 mm really hurts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DKoor
12-01-2010, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Of course some planes have blind spots ...
That reminded me of one occasion where I set up 16 Stukas qmb vs me in Lagg and just sneak up on every Stuka point blank range match its speed and slowly advance meter by meter until I start to chew its tail wheel with my prop, those Ai weren't maneuvered much, perhaps due to their faith in the gunners ability.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyhow it was hilarious to slightly pull nose up and blow him up, you practically cannot miss http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .
The hardest part is avoiding being hit by others in formation...

Unfortunately vs most bombers this is fail tactic.

Vs "normal" bombers I've also been quite regularly hit by their nose gunners (ace) while on headons so that ain't some joyful tactic either.

IIRC I've had some unusual success in barrel rolling around the bombers tail while taking every opportunity to hit its wing fuel tank; I remember that I was able to shot down two B-25s using only 2 nose MG's from Bf-109F2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . I don't know the situation now as I haven't exercised such masochistic setups in long time...

Romanator21
12-01-2010, 05:45 PM
@ Icefire - so true! But there are definitely techniques to rear-gunnery which makes it tricky at first.

@B5 - The Pe-2 has good gunners, but on the other hand, the plane is extremely weak structurally. The wings are stuck on with chewing gum, so it's a little bit of a trade off (Which is sad, because a plane with wings like that shouldn't be able to dive...)

What's really weird is the SBD - that gunner can't hit the broad side of a barn. But if he's up against his "natural enemy" (Zero) he's fairly effective anyway because they light so easily.

The best sniper of all though is in that new Letov biplane. Those planes are extremely difficult to kill because of those gunners, always PKing me as soon as they smell me.

WTE_Galway
12-01-2010, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Romanator21:

The best sniper of all though is in that new Letov biplane. Those planes are extremely difficult to kill because of those gunners, always PKing me as soon as they smell me.

D@mn Czech and Slovak pilots ... :P

The real challenge to down with light mg in the newer planes is of course the SM79 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M2morris
12-01-2010, 08:09 PM
Did some bomber- attack practice this afternoon.
I do good on the first pass, had the sun at my back, but you can tell when I get lazy and impatient I don't repeat the same process and I start taking hits and after taking hits my gunnery skills get wobbly. I should have included in the vid all the unsuccessful attempts at taking out theses bombers. The gunners clobbered me.
I was lucky to survive this one:
http://www.youtube.com/user/83...#p/a/u/0/pi31xsOXQwQ (http://www.youtube.com/user/8311XHT#p/a/u/0/pi31xsOXQwQ)

RSS-Martin
12-01-2010, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by smink1701:
Does anyone else think this is true? Seems from what I've read the gunners on B-17s and other bombers rarely were able to knock down fighters. In 1946 this doesn’t seem to be the case. Your thoughts?
Hmm I have heard that a few times when I was flying a bomber and took up the rear gunner position to nail a nosey fighter, it is not always AI in the gunner position, and with a bit of practice one can hit pretty good. It always depends on the point of view! Bomber pilots could also mention a few things that are not so wow from their point of view.

idonno
12-01-2010, 11:06 PM
I was once killed by an SBD gunner while I was at his 5 0'clock and he was in the middle of a split "S"!

It's not just how good the gunners are, but their guns seem ridiculously effective. I'd trade all eight of the 50's form a 47 for just one 30 cal from a gunners position.

Oh. and they are also far too difficult to kill!

This guy was still firing at me after this.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll104/michael_t53/Bulletproofgunner.jpg

Some nights I just don't even attack bombers. I just let them go on their merry uber way.

DKoor
12-02-2010, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by M2morris:
Did some bomber- attack practice this afternoon.
I do good on the first pass, had the sun at my back, but you can tell when I get lazy and impatient I don't repeat the same process and I start taking hits and after taking hits my gunnery skills get wobbly. I should have included in the vid all the unsuccessful attempts at taking out theses bombers. The gunners clobbered me.
I was lucky to survive this one:
http://www.youtube.com/user/83...#p/a/u/0/pi31xsOXQwQ (http://www.youtube.com/user/8311XHT#p/a/u/0/pi31xsOXQwQ)

http://www.youtube.com/user/83...#p/a/u/2/pUDWFx9DTDs (http://www.youtube.com/user/8311XHT#p/a/u/2/pUDWFx9DTDs)

ROFL

Bearcat99
12-02-2010, 06:24 AM
Just think.. if the real gunners had been that accurate the P-51 would have never won the war...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

M_Gunz
12-02-2010, 08:28 AM
It would have been B-17's, the Lancs flew at night!

