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View Full Version : "What if" - Germany in the Pacific - Storyboard Discussion



JDXKiller
08-05-2006, 08:26 AM
I opened this threat to sort your suggestions for the historical background of this scenario and split this up from the paint schemes discussion: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/45410763/m/1911019854/p/1


First, I will give a short summary of my and your
thoughts for a possible storyline background:

1935
Adolf Hitler announced that Germany would construct aircraft carriers to strengthen the Kriegsmarine. The keels of two were laid down the next year. Two years later, Grand Admiral Erich Raeder presented an ambitious shipbuilding program called Plan Z, in which four carriers were to be built by 1945. Later, he revised the plan, reducing the number to only one.

1937
Fieseler and Arado were ordered to produce prototypes for a carrier based torpedo bomber.

1938
The German Navy has always maintained a policy of not assigning a name to a ship until it is launched. This first German carrier, laid down as "Flugzeugtr├┬Ąger A" ("Aircraft carrier A"), was named Graf Zeppelin when launched.
The Fieseler torpedo bomber design proved to be superior to the Arado design, the Ar 195.

1940
Prodded by Raeder, Hitler ordered G├┬Âring to produce aircraft for the carrier and under this pressure, he offered redesigned versions of the Junkers Ju 87B and the Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3. Raeder was unhappy, but he had to accept G├┬Âring's insistence that the flying personnel would remain under Luftwaffe command. The planned Fi 167 torpedo bombers were considered no longer suitable mostly because of the obsolete biplane design. Fieseler was ordered to modernise them. The result was the Fi 170.
During a meeting held between Franco and Hitler, a German/Spanish seizure of Gibraltar was discussed. It's proposed name was "Operation Felix".

Jan 1941
As scheduled, "Operation Felix" was successfully executed on 10th January.
Raeder informed Hitler that Graf Zeppelin would be completed in about a month and that additionally several months would be required for sea trials and flight training.
Just in time, the first torpedo bombers were leaving the assembly lines.

May 1941
The German battleship Bismarck survived the relentless pursuit by the Royal Navy and escaped to the dry-dock in St Nazaire for repairs.

Jun 1941
The Graf Zeppelin was ordered into the Med to support the Regia Marina in the planned Invasion of Malta ("Operation Herkules", scheduled for mid-July 1941).

Aug 1941
After the loss of Malta, only Alexandria remained for the battered british fleet as operations base in the Med.
Without supply from Malta and constantly shelled by the Italian Navy from the sea (with Graf Zeppelin's aircraft flying several attacks on ships and installations at the harbour), Tobruk quickly fell to the Axis.

Sept 1941
The remaining soldiers, airplanes and equipment that had been managed to escape from Gibraltar and Malta were used to strenghten the border to Libya in order to repulse Rommels expected attack on Egypt at the gates.

Oct 1941
The British succeeded in stopping Rommels advance at El Alamein.

Nov 1941
The british counter-attack drove Rommel back to Solum, where he managed to establish a new front.
On Rommels demand, Hitler agreed to reinforce the Afrika Korps with several infantry and tank units from the Eastern Front.

Dec 1941
Attack on Pearl Harbour.
The Soviet Army managed to hold Moscow. Soon after a russian counter-attack, the axis forces were on full retreat.
Hitler urged the japanese for help on the Eastern Front. The japanese agreed to start an attack at the Soviet Union, in exchange Hitler promised to send a Task Force into the pacfic.

Dec 1941 - Jan 1942
This Task force consisted mainly of the Battleship Bismarck and the german carrier. The only two already completed Z-Plan "M"-Class Light Cruisers M and N (we need Names for them! Maybe: "Mainz" and "Mannheim") were directly ordered from their shipyards at Kiel and Wilhelmshaven to the Canari Islands, where the Pacific Task Force gathered in order to sail around africa. The former dutch Light Cruiser Niobe, converted for AA duty, Eight Narvik-Class destroyers and five support ships, four freighters and one tanker, completed the Task Force.
Near the Kap, the german ships had several contacts with enemy planes (?)(SAAF) for the first time and also with minor South African naval units (?) in which the crews of the two Light Cruisers gained their first combat experiences, but without suffering noticable damage.
Now alarmed, the Royal Navy immediately ordered all large ships (?) able to sail from India, Asia and the Med into the Indian Ocean, with the mission to intercept the german Task Force.
Luckily, an Arado 196 of the Task Force spotted the british fleet early, so the german ships were able to avoid it.
But this luck left the german Task Force after entering the Malakka Strait....

