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Climatik
07-23-2005, 12:14 PM
http://www.military.cz/accessories/solder_of_future/fut...warriors/weapons.jpg (http://www.military.cz/accessories/solder_of_future/future_warriors/weapons.jpg)

Pic of some of the new weapons as opposed to a regular M4 i believe at the top.

God those other guns look ugly.

Agent Green
07-23-2005, 03:22 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Eww. Those do look quite ugly. Any idea what the requirements for the prototype were? I'm curious about what looks like folding abilities. Something kind of like the old Ares?

Honeyman69
07-23-2005, 06:34 PM
Wow, only the Top one I think looks even..ugh...

Thunderpants1
07-23-2005, 07:27 PM
I think the XM8 is what were going with for standard infantry.

Hatchetforce
07-24-2005, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Thunderpants1:
I think the XM8 is what were going with for standard infantry.

The XM8 program is on hold. And by that I mean likely a permanent hold. Re-evaluations are currently ongoing. Topping the list is an alternative caliber. Right now 6.8 is leading the charge thanks to the fact that we are already using 6.8 uppers on our M4s in Iraq. Look for the rest of the Army to follow suit. FN is currently fielding some of the best candidates with their SCAR assault system.

WhiteKnight77
07-24-2005, 09:59 AM
I would suggest you listen to this fellow. If you don't know who he is, think 5th SFG at Ft. Campbell.

I didn't know you had an accout here HF.

jchung
07-24-2005, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Hatchetforce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunderpants1:
I think the XM8 is what were going with for standard infantry.

The XM8 program is on hold. And by that I mean likely a permanent hold. Re-evaluations are currently ongoing. Topping the list is an alternative caliber. Right now 6.8 is leading the charge thanks to the fact that we are already using 6.8 uppers on our M4s in Iraq. Look for the rest of the Army to follow suit. FN is currently fielding some of the best candidates with their SCAR assault system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is right.

The M8 has experienced meltdowns in field testing, and still uses the lame 5.56mm ammo.

Ironically the M468 is somewhat of a throwback to the original AR10 that started the whole M16 lineup. Whereas the M16 was essentially an AR10 "lite" the 468 goes back to what has proven to be the most effective formula, heavy, durable, and stong. The 468 is still the same design, but has a heavier bolt assembly that does not jam as readily as the current M16.

The switch to the 6.8mm also does not require new receivers to be used. The current lowers can be used, as well as the rails, and accessories (a incentive that cuts an enormous amount of cost).

The only thing holding the US military back is the cost of switching to the new ammo.

I have been watching this for a while now (as I have also been looking to get a new Barrett 6.8mm upper for my rifle), and really hope the 6.8mm uppers get the final "go". If this happens, it means that 6.8mm ammo will become readily available, as it is currently almost $1 a round from many of the manufacturers.

WhiteKnight77
07-24-2005, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by jchung:

He is right.



Of course he's right, an operator putting the stuff through it's paces would know what is going on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jchung
07-24-2005, 11:03 AM
@WK

He should, but I really don't know him from adam, so only know what he has posted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WhiteKnight77
07-24-2005, 12:19 PM
While I haven't met him personally, other staff at GR.net have (and gotten a tour of 5th SFG at Ft. Cambell). He's legit. If he speaks, he knows from experience. He's a cool guy.

jchung
07-24-2005, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
While I haven't met him personally, other staff at GR.net have (and gotten a tour of 5th SFG at Ft. Cambell). He's legit. If he speaks, he knows from experience. He's a cool guy.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifAlways good to have people who are involved in the real deal here.

Although I have owned and shot many guns, disassembled, built, and even machined my own parts, I still have some questions about some firearms that I have little to no experience with. Perhaps if Hatchet decides to hang around more often, I could pick his brain on some of the guns I don't know much about. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The only thing that really makes me mad is that with all of the regulations on firearms today, I probably will not get a chance to shoot some of the more recent ones that are hitting the market. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Climatik
07-24-2005, 05:24 PM
those are the prototypes for the year 2020 standard weapons for our forces.

