PDA

View Full Version : MAYDAY - FOR ACE´S ONLY



Asas_Portuga1
02-06-2008, 05:47 AM
Hi

this is a rather specific post, cause i realy need your (ace's) expertise (?) in this one.

Since i started IL2, the difficult stuff for me, still r the ACM. i already dl some ACM Tools to see how can i performe them, but the thing is, i can´t do same in an QBM, for ex.

Can sameone, send me tracks of Il2, executing ACM??? (to my Mail )cause, one thing is observing ACM in an tool, another is looking at the manouver with the settings of IL2.

i hope this post isn't a bit confuse. I'm not expressing in my on language, so i'm trying by best.

cy a

ASAS

GIAP.Shura
02-06-2008, 07:09 AM
I presume you are talking about Air Combat Maneuvres. Which ones in particular are giving you difficulty? Can you explain why you are having difficulty performing them in IL-2? Do you mean that you don't know what they look like from the cockpit or that you are losing control of the plane?

leitmotiv
02-06-2008, 07:20 AM
There is a superb ACM instructional program available, which I own, with move-by-move displays of all known maneuvers. I have it on my game puter, but it is knocked out right now and I can't get the name of it. Will post when I can.

Asas_Portuga1
02-06-2008, 08:55 AM
Hi GIAP,

yes,u're rigth. well, as far as ACM concernes, i'm havim troubles with most of them( Scissors, Break, Barrel Roll Attack, Split S, Immelmann M). I know the teory, but i'can't execute them, cause i never saw a, shall we say, step by step track training.
And, u're regth again, on your secopnd Q. , couse, in order to achieve firing position while not being threatened by the enemy's guns,
i 'm loosing control of the plane and can't performe the manouver in order to shoot down the bandit.
If u have some tracks or programes to help me, it would be great.

my mail: asas_Portuga1@yahoo.com

tanks in advance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Asas_Portuga1
02-06-2008, 09:02 AM
Hi, Leitmotiv

tanks. i'm looking fowoard for that ACM program http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I'm tired of getting shoot down, by AI planes(as u can image i don't play online just yet)

u can send it to may mail: asas_Portuga1@yahoo.com

cy a and once again tanks

MOH_MADMAN
02-06-2008, 11:05 AM
old advice

get yourself a copy of Shaws book.
do some reading and previz of maneuvers, take a couple of toy planes to the can if you have to, itll make itself clear by doing this.
then applyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TSmoke
02-06-2008, 09:21 PM
The lack of basic training for new people in this game has always a dissapointment in my opinion.

The vast majority of all the flight sims in the late 80's to later 90's had at least some basic instruction and ACM training.

But like someone said read Shaws book, or any book on basic ACM and practice the movements with diecast models of cheapazz plastic one, heck even a paper plane with a stick up it's butt will work. The stick gives ya something to hold on to.

If you can find a copy of CFS2 there is a training section in it.

Asas_Portuga1
02-07-2008, 04:57 AM
tanks for the help. i'll try to do as u sugested

Asas_Portuga1
02-07-2008, 04:59 AM
hi,

i'll try to find that shaws book u said.

tanks for the post. asas

GIAP.Shura
02-07-2008, 09:23 AM
S! Asas,

The first thing is that you shouldn't be thinking of air combat maneuvres as a set of answers to a set of questions. In other words, it is not "if he does this I should do that and I will shoot him down". Being able to perform these maneuvres means nothing without the practice of judging which maneuvres are applicable and just as importantly, the moment at which they should be executed.

Often kadet pilots think that their problems are that they don't have sufficient ACM knowledge or that, somehow, they can't make them work and this is why they can't get kills. I would say that the majority of the time they are mistaken and that they often overate ACM. In my opinion a kadet, or any pilot for that matter, should have three priorities:

1. Gunnery

The purpose of all ACM is to get your guns on the target. If you can't hit at that point then everything else is superfluous. Proper understanding of gunnery requires familiarisation with your sight, understanding of your convergence settings and experience with deflection shooting. A split-S never killed anyone, well, except for the pilot who tries to split-S without enough altitude, which leads to the next priority.