...to be continued



So far the story, now the units:


NAVAL TASK FORCE January 1942(thanks to Col._King):

- Bismarck (Tirpitz stays in Norway to patrol the american and british supply routes to russia)

- Graf Zeppelin (Shokaku) with Bf109T (Bf109E-7/Z), Ju87C (Ju87B), Fi170 (IL-2T) and Fi156

- two "M" class Cruisers (Kirov)
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/cruiser/kreuzerm/index.html

- eight "Narvik" class Destroyers (Tashkent or Type 7)

- four Tankers and one Cargo Ship

- Niobe Flak-Cruiser (very slow, so could be assigned to escort convois sent from germany to supply the pacific Task Force)

- several Ar196 aboard the Bismarck and the Cruisers


LW LAND-BASED TASK FORCE:

- will consist mainly of parts of Luftflotte 2 (already experienced in anti-ship warfare and no longer needed over Malta and the Western Med)

details of Aircrafts and Squadrons later (will include Ju88, He111H6, Bf110, Bf109F4, Ju52 Seaplane, BV222 (H8K) and more)...


Ok, first units (only a minimum of units so far, if you need more, please tell):



L U F T F L O T T E 2


- estimated (servicable), type, unit, korps

TACTICAL (CLOSE) RECON:
- 16(3), BF 110 C-4 (with a few Bf 109), 2.(H)/14, Fl.F├╝.Afrika

LONG RANGE RECON:
- 10(7), Ju 88 D-1, 1.(F)/122, II.Fl.Kps
- ?(?), BV 222, ?, ?

DAY FIGHTERS:
- 23(6), Bf 109 F-4, I./JG 27, Fl.F├╝.Afrika

NIGHT FIGHTERS:
- 12(8), Ju 88 C-6, I./NJG 2., II.Fl.Kps
(only if possible to use as night fighters, if not I will try to find a Bf 110 unit)

TWIN ENGINED FIGHTERS (Zerst├┬Ârer):
- 17(10), Bf 110 D-3, III./ZG 26, II.Fl.Kps

LONG RANGE BOMBERS:
- 27(13), Ju 88 A-4, I./LG 1, X.Fl.Kps
or 27(11), Ju 88 A-4, II./LG 1, X.Fl.Kps
- 30(10), He 111 H-6, II./KG 26, II.Fl.Kps

COASTAL RECON:
- 9(9), Ar 196, 2./125, X.Fl.Kps

TRANSPORT:
- 42(25), Ju 52 Seaplane, III./KG.z.b.V 1

For now, that's it from me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Please tell me what you all think and what should be added, replaced or corrected.



Fly Friendly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HuninMunin
08-05-2006, 08:39 AM
Just what I had in mind.
Great job, old chap. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

PS
WOULD YOU PLEASE FINALY GIVE ME YOUR EMAIL; I HAVE COMPLETED THE ******* SKIN FOR YOU! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEXX_Luthor
08-05-2006, 05:43 PM
Hey, that's pretty creative.

However, the interesting thing is here...


The japanese agreed to start an attack at the Soviet Union,
This 1941-194x air war and aircraft matchups would make the greatest story that was never possible to tell until FB/PF Merged.

Just Japanese Army, or NAVY planes included. You need the Zero to escort bombers deep into Soviet territory. MiG-3 interceptors vs Zero escorts at high altitude. mmm

My fave fantasy scenario is Barbarossa-1940, where Germany moves east late summer after the fall of France, and the Bf-110's image as the Elite Luftwaffe air superiority fighter (it was considered so until Battle of Britain) is not shattered over Britain but instead faces escorting LW bombers deep into Soviet territory. Remember 1940 -- No Yaks, No LaGGs, No MiGs.

darkhorizon11
08-05-2006, 06:03 PM
I don't think the Germans would have made out very well in the Pacific. Only one Uboat actually made it there in 1945 on the Western side of Austrailia...