CSownage
07-24-2005, 06:48 PM
yeah...M8 gots some big gliches. I read this article and it said that the gun overheats easily, and starts melting the gun, since its made out of plastic...and some other unknown mechanical problem...

CSownage
07-24-2005, 07:17 PM
check out this XCR assault rifle...looks tight...it also uses the 6.8mm bullets
http://www.robarm.com/xcrtm_gallery.htm

WhiteKnight77
07-25-2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by jchung:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
While I haven't met him personally, other staff at GR.net have (and gotten a tour of 5th SFG at Ft. Cambell). He's legit. If he speaks, he knows from experience. He's a cool guy.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifAlways good to have people who are involved in the real deal here.

Although I have owned and shot many guns, disassembled, built, and even machined my own parts, I still have some questions about some firearms that I have little to no experience with. Perhaps if Hatchet decides to hang around more often, I could pick his brain on some of the guns I don't know much about. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The only thing that really makes me mad is that with all of the regulations on firearms today, I probably will not get a chance to shoot some of the more recent ones that are hitting the market. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take a trip to GR.net, there are some really interesting pics and stuff he has posted and talked about there. Someone dug up an old thread about HALO, but was really wanting info on rappelling and fast roping into an LZ (I guess for a mod) and he added his 2 cents even though the thread was over a year old. Check out the Military Forum. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

jchung
07-25-2005, 11:35 AM
@WK

Can you post a link? I keep getting a Greek internet service when I look up GR.net, and a search yields the same results. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

w1ngSh0t
07-25-2005, 11:54 AM
Try clicking on the link in his sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jchung
07-25-2005, 12:04 PM
DUH! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Thanks Wing. I guess this is like me crawling around the floor of a dark room wondering how to turn on the light switch.

jchung
07-25-2005, 12:36 PM
Interesting site, but the forums seem kind of dead.

w1ngSh0t
07-25-2005, 01:18 PM
That's because they are a bunch of PC Ghost freaks and Ubi screwed them out of GR2 ...

WhiteKnight77
07-25-2005, 03:16 PM
The forums aren't dead. While we are a big PC bunch, we do have our share of console players including HF. I would venture to say that HF has answered many of the questions ya want to ask him already over in the Military Forum we have.

Matter of fact, we just recently started a dedicated sub-forum just for console games within the last couple of weeks.

Albericht
07-25-2005, 04:40 PM
may I ask a questions ? What are those "rail" that you see on the flat tops of new weapons candidates (like scar). What's they're utility ?

WhiteKnight77
07-25-2005, 05:00 PM
The rails allow for mounting of optics or other attachments to allow for user preference and customization.

Thunderpants1
07-25-2005, 08:14 PM
So the XM8 has gone the way of the OICW, then? I was kind of hoping Id get to fire one. But if it breaks, then I dont want it. As for the new 6.8 caliber bullet, I dont see why we should hold back. The army had to switch from 30-06 to 7.62 to 5.56 in the matter of two decades; cost didnt hold them back last time, it shouldnt this time. Just my thoughts, but what would I know, I havent even been a soldier for a year, yet.

jchung
07-26-2005, 07:39 AM
Actually the XM8 was born out of the OICW program. The lower portion of the gun was a purely HK venture. If my memory serves my correctly, the lower portion was first a G36. It is ironic that everything coming out of that project seems doomed to fail.

The 5.56mm round has been in use by NATO for so many decades sometimes it takes a bit of effort to change. Despite the ineffectiveness of the round, look how various branches of the military still use it.

Even though our current philosophy of one shot one kill does not work very well with the 5.56mm round, we still have not switched to a more effective round. Instead we have upped the weight of the 5.56mm ammo to 62grains from the old 55grain. It is still woefully lite.

The 6.8mm SPC rounds that the military would use would be 115grains. Almost double the weight of the current 5.56mm.

Understand that with the current budget crunch that the U.S. is in, it may take some pushing to put this through. Ultimately I beleive it will happen.