Are there any bombers vs bombers servers still active?

K_Freddie
12-02-2010, 11:35 AM
Come in from the 1-oc(or 11-oc) position, with a slight weave.
When at 2-oc (10-oc) straighten up aim and fire a burst no more than 1-2secs from a range of 300m-500m.
Nose down with a slight bank and weave. Keeping side-on and the end tip of your wing between the gunners and yourself (extra armour protection) - DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT pass the rear gunners line of fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Go either below or above, yoyoing your way out on the other side.

Once out of range, parallel to bombers course and back to attacking position (11-oc (or 1-oc)) You'll be lucky to survive more than 3 attacks, break off for home after 3.

Do a 12-oc attack, ignore the engines and airframe - go for the crew = spray the fuselage from nose to tail. It's safer to dive below your target, turning out and climbing again once out of range.

Speed is your friend - more speed the less time you'll be in firing range.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Woke_Up_Dead
12-02-2010, 12:10 PM
What is the level of the AI gunners on the online servers usually? I'm guessing it's Average or Veteran.

Bankoletti
12-02-2010, 12:36 PM
Another gunner ace in reality was Pietro Bonannini. Serving aboard Italian float planes (Cant 506 and Fiat RS14), he's credited with at least 8 confirmed victories over British aircraft (spits, hurris, blenheims and beau's).

Besides incredible luck (recconaissance float planes usually flew alone) he must have had an extraordinary marksmanship ability and nerves of steel to say the least. On one instance his dorsal mounted Scotti 12.7mm heavy MG got hit and jammed, so he crawled down to ventral position, unmounted the 7.7mm SAFAT from there, took it up to the dorsal nest and fought the British fighters off. Ironically, he survived the war but was killed after the war in a civilian airplane crash. Imagine the odds. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Xiolablu3
12-02-2010, 04:10 PM
IMHO its because the turret guns have absolutely no spread or recoil. They are just like laser weapons.

In real bomber turrets or gun positions, gunners fired in bursts so as to keep the gun on target, even on a mounting. But in IL2 its just 'put your pipper on the target and let fly with supreme accuracy.

I know its just a film, but I am pretty sure this is how bomber gunners really fired. :-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuI0gFUq3HY


Even on a mounting, aiming at an attacking plane accurately would mean short bursts IMHO. I am open to be corrected if anyone knows for sure that I am wrong about this.

I hope that in SOW BOB the bomber guns have some recoil spread as in real life they would have. Its just too easy in IL2 with a mouse aiming.

However it IS possible in IL2 to attack succesfully without getting hit. You must come in fast from above at high speed so that the gunners cannot target you properly. Coming up slowly straight from behind will have you killed in no time. (Which is actually probably in line with real life.)

Get above th ebombers and dive on them, aiming in front with a high deflection shot, then carry on below, zoom out of range, climb and rpeat. You should be OK. This doesnt mean that I think the gunners are not *a little* too accurate however. Its just a way of attacking without dying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

koivis
12-02-2010, 04:27 PM
I can confirm that firing a heavy machine gun towards a target far away is not that easy. Why? Because I have done that, during my army service we fired two belts, 30 rounds each of 12,7x108 ammo (1/3 of which tracers) with NSV heavy MG into a static target, using AN OPTICAL SCOPE. And still I managed to miss it with the first burst. No way it could have been hit with a longer one, short bursts were simply the only option. Add slipstream and possible eveasive manouvers into the game and your hit chances of hitting a fast, small object moving at 400-500 km/h are less than impressive.

mortoma
12-02-2010, 04:33 PM
Exact opposite, the bomber gunners are lame in this game. I have done experiments that show that when I man guns on a bomber that I'm approximately 8 times better at hitting aircraft than the AI gunners!!