As for the KM is was far too small and even if a stronger effort was put into building it up it still paled in comparison. The Graf Zeppelin although an honorable effort was really an obsolete carrier by 1942, the Essex class carrier would have been far to much for the German surface based fleet even if they were able to muster four or five GZ class carriers by this time.

For Germany to compete in the shipbuilding race and stand a chance it would have been a massive redirection of resources and manpower started before Hitler came to power in 33. Not to much how much of these resources and manpower would have to be reverted away away from the Wehrmacht and LW to develop such a fleet.

Still its a novel idea I enjoy reading more, a GZ would be nice in BoB if there is extra time! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PBNA-Boosher
08-05-2006, 06:14 PM
I have a few suggestions for your storyline. I'll post them here.

I'll start where you left off.

Dec 1941
Attack on Pearl Harbour.
The Soviet Army managed to hold Moscow. Soon after a Russian counter-attack, the axis forces were on full retreat.
Hitler urged the japanese for help on the Eastern Front. The japanese agreed to start an attack at the Soviet Union, in exchange Hitler promised to send a Task Force into the Pacfic.

Jan. 1942
German fleet is prepped and ready. Pilots selected from the elite of a variety of squadrons. Sailors and ships have been taken out of separate fleets and assigned to their new positions, but, unfortunately, in the process of trying to assemble the fleet from all of their different locations, one of the Narvik destroyers, just commissioned in Kiel, was intercepted on its way to the Med and took heavy damage, forcing it to port in Brest, and one of the "M" class cruisers suffered light damage during an air attack on its way there as well. Everything else has made it safely into port at Naples.

Feb. 1942
After much training, first on land, and finally on the Graf Zeppelin itself, the pilots are comfortable landing on the carrier and the equipment has been prepped. The Graf Zeppelin's pilots are now honing in their skills using combined flight training missions. The Bf-109T's are practicing close-escort formation on the Ju-87C's. Several of the Fi-170 pilots are trying to adjust to a tendency for the left landing gear to collapse on rough landings, even though the gear was strengthened for carrier landings. The crew chiefs believe it has something to do with the main strut, but cannot locate the problem. This will cause another month's delay. Meanwhile, High Command is still working out how it might be possible to get around South Africa without getting intercepted with the heavier ships of the British fleet.

These are just suggestions. I can write more if you like. I also do a lot of research, so I can do probabilities for you if you'd like. Just trying to help.

BfHeFwMe
08-05-2006, 10:26 PM
One of the prime reasons the British and French went to war in WWI with Germany was the Kaisers political policy of changing Germany from a major land power to a naval power. They weren't about to allow this. It also hurt Germany badly in the long term land battle, since she put so much energy into a partial navy sitting safely in port, instead of the army.

I don't think they were about to fall for the same trap twice. Look at the BOB, big army with no way to get there.

Besides everyone knows Kreigsmarine boats can't survive in Pacific waters, their hulls would overheat and melt, be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

JDXKiller
08-06-2006, 06:19 AM
Hi PBNA-Boosher,

originally it was only planned as storyboard for a campaign, but I like the novel touch you try to add to it. Nevertheless, I found some little problems in your story:


PBNA-Boosher:
Jan. 1942
...unfortunately, in the process of trying to assemble the fleet from all of their different locations, one of the Narvik destroyers, just commissioned in Kiel, was intercepted on its way to the Med and took heavy damage, forcing it to port in Brest, and one of the "M" class cruisers suffered light damage during an air attack on its way there as well. Everything else has made it safely into port at Naples.
I don't think the pacific Task Force will gather in the Med, because it will have to go round Kap Horn. I think they will more likely meet at the Canari Islands.