2. Learning the characteristics of your aircraft

By this I mean learning to fly it without stalling, how it accelerates in dives, how easily it turns at different speeds, at what speeds it becomes difficult to control or breaks up, how well it climbs, etc. These are fundamental to surviving basic flight as well as essential to the 3rd priority. I suspect one of the reasons why you are having difficulty executing your maneuvres is that you haven't explored the basic flight characteristics of your aircraft, especially its stall characteristics, and that you are being too rough in its handling.

3. Gaining a full understanding of energy as applicable to air combat

If you understand energy then you can understand the mechanics of air combat and most likely the reasons why your current efforts to use ACM are unsuccessful. Shaw's book is excellent but is very dry and if English is not your first language you may find it quite hard to follow. There are several excellent articles here which are probably more accessible:

Link (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html#vault)

A lot of the ACM that you describe above are defensive in nature. If you are often finding yourself in situations which require these then you need to work on your tactics and situational awareness more than your ACM.

I sorry that I am dodging your request for tracks of specific ACMs but actually performing the setpiece ACMs themselves is no real problem if you have good control of your aircraft but they won't lead to a kill if you don't seriously address the issues above.

Il-2 is a demanding sim in terms of flight characteristics.

Airmail109
02-07-2008, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Asas_Portuga1:
Hi GIAP,

yes,u're rigth. well, as far as ACM concernes, i'm havim troubles with most of them( Scissors, Break, Barrel Roll Attack, Split S, Immelmann M). I know the teory, but i'can't execute them, cause i never saw a, shall we say, step by step track training.
And, u're regth again, on your secopnd Q. , couse, in order to achieve firing position while not being threatened by the enemy's guns,
i 'm loosing control of the plane and can't performe the manouver in order to shoot down the bandit.
If u have some tracks or programes to help me, it would be great.

my mail: asas_Portuga1@yahoo.com

tanks in advance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Scissors is easy simply roll one way turn, roll back the other way turn repeat.

If your in a low-wing loading fighter add some flavour to it and chop the throttle and drop flaps if theres someone on your 6. If your losing control its because your pulling on the stick to hard whilst not having enough lift because you dont have enough speed. This is called stalling.

Learn about energy, the aim of combat flying is to keep your kinetic (speed) and potential (height) energy as high as possible ALL the time. One can make up for a lack of the other to a certain extent. And make your opponent bleed his.

So lets say you dive an an enemey below you, whos slower and turning. You come in with a height advantage and lots of speed. The BAD thing to do in this siuation would be waste all your energy by turning with him. The GOOD thing to do would be to swoop down on him, make 1 pass then go into the vertical gain a lot of height back then reverse and come back down on him. Retaining much of your energy and making you less vulnerable.

Urufu_Shinjiro
02-07-2008, 10:27 AM
Seems like you are a prime candidate for this: www.joint-ops.com (http://www.joint-ops.com) . It's an online flight school for il2, and one of the main things they do is demo and teach proper ACM techniques. Check'em out, it's free and very fun.

Asas_Portuga1
02-07-2008, 10:34 AM
cheers GIAP,

execelent post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif !!!

in fact, i'm a relactive new "Kadet" of IL2. I new other sims, like CFS and LOCK ON, but when i saw IL2 i said ...UAU , i've been lost all this years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

i have to say u're quite rigth, when u write " I sustect one of the reasons....handling", cause i confess, that i did not spend enouth time exploring the caracteristics of the plane.( i usually use BF 109 models, i like them very much or japanese zeros).

I realy give too much importance to ACM. I will do as u (and others menmbers) say, folow your three steps and pratice as well as i can.

I can promise u one thing, i'll keep u post it of my progress.

Tanks o lot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

asas

Crash_Moses
02-07-2008, 10:35 AM
Hey, leitmotiv...is ACMVIZ what you're thinking of?

Here's the website: http://www.digins.com/TopGun/

S!

Xiolablu3
02-07-2008, 10:36 AM
I think its all a problem with your speed.

WW2 fighters have a Power to weight ratio less than one, you cant just poin the nose to the sky and expect it to go up.

Think of it like a powered glider, you need to build up speed before you can execute most manouvres.

It takes a long time to gain height/speed but very little time to lose it again.