Noobie players that whine about the AI gunners should count their blessing that they are not programmed to be nearly as good as I am. I repeated this experiment three times and each time I came out as about 7 to 8 times better in my aim.

amilaninia
12-02-2010, 05:21 PM
I found the Policarpov PO-2 is the toughest of all "Uber" aircraft and gunners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif .
As you can see there is no under belly gun or even glass window, and yet the gunner manage to see and shoot at you when you approach it directly from under belly (I mean literally under the aircraft), and usually it's first or second round (from it's single 7.62mm) either burst your plane ablaze (as if hit with a BAZOOKA round) or in between your eyes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
On the other hand it is pretty immune to .303 guns of your Gladiator or .50 guns of your Buffalo (when flying Finnish pilot campaign) although it's skin is made of simple canvas http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Only a FW-190 with 4-20mm and 2-30mm cannons and 2-13mm mg's pulverized him with a 2 second burst(in QMB). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Try it in quick mission builder and see it for your self. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab245/Racoon-a/m_Policarpovpo-2.jpg
http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab245/Racoon-a/m_Policarpovpo-2-3.jpg

arthursmedley
12-02-2010, 05:24 PM
What koivis said but also German MG's had a very high rate of fire. The 50 round drums fitted could be exhausted in around 3 seconds of sustained fire. Also changing a barrel is not an option in an aeroplane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Obviously I am no expert on aerial gunnery but I would imagine the air-gunners were trained to fire short, aimed bursts, just like their infantry counterparts.

Bankoletti
12-02-2010, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by amilaninia:
I found the Policarpov PO-2 is the toughest of all "Uber" aircraft and gunners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif .


It appears you haven't met Letov Š-328 yet. Now try attacking this one and Po-2 will suddenly turn into kindergarten toy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

M2morris
12-02-2010, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:


http://www.youtube.com/user/83...#p/a/u/2/pUDWFx9DTDs (http://www.youtube.com/user/8311XHT#p/a/u/2/pUDWFx9DTDs)

ROFL

That "AAAAAHH" video bothered some people. Some think it's funny, some don't.

thefruitbat
12-02-2010, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Exact opposite, the bomber gunners are lame in this game. I have done experiments that show that when I man guns on a bomber that I'm approximately 8 times better at hitting aircraft than the AI gunners!!

Noobie players that whine about the AI gunners should count their blessing that they are not programmed to be nearly as good as I am. I repeated this experiment three times and each time I came out as about 7 to 8 times better in my aim.

what exactly was the g load you were under, sat at your desk?

what was the recoil like at your desk?

what was the slip stream like, moving those guns around in it, sat at your desk?

just curious.

Xiolablu3
12-03-2010, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Exact opposite, the bomber gunners are lame in this game. I have done experiments that show that when I man guns on a bomber that I'm approximately 8 times better at hitting aircraft than the AI gunners!!

Noobie players that whine about the AI gunners should count their blessing that they are not programmed to be nearly as good as I am. I repeated this experiment three times and each time I came out as about 7 to 8 times better in my aim.

This is not the point i was making, I was saying that also when manned by a 'human' player, that the bomber guns are too accurate also when compared to RL.

Also many of us are not whining, we are just saying that we think that the gunners are maybe a little too accuarate sometimes. I am quite capable in game of attacking multiple bombers and bringing them down, but this is not a scientific test, its just a way 'learning how the AI aims'.

M_Gunz
12-03-2010, 07:46 AM
It's a lot easier to shoot out of the back of a moving platform and hit what's following you than out of the front and hit just about anything but something coming right at you. Perhaps it's the angles, I dunno.

BillSwagger
12-03-2010, 08:06 AM
I've never noticed that the AI gunners are too accurate. Usually those who complain are the ones who park on their six and fire away.
If you make slashing attacks from the side most damage is minimized. I usually kick myself for getting sucked into tailing the target for more than a second and losing the engine, or PK'd.

Sometimes online with lag link, i notice gunners shoot really well and i don't even see tracers. I just fly near the bomber and my plane takes damage, even at off angles from hundreds of meters away.
There is usually a tell-tail stutter prior to engaging the bomber, and in that case i just ignore the bomber.

I actually find it challenging to man the guns and so when i fly bombers thats a big part of it for me.
I would not describe it as a laser beam, although the spread is tight, it requires pin point accuracy. Some of the cannons get a bit more leeway, like shooting bowling ball size bullets instead of tiny needles. Just my opinion though.