PBNA-Boosher:
Feb. 1942
After much training, first on land, and finally on the Graf Zeppelin itself, the pilots are comfortable landing on the carrier and the equipment has been prepped. The Graf Zeppelin's pilots are now honing in their skills using combined flight training missions....
I think the Pilots are already well trained, don' forget flight training started a year ago and that they have already flown combat missions over Malta and Tobruk.



PBNA-Boosher:
Feb. 1942
...This will cause another month's delay. Meanwhile, High Command is still working out how it might be possible to get around South Africa without getting intercepted with the heavier ships of the British fleet.
The campaign in the pacific has to start end january 1942 at the latest, so no delay. And the british fleet will be busy holding it's last stand in the Eastern Med and the British Isles, so I think the Task Force will have no problems reaching the pacific. Later, the supply convoys from germany will have even more problems to survive this long journey.



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PBNA-Boosher
08-06-2006, 07:35 AM
Rgr, just suggestions as I hadn't seen an update in a while. I look forward to the campaign!

cawimmer430
08-07-2006, 05:48 AM
Germany wasn't a naval power, their ships and U-Boats were needed elsewhere.

The best Hitler could have done was send some U-Boats to the Pacific to help out his Asian allies. And the Germans did that. During the war, numerous trips on both sides were undertaken to transport raw materials (Japanese) to technology (Germans). The Germans even sent a Focke-Wulf FW-190 and a Me-163B Komet via U-Boat to Japan, complete with blueprints, though I believe the U-Boat carrying the Komet was sunk and never made it.

HuninMunin
08-07-2006, 06:17 AM
Thats why its a what if.
Read the first post. Germany was a naval power. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JDXKiller
08-07-2006, 06:26 AM
I know, Christian, but this should only be a fictional "What If?" campaign, so please don't care if it doesn't fit historically. By the way, the influence of german technology into japanese aircraft designs has even gone further:

- The Ki-61 is nearly a copy of the He-100, converted from liquid cooled engine to air cooled one.

- Heinkel He-66, He-70 and He-74 strongly influenced the development of the Aichi D3A dive bomber.

- So did the He-118, in case of Yososuka D4Y Suisei.

- Your're right, the "Komet" never reached Japan, but they did receive a Walter HWK 109 rocket engine and an engineers-manual of the plane, so they were able to re-construct it on their own (Mitsubishi J8M Shusui). At least 7 planes had been build till the end of the war.

- They even copied the Me-262 (Nakajima Kikka) and did build, only slightly modified, 2 prototypes before their capitulation (18 more were already on the assembly lines).


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cawimmer430
08-07-2006, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Thats why its a what if.
Read the first post. Germany was a naval power. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yep, I can read. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Germany was only a "naval power" because of its U-Boats. It's surface fleet was too small to be a match against the Royal Navy. Understandable.

Britain, island nation = strong navy smaller army.

Germany, continental nation = strong army, smaller navy.

HuninMunin
08-07-2006, 06:30 AM
Well, we'll bloody well make her a naval power. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

cawimmer430
08-07-2006, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by JDXKiller:
I know, Christian, but this should only be a fictional "What If?" campaign, so please don't care if it doesn't fit historically. By the way, the influence of german technology into japanese aircraft designs has even gone further:

- The Ki-61 is nearly a copy of the He-100, converted from liquid cooled engine to air cooled one.

- Heinkel He-66, He-70 and He-74 strongly influenced the development of the Aichi D3A dive bomber.

- Your're right, the "Komet" never reached Japan, but they did receive a Walter HWK 109 rocket engine and an engineers-manual of the plane, so they were able to re-construct it on their own (Mitsubishi J8M Shusui). At least 7 planes had been build till the end of the war.

- They even copied the Me-262 (Nakajima Kikka) and did build, only slightly modified, 2 prototypes before their capitulation (18 more were already on the assembly lines).