Get yourself up high and to a decent speed before you try these ACM.

leitmotiv
02-07-2008, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
Hey, leitmotiv...is ACMVIZ what you're thinking of?

Here's the website: http://www.digins.com/TopGun/

S!


That's it! I have it, and I recommend it to everybody. Far more comprehensible than Shaw (I read him yars ago). You will understand maneuvers readily with this. Thanks CM---my memory is full of holes! Get it Asas_Portuga!

Crash_Moses
02-07-2008, 10:47 AM
No hay problema. I'm pretty sure you recommended it to me awhile back. I concur...very helpful.

I believe the first three chapters are available on-line for those that want to try before they buy.

Asas_Portuga1
02-07-2008, 10:52 AM
tanks, 'ill try to do as u say.


asas

Asas_Portuga1
02-07-2008, 10:55 AM
Hi, CRASH

very nice!!!!

tanks.

asas

Asas_Portuga1
02-07-2008, 10:59 AM
ok. But, and when i'm in the process of gaining heigth/speed, and i'm geting persuit by a bandit? what shall i'll do? go up? Down? full speeD?? don't the engin overheat?

asas

Asas_Portuga1
02-07-2008, 11:00 AM
DONE !!!

tanks

leitmotiv
02-07-2008, 07:49 PM
Don't worry. Getting blown out of the sky 1000 times is part of the learning process. You will figure out the best tactics for you and your favorite "mount." I learned by using I-153s and I-16s against Bf 109Fs. I died constantly but I learned a great deal. Often nothing works better than unexpected, crazy maneuvers. Good luck!

Asas_Portuga1
02-08-2008, 02:27 AM
hi again,

but aren't Bf 109Fs too fast and too powerful in all aspects for I-153s and I-16s?

how can u manage to escape? and manouver at the same time?? hope this is mot a stupid q.

asas

Xiolablu3
02-08-2008, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by Asas_Portuga1:
ok. But, and when i'm in the process of gaining heigth/speed, and i'm geting persuit by a bandit? what shall i'll do? go up? Down? full speeD?? don't the engin overheat?

asas

Get the speed/height BEFORE you find the Bandit.

Its better not to climb with a bandit on your tail, try and dive.

Climbing makes you a sitting duck/easy target.

AnaK774
02-08-2008, 04:24 AM
Couple clips i made while ago

Some 39 action in weeds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RslllAOTW5Q

And some spit action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2uFpaRWvLA

All taken on Winds of War server

Asas_Portuga1
02-08-2008, 09:04 AM
Hi,

i unsderstood the concept Xiolablu, but i have a doubt. when dinving to escape the bandit, wont i became an easy target also? I mean, he's on top of me, so he as the advantage over me. i'm wronG'??

so, wath can i do to get out of that situation? should i roll ritgh in the end of the dive and start going up? ou roll and breaK left or ritgh??

tanks

asas

Asas_Portuga1
02-08-2008, 09:06 AM
Great Post.

tanks ANAK

Xiolablu3
02-08-2008, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Asas_Portuga1:
Hi,

i unsderstood the concept Xiolablu, but i have a doubt. when dinving to escape the bandit, wont i became an easy target also? I mean, he's on top of me, so he as the advantage over me. i'm wronG'??

so, wath can i do to get out of that situation? should i roll ritgh in the end of the dive and start going up? ou roll and breaK left or ritgh??

tanks

asas

It all depends what plane you are flying, and what plane he is flying.

If you are in a Spitfire, and hes in a FW190, then break break break, turn hard and tight.

If you are in a FW190 and hes in a Spitfire, then Dive hard and fast. A diving target is a much harder target, and you can dive faster.

If you are in a Hellcat and hes in a Zero, then Dive hard and fast, maybe turn when you are up to a fast speed, as the Zero cant turn as well at high speeds, but better at low speeds.

If you are in a Zero and hes in a Hellcat, try and draw him into a slow turning fight. Although clever pilots wont play this game with you.

Try to think like this :- 'if theres a bandit on your tail and within range, you have already done something wrong'

I know it happens to us all occasionally, but try and stop this from happening. You want to be high and fast at all times if possible.

Read up on energy fighting. get online and fly with some pilot. Ukded servers are a good plance to start.