Bill

thefruitbat
12-03-2010, 08:17 AM
i think the gunners are fine when the bombers are flying straight and level.

the problem lies in the fact that they are just as accurate when they are pulling ridiculous high G, whereas in real life they would be struggling to keep their lunch down, let alone shoot, and that's a joke.

DKoor
12-03-2010, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
i think the gunners are fine when the bombers are flying straight and level.

the problem lies in the fact that they are just as accurate when they are pulling ridiculous high G, whereas in real life they would be struggling to keep their lunch down, let alone shoot, and that's a joke. I think you are partly right. I've been ridiculously hit while doing high speed passes from head on quadrants quite often, while in reality that could be considered the mother-of-all-sniper-lucky-shots. That is extremely hard thing to achieve because of the very hard deflection calcs that gunner must do... while their bomber is attacked from rear quadrant calcs are quite simple and straight-forward, usually just give it some lead ahead of enemy fighters nose and that's it... and those usually only work while in fairly reasonable range (200-300m).

The deflections, while bomber is being attacked from sides and upper quadrants especially by extremely fast fighters are probably the toughest targets you'll find.

And yet the bastards score shots every once and while vs such targets.

mortoma
12-06-2010, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Exact opposite, the bomber gunners are lame in this game. I have done experiments that show that when I man guns on a bomber that I'm approximately 8 times better at hitting aircraft than the AI gunners!!

Noobie players that whine about the AI gunners should count their blessing that they are not programmed to be nearly as good as I am. I repeated this experiment three times and each time I came out as about 7 to 8 times better in my aim.

what exactly was the g load you were under, sat at your desk?

what was the recoil like at your desk?

what was the slip stream like, moving those guns around in it, sat at your desk?

just curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Real life has nothing to do with this. The AI don't have to deal with slip stream, recoil or G effects either. But you do have to deal with movement of the bomber if it dodges or it starts to turn. That does seriously hurt your aiming and you have to make adjustments for that, just like you have to lead aircraft. My test only deals with my ability as a human gunner in this particular game, against the ability of the AI gunners set to ace level in this same game under the same conditions. And I get about 8 times the kills that the AI do under the same conditions. I seriously don't understand why someone has to bring in the 'real life' argument into this. Could you shoot down as many planes in a real life fighter as you can in a sim like this? If I could turn on non-existent slip, g forces and what have you I would but can't do it.

DKoor
12-06-2010, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by M2morris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:


http://www.youtube.com/user/83...#p/a/u/2/pUDWFx9DTDs (http://www.youtube.com/user/8311XHT#p/a/u/2/pUDWFx9DTDs)

ROFL

That "AAAAAHH" video bothered some people. Some think it's funny, some don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Who cares mate what anyone is thinking about your work as long as you have fun with the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
Personally I think it's funny... TBH I have yet to find discover something that bothers me in PC games... then again I'm probably really liberal for many things. http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

DKoor
12-06-2010, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Exact opposite, the bomber gunners are lame in this game. I have done experiments that show that when I man guns on a bomber that I'm approximately 8 times better at hitting aircraft than the AI gunners!!

Noobie players that whine about the AI gunners should count their blessing that they are not programmed to be nearly as good as I am. I repeated this experiment three times and each time I came out as about 7 to 8 times better in my aim.

what exactly was the g load you were under, sat at your desk?

what was the recoil like at your desk?

what was the slip stream like, moving those guns around in it, sat at your desk?

just curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Real life has nothing to do with this. The AI don't have to deal with slip stream, recoil or G effects either. But you do have to deal with movement of the bomber if it dodges or it starts to turn. That does seriously hurt your aiming and you have to make adjustments for that, just like you have to lead aircraft. My test only deals with my ability as a human gunner in this particular game, against the ability of the AI gunners set to ace level in this same game under the same conditions. And I get about 8 times the kills that the AI do under the same conditions. I seriously don't understand why someone has to bring in the 'real life' argument into this. Could you shoot down as many planes in a real life fighter as you can in a sim like this? If I could turn on non-existent slip, g forces and what have you I would but can't do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You are right, but gunner positions didn't get perhaps all 'feats' that other wing/nose mounted guns did... although some of them indeed have some spread (really visible on double guns turrets) they can be fired from the start to finish without recoil, malfunction or overheat.
Those things indeed arguably hit more gunners and their guns than aircraft whose guns are fixated and perhaps more efficiently air cooled. I guess they all had their share of malfunctions which are completely left out in sim.