Fly Friendly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I know I know, let the "what if's" continue. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Impressive information, thanks. Also, I believe the Val was a direct copy of one of those Heinkel fighter aircraft from the 1930s, which the Luftwaffe rejected in favor of the BF-109. I also read somewhere that the guys at Aichi who designed the Val, were all former students of Ernst Heinkel, hence the design influence.

cawimmer430
08-07-2006, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Well, we'll bloody well make her a naval power. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DuxCorvan
08-07-2006, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
Also, I believe the Val was a direct copy of one of those Heinkel fighter aircraft from the 1930s, which the Luftwaffe rejected in favor of the BF-109.

He 112. All Heinkel aircraft since He 66 and He 70 had that characteristic oval wing that makes He 111 and others so easily recognizable.

Aichi D3A shares it. And also the 'oval' tail shape that is also very 'Heinkelian'.

sam_fisher091
08-07-2006, 11:29 AM
The only way Germany could have made it into the Pacific was if they defeated Russia in '41. Then they could have sent over the entire Kreigsmarine to Eastern Russia if they wanted, then load them with troops, tanks and artillery.

Even if they did do that, it wouldn't have helped Japan much anyway. Japan needed aircraft carriers and ships, not 10+ infantry and armored divisions, which was what Germany could have supplied from their relatively small navy.

Even if they did, how would they supply bases on tiny islands that are 4,000+ miles away from Berlin?

A German campaign in the Pacific was only feasible if:

a.They had defeated Russia
b.Manage to get the Kreigsmarine to Vlaidivostok without being destroyed by partisans.
c.Found a viable supply route

None of them could have happened. B cannot happen without doing a first doing A.

HuninMunin
08-08-2006, 02:54 PM
Shameless bump for this, as we are very seriously working on this now.

WWMaxGunz
08-08-2006, 10:11 PM
If Germany had started building big ships early then would Britain have continued with
the appeasment policy? I doubt it very much. It's one thing to hide tank and plane
development and another to lay big warship keels without being noticed.

JDXKiller
08-09-2006, 03:34 AM
WWMaxGunz:
If Germany had started building big ships early then would Britain have continued with
the appeasment policy? I doubt it very much. It's one thing to hide tank and plane
development and another to lay big warship keels without being noticed.
What do you mean with "If Germany had started building big ships early..."? This part of my story is nearly identical to reality. I only REDUCED the number of carriers beeing built from 2 to 1, in order to speed up timeline for it's construction a bit. If you need more info about the only german aircraft-carrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_Graf_Zeppelin
A different story are the Z-Plan "M"-Class Light Cruisers. In my story I assume that at least two of them had been built. How much that would have had worried the British, I cannot say.


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okb001
08-11-2006, 08:59 AM
Hello there,

Please forgive my ignorance, in your description you wrote: "Graf Zeppelin (Shokaku)" Does that mean at a Japanese ship will be used to simulate the German aircraft-carrier?

I'm pretty new to IL2FB+AEP+FP, but I'm really looking forward to taking the trap in a 109 :-)

Cheers,

JDXKiller
08-11-2006, 10:04 AM
okb001:
Hello there,

Please forgive my ignorance, in your description you wrote: "Graf Zeppelin (Shokaku)" Does that mean at a Japanese ship will be used to simulate the German aircraft-carrier?

I'm pretty new to IL2FB+AEP+FP, but I'm really looking forward to taking the trap in a 109 :-)

Cheers,
Hi okb001,

and YES, if this campaign will ever be released, the Shokaku will be the fake for the Graf Zepplin. We all agreed that it resembles the GZ the most of all available carriers in this game.



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okb001
08-11-2006, 10:12 AM
Thanks for you reply JDXKiller. I have seen some pictures of the 3D model of the Germain Graf Zepplin in another thread ... I guess it's not possible to get it in IL2 ...

BTW, I like the story-line you guys have put together so far. Good job :-)

HuninMunin
08-11-2006, 11:33 AM
Hi there.
We have a lot more then just the story now. Browse this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/45410763/m/1911019854/p/11

okb001
08-11-2006, 12:30 PM
Hi there.
We have a lot more then just the story now. Browse this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/45410763/m/1911019854/p/11

ha yes I have been looking at it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Very nice!