We may argue this issue to death but TBH if gunners are seriously more efficient in this game than they really were IRL then something needs to be fixed, for immersion sake. I don't care let them something trim delay alike (http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif) but just make hit % near RL ratios.

thefruitbat
12-06-2010, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Exact opposite, the bomber gunners are lame in this game. I have done experiments that show that when I man guns on a bomber that I'm approximately 8 times better at hitting aircraft than the AI gunners!!

Noobie players that whine about the AI gunners should count their blessing that they are not programmed to be nearly as good as I am. I repeated this experiment three times and each time I came out as about 7 to 8 times better in my aim.

what exactly was the g load you were under, sat at your desk?

what was the recoil like at your desk?

what was the slip stream like, moving those guns around in it, sat at your desk?

just curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Real life has nothing to do with this. The AI don't have to deal with slip stream, recoil or G effects either. But you do have to deal with movement of the bomber if it dodges or it starts to turn. That does seriously hurt your aiming and you have to make adjustments for that, just like you have to lead aircraft. My test only deals with my ability as a human gunner in this particular game, against the ability of the AI gunners set to ace level in this same game under the same conditions. And I get about 8 times the kills that the AI do under the same conditions. I seriously don't understand why someone has to bring in the 'real life' argument into this. Could you shoot down as many planes in a real life fighter as you can in a sim like this? If I could turn on non-existent slip, g forces and what have you I would but can't do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

why did i bring in real life,

because i think its to easy for us, as well as the ai gunners.

its all fine when the bomber is flying level, but there is no way a human or the ai, should be able to shoot you out the back of a bf110 when its in a spiral dive pulling ridiculous G, it just wouldn't happen.

thats my problem with gunners in the game.

DKoor
12-06-2010, 09:21 AM
Ye... nearly every maneuver, unless extremely steady thru it which negates doing it in the first place anyway, will screw up gunner aim a lot and in many instances completely.
Try to shoot something say, in a SBD while your Ai buddy is doing loop maneuvers etc. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Anyhow people couldn't shoot properly from running horses let alone these steel dragons jinking around, I can already picture gunners face kissing first one side of the canopy glass, then another while his pilot leads cha-cha maneuvers around, but hell yeah he sticks firmly to his gun and is gonna pull an elite sniper **** on a pursuing Oscar, right between the eyes baby, right between the eyes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif .

PhantomKira
12-06-2010, 10:28 AM
I'd have to agree about Pe-2s. Lethal, yet flimsy.

I've found high side attacks work wonders against Bettys. Then again, most of the time when I do that, I end up stitching them nose to tail as I go by, attempting to stay out of the arch of the 20mm tail stinger. Frontal attacks work best, so long as you get them on the first pass.

Patience and setup are key. I shot down eight, probably six Bettys and two Zeros the other night. Took two hours game time, but I didn't take a single hit.

If it doesn't look right, don't press your luck. Run away and live to fight another day. Simple.

mortoma
12-06-2010, 05:53 PM
I actually attack Bettys from dead six in a P-38!! I prefer dead six in the Lightning. I can start plinking from way far back since the nose guns are so concentrated. Half of the time I 'kill' the tail gunner since I spray fire at him and not just the engines. I very rarely get a disabling or fatal hit from the 20mm tail gunner. And if the Betty is turning a bit, then it's even more unlikely that they'll hit me. And when he's flying straight, if I see a burst of tracers coming at me I'll do a little dodge maneuver and that helps. I have about a half second to react when I see a burst coming.

A technique that works well in P-39 or P-40 is to rock from side to side and while you are dodging the gunner you can spray the Betty with bullets from side to side, getting hits from one wing tip to the other. A few hits on the wings and he'll be a tinder box in no time. But the P-40 is vulnerable to engine hits so maybe go for the front, top or side attack instead. Also a barrel roll attack is good, you just spray when your gun pipper passes the Betty.

horseback
12-06-2010, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Exact opposite, the bomber gunners are lame in this game. I have done experiments that show that when I man guns on a bomber that I'm approximately 8 times better at hitting aircraft than the AI gunners!!

Noobie players that whine about the AI gunners should count their blessing that they are not programmed to be nearly as good as I am. I repeated this experiment three times and each time I came out as about 7 to 8 times better in my aim. Accuracy of ai gunners in human flown aircraft is negatively affected by the way human pilots fly, and YOUR accuracy is enhanced by the fact that ai pilots are infinitely smoother than you or I could hope to be.

AI gunners on ai piloted aircraft (especially offline) are even better than you think you are, and practically bulletproof in the bargain.

I'd rather attack a T-1000 Terminator with spitwads than an 'Ace' AI rear gunner on an Il-2 with Sidewinders.

cheers

horseback

Ba5tard5word
12-06-2010, 09:42 PM
This last Saturday in coops I got some nice revenge on a Betty...I was hitting one from the back with a Tomahawk and passed under it, and got too close and banged my tail against its tail. I blew off all of my tail except for one elevator, but I think I killed the Betty by doing that... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ROXunreal
12-06-2010, 10:16 PM
If you're getting killed by gunners you're either too slow, attacking from a wrong angle or just had bad luck. High speed BnZ from an off-6 angle almost never resulted in serious damage to me.

thefruitbat
12-07-2010, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by ROXunreal:
If you're getting killed by gunners you're either too slow, attacking from a wrong angle or just had bad luck. High speed BnZ from an off-6 angle almost never resulted in serious damage to me.

for bombers i agree 100%.

for fighters with rear gunners (such as Bf110's) i do not, unless there flying straight and level, which they won't be.

in this game its much easier to shoot down a 109 than a 110, because even when the 110 is pulling evasive manoeuvres its gunner can still hit you, which just wouldn't of happened in real life.

If the game was anything to go by, the Germans would have withdrawn the 109 from the battle of britain and kept the 110, not the other way around....

DKoor
12-07-2010, 10:10 AM
Plus the game makes one think how it is normal to hit a few meters wide moving box from 600m away, also moving -away from target-, machine gun with long bursts.

Meh the casualty rate IRL would be enormous if anything like that ocured on regular basis.

Really, the best way to express my opinion is this:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JSG72
12-07-2010, 04:21 PM
Excuse me for this reply? But a bit of philosophizing on the subject...

The AI. gunners are snipers. Able to shoot you from daft angles,through cloud, in a spiralling down aircraft.

Having played this Sim for nigh on 10yrs. Don't yous think that the message may be. That foremost in our minds as we take our Simulated Steeds into the air to do battle. The object lesson. Should be, to survive.
Shooting down the enemy is the sole reason I bought this Sim.(Especially in "Defence of the Reich" missions). However it is only more recently that I have been happy enough to survive a mission with only a kill or Probable and been happy enough to fly home ready for another day. Course I have had tracks where I have managed to shoot down 4 B17Gs in one mission. But that is with a "Devil may care" atitude. That sees me with ammo left and a need for another kill.(I sure we all do it sitting within our computer chairs.)

AFAIAC. The "Sniping Gunners" Just bring us back to reality.
Because we cannot simulate the thoughts and forces applied to the Real pilots going through these senarios. We need a "Wake up Call", to say
Hey Guy. Get real! You shouldn't be making, ace in one mission, every time.

If you want to play. Just play and switch of vulnerability

WTE_Galway
12-07-2010, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by JSG72:
Excuse me for this reply? But a bit of philosophizing on the subject...

The AI. gunners are snipers. Able to shoot you from daft angles,through cloud, in a spiralling down aircraft.

Having played this Sim for nigh on 10yrs. Don't yous think that the message may be. That foremost in our minds as we take our Simulated Steeds into the air to do battle. The object lesson. Should be, to survive.
Shooting down the enemy is the sole reason I bought this Sim.(Especially in "Defence of the Reich" missions). However it is only more recently that I have been happy enough to survive a mission with only a kill or Probable and been happy enough to fly home ready for another day. Course I have had tracks where I have managed to shoot down 4 B17Gs in one mission. But that is with a "Devil may care" atitude. That sees me with ammo left and a need for another kill.(I sure we all do it sitting within our computer chairs.)