Tater-SW-
09-09-2006, 09:34 AM
A few points:

1. Try to avoid CV duels unless the KM TF is operating attached to the Kido Butai.

2. Assume that the IJN actually learned the lesson that they should have from Pearl Harbor. It was this (as stated very well in Shattered Sword):

There are 2 types of targets for the IJN. Targets that deserve ALL if the IJN CVs to attack in a coordinated way, and targets that deserve NONE of the CVs to attack. Splitting up the Kido Butai for any reason consigns them to early destruction in detail.

3. A possible plane to add for maritime patrol would be one of, if not the best seaplanes of the entire war, the H8K. In many cases the LW planes were clearly superior to anything the japanese made, the H8K was in a league of it's own, they'd have been hard-pressed to build a better seaplane. Unfortunately the game never provided a decent sized merchant ship to act as a tender for them.

4. Say what you like about the first date for available nukes (or bases from which to launch attacks), but the capability to build warships of the US is astounding in ww2. Same for merchant shipping. Japan was a huge producer of merchant shipping (exporting a lot, too), and the US produced more merchant shipping in the beginning of 1943 than the japanese produced shipping from 1937 to the end of the war. The logistical battle is impossible for them to overcome. Impossible. The overall pace should think of this. Also, the PTO was the poor stepchild compared to the ETO in terms of US effort, if the US cannot easily more stuff to the ETO and fight, they might rethink the ETO and pour more effort into the PTO.

5. when planning possible CV battles, the US ships are effectively disposible, even Essex Class CVs. Sink them, we'll make more. Axis CVs are irreplacible.

6. The IJN has very very little bunker oil. Short oil supply absolutely curtained their operations, tying the fleet to port. They realyl did need the war to be over in months, after a couple years, they had to hold the fleet in close to save oil for the "decisive battle." IJN doctrine was built on this, any change to that (wrong) doctrine would require starting the alternate history at the Meiji Restoration and totrally rewriting IJN doctrine.

7. Another possible alternate history addition. India was a big issue. The UK promised India self-determination for helping the war effort. You might assume some kind of civil war around that issue in india. You could have Axis-aligned and Free India forces fighting (with bizzare combos of planes possible <G&gthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. This could provide a safe haven in the Indian Ocean for the KM to retreat to. Perhaps the Axis gets what is now Pakistan (their population having an affinity for some of Germany's policies).

8. I'd try to allow just enough alternate history for the KM to get to operate in the PTO/CBI area, and not too much otherwise it quickly becomes a 1946 thing (and even with the '46 add-on, the US is left with no new content).

9. Torpedo attacks are rediculously easy in PF since ships cannot evade at all, particularly with a tank like the IL-2. Since all the other sides have to use AI VTs, the mission builder can easily control the number of hits. Player-flown VTs are very destabilizing, IMO. Be careful planning attacks.

10. By the time Essex Class CVs show up, US AAA protection should be truely frightening. For FR reason it usually has to be toned very far down, making the loss of ships way too easy (see #9). Careful balance is important here. Even with horrific damage from Kamikazes, the USN lost ZERO Essex CVs. ZERO. Great damage control, not the cake walk it is to sink them in PF.

11. If you send full-sized strike packages from the GZ, remember the size of airgroups they are fighting--twice their size per USN CV, about the same for a USN CVE.


tater

OldMan____
09-09-2006, 10:32 AM
I think this would make war only much easier for allies. Japan would be crushed by SU on soil (as they were a very few years earlier on that not very public known squirmish before war erupted. Where Zukov, much earlier than any gemrn gerneral implemented most of the principles of the mobile warfare.

On sea germans would have no chance. Royal Navy would sitck their teeth on KM as soon as it moved into ocean. Open battle KM had no chance against RN. Simply 10 BB would run over KM task force. If germany still had some colonies at africa this could change everything.

The best hope for germany helping japan was if they had succeeded cuttng main UK from suplies and forcing a treaty. Then thing could change completely.

IF italy had succeded in north africa (or if hitler had commited alittle bit more than almost nothing to Rommel's command) The suez channel could be axis. And this would again change everything. Italian navy IF preserved was in better condition of helping IJN.