AFAIAC. The "Sniping Gunners" Just bring us back to reality.
Because we cannot simulate the thoughts and forces applied to the Real pilots going through these senarios. We need a "Wake up Call", to say
Hey Guy. Get real! You shouldn't be making, ace in one mission, every time.

If you want to play. Just play and switch of vulnerability

Agreed.

I have never understood why people do not just program the AI at Veteran or Lower rather than ace. (ACE for a bomber is supposed to be a historically unrealistic setting where every crew member is experten on their weapon)

I think there is some ego thing involved where many people feel they have to "beat" the game on "hardest" settings to feel good about themselves.

DKoor
12-07-2010, 06:11 PM
I think you guys are pushing this a bit too far... and also mixed something up that doesn't really belong in the discussion.

It's ok to have "ace" gunner that simply means very experienced sharpshooter... what is not ok is that we have a situation where that same gunner shoots like he isn't subject to heavy G forces which would not only throw off his aim but make him in many cases physically impossible to pull out good bursts.
And yet he shoots perfect shot. That is impossible and kills the immersion.

Sorry but I don't need "compensations", be they making something too easy or too hard purely because they are not realistic and are immersion killers. To me. I'd rather left that for quake games.

thefruitbat
12-07-2010, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
I think you guys are pushing this a bit too far... and also mixed something up that doesn't really belong in the discussion.

It's ok to have "ace" gunner that simply means very experienced sharpshooter... what is not ok is that we have a situation where that same gunner shoots like he isn't subject to heavy G forces which would not only throw off his aim but make him in many cases physically impossible to pull out good bursts.
And yet he shoots perfect shot. That is impossible and kills the immersion.

Sorry but I don't need "compensations", be they making something too easy or too hard purely because they are not realistic and are immersion killers. To me. I'd rather left that for quake games.

+1000

Metatron_123
12-07-2010, 07:50 PM
I agree with the notion that it's fascinating to pretend that you really do need to survive, rather than get as many kills as possible, die, hit refly, repeat.

On the subject of gunners, maybe a future mod could prevent gunners from firing when the plane is pulling gs. I'm sure one of the A.I gurus could find a way round this...

mortoma
12-08-2010, 12:30 AM
Apparently some people are not acknowledging that there are plenty of zero G situations when gunners fire in planes that are flying in level flight and not accelerating or decelerating. And the slipstream argument is moot for tail gunners and also for top and belly gunners firing backwards. There simply are lots of situations when AI gunners don't have any problems with a firing solution.

And as far as the dude that argued that I have it easy because I fly on AI piloted planes, that's not always the case. I have flown in many coops as a gunner and done well with a human pilot too. That argument about AI flying more smoothly does not hold up to scrutiny.

RSS-Martin
12-08-2010, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by JSG72:
Excuse me for this reply? But a bit of philosophizing on the subject...

The AI. gunners are snipers. Able to shoot you from daft angles,through cloud, in a spiralling down aircraft.

Having played this Sim for nigh on 10yrs. Don't yous think that the message may be. That foremost in our minds as we take our Simulated Steeds into the air to do battle. The object lesson. Should be, to survive.
Shooting down the enemy is the sole reason I bought this Sim.(Especially in "Defence of the Reich" missions). However it is only more recently that I have been happy enough to survive a mission with only a kill or Probable and been happy enough to fly home ready for another day. Course I have had tracks where I have managed to shoot down 4 B17Gs in one mission. But that is with a "Devil may care" atitude. That sees me with ammo left and a need for another kill.(I sure we all do it sitting within our computer chairs.)

AFAIAC. The "Sniping Gunners" Just bring us back to reality.
Because we cannot simulate the thoughts and forces applied to the Real pilots going through these senarios. We need a "Wake up Call", to say
Hey Guy. Get real! You shouldn't be making, ace in one mission, every time.

If you want to play. Just play and switch of vulnerability
Yes I agree on this post! Too many still play the "invinsable Rambo" and almost never make it back!
As to those complaining about the gunners and lacking G-effect, are you fighter jocks under any G-effects? No? Then that argument can be dropped right there.
I will admit a bomber doing a barrel roll gunners should have a hard time hitting anything at all. But this is a game it has its flaws. But still the most enjoyable WWII sim on the market.