Tater-SW-
09-09-2006, 10:34 AM
For the land-based forces, why no FW-200s? That's a cool plane to see.

tater

OldMan____
09-09-2006, 10:35 AM
BTW.. something that I think could have been interesting would be a few ME 262 in pacific. These as fast bombers could possibly be an usable weapon against carriers. Its very difficult to fight planes flying 800 kph sea level when your AAA is used to fighting slow jap planes. I would bet in a few Essex carrirs sunk before US could reorganize its defense system.

HuninMunin
09-10-2006, 05:51 AM
I did a few skins for them.
But they will only be operated from land.
Maybe the new one from '46 will be better suited for carrier ops.

MM-Zorin
09-10-2006, 08:12 AM
IF italy had succeded in north africa (or if hitler had commited alittle bit more than almost nothing to Rommel's command) The suez channel could be axis. And this would again change everything. Italian navy IF preserved was in better condition of helping IJN.

We'll develop an altered version of the Iraqi Coup in spring 1941. With the need for strength and support in the middle east for further operations in the Red Sea and Pacific waters, there will be more support in troops and technology brought in through Vichy French held Syria, as it did happen actually, and therefor a defeat of the british troops and an installation of a new iraqi government.

As a result, the british forces on the african contintent will be incircled by the italian/german troops from the west and the iraqi/german troops from the east. Making a defeat inevitable.

Luchando
09-21-2006, 03:57 AM
I do not know how far the storyboard for this hypothetical campaign has come, but I want to add a possible economic-strategic feature.
There is a anime movie called "Zipang" on youtube, where a modern japanese frigate gets into the second World War, at least giving some historic information to the ancient japanese combatants. One is about large oilfields in the russian parts of manchuria, which will have been found in the 1950. What if the japanese got their grip earlier on these, having then over land safer supply routes for crude oil...?
This would have altered strategic possibilites.

Vipez-
09-21-2006, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Luchando:
I do not know how far the storyboard for this hypothetical campaign has come, but I want to add a possible economic-strategic feature.
There is a anime movie called "Zipang" on youtube, where a modern japanese frigate gets into the second World War, at least giving some historic information to the ancient japanese combatants. One is about large oilfields in the russian parts of manchuria, which will have been found in the 1950. What if the japanese got their grip earlier on these, having then over land safer supply routes for crude oil...?
This would have altered strategic possibilites.

Even though I cannot understand people who like anime, this reminded me of a certain movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/).. It would be much more interesting, if the modern carrier would be japanese indeed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BBB_Hyperion
09-21-2006, 05:50 AM
What if a IJN CV Task Force blocked Suez from the other Side in 42 ?

HuninMunin
09-21-2006, 06:48 AM
As to the general plot we plan; I can say ( without spoiling anything) that there will be the conclusion drawn by both the Japanese and German government, that a deep cooperation between them will be crucial from late 1941 on, for various strategic reasons.
With the upcoming "official" What If of the '46 addon in mind, we will try to take a route that leaves room for it and therefor create a consistant and believable alternative WWII, that will allow more projects in the future.
When I look at the possibilitys we'll have with 4.07, we can even recreate an alternative Korea
or something in similar direction.
My greatest hope would be to create a kind fictional background that has a degree of realism and gives as much possibilitys for mission and scenario design, that it could be widely accepted and adopted by other members of this community.

If there is a place where a group of people can come up with this, it's right here.

darkhorizon11
09-21-2006, 10:09 AM
IRL, if the war was turning out differently Germany probably would have been better off with a long range recon wing of FW-200s and fostering Japanese jet development.

No matter how you slice it the German Navy really couldn't stand up to the Royal Navy.

MM-Zorin
10-10-2006, 03:50 PM
I have two requests.

1. I need someone to provide me with all data dealing with the allied forces stationed in the middle east during the period of 1939 till 1941.

2. I need all info about the german troop swhich started the invasion of russia. Where they were stationed, route they took and so on.

Any help would be highly appreciated, but don't point me to any books. I have no time nor the money to deal with them. So pure info would be the best.