Jam_Dammer
07-28-2005, 01:05 PM
Speaking of "Future Weapons"...

hopefully just concept art from:
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/205/reviews/9...050725_screen003.jpg (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/205/reviews/926971_20050725_screen003.jpg)

"Modular Rifle - Caseless"
- Modular bullpup design
- Rugged plastic composite outer shell
- 6.8mm caseless ammunition
- 900 rounds per minute
- 45 lightweight rounds per magazine
- Rail-mounted 40mm grenade launcher

Caseless ammo would be WAY, WAY into the future, especially with the 6.8mm round, which can barely be found today even in brass-cased form.

None of the current best SOCOM offerings (XM8, SPR-468, SCARs) come in bullpup offerings, so I am surprised at its being mentioned.

Plus bullpups, when fired from the left shoulder to shoot around the left side of an object, throw brass and hot gases into your face.

Again, my guess is this is Concept Art, since all the videos seem to be showing XM8s. However, I did not see any cases being ejected in the new GR3/GRAW clips. Anyone else seen brass being ejected in GR3/GRAW? If so, please list the link.

-Jam

jchung
07-28-2005, 01:16 PM
Well if it is using caseless ammo, then a bullpup design would not be a problem, but you are probably right that it is farther into the future than most of us expect it to be.

To my knowledge the caseless design is too prone to degrade when storgage conditions are not optimal, and also the issue of fouling the gun itself.

I have not really looked at any of the latest footage, so I'm not sure about whether there are casings falling on the ground. Good point, I will have to pay attention to that next time I watch footage of this game.

BTW, Jam bad news, STI has stopped production of their 10mm guns. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Jam_Dammer
07-28-2005, 03:48 PM
The only caseless rifles I've ever seen have been in print magazines, and the rifles were all bolt actions - haven't seen any semi/full auto caseless-ammo weapons, which REALLY puts this GRAW weapon into the FAR FUTURE.

I think the bullpup design would still be a problem with hot residual gases, even though (you're right) there would be no cases coming out.

I think there would still be an ejection port that would leak the gases, because there is always the need to have the ability to gain access to the breech area to visually inspect it when verifying its unloaded, or, clear one round that hasn't fired or two rounds stuck in a classic "double feed" situation.

-Jam

(I'm a lover of the 10mm, and the STI news is not as bad as you think - if a 10mm STI is needed, just buy a 40S&W, have chamber reamed to 10mm, replace Ejector with the 45 version to avoid possible contact with the large primer, and waalaa 10mm STI). :-)
*

jchung
07-29-2005, 07:46 AM
@Jam

Cleaver idea with the 10mm "conversion", but I guarantee it won't work. The .45 extractor is for a wider catridge, so there would not be the proper amount of pressure applied, and the breachface also will not match, so you would have to use a .40 S&W slide. Essentially you will have to change the entire upper.

I'm happy with the .45, so although I will miss the opportunity to own a 10mm 2011, I won't shead a tear. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif At least I will try not to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jam_Dammer
07-29-2005, 05:08 PM
the 40S&W and 10mm share exact case head dimensions which translates into the exact same breachface specs - no problem there. Only their case lengths and taper degrees vary.

look carefully...I mentioned the *Ejector* not the extractor. I believe the Ejector on a 40 has a bit more meat on it (thicker) compared to the 45. The 10mm uses a Large pistol primer which would be MORE likely to detonate / out-of-battery-discharge by a 40 Ejector hitting the primer when racking or clearing the gun. The 45 Ejector would be thinner and LESS likely to make contact with the primer.

(I only play gunsmith in the virtual world, not the real world).

I'm sure STI would make one on a "cu$tom" basis.

:-)

-Jam

jchung
07-30-2005, 07:28 AM
Read that again. I for some reason I saw it as extractor. Hey, I'm a very confused person. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I'm sure STI would love to do a cu$$$$tom 10mm.

I shot a 6" Target master this week. Very nice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif That was the first time I shot an STI.

I was checking out some STI hicaps, and I noticed that only the handles are made of polymer. The handles are attached to a steel frame that the slide is mounted on, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif not like a tupperware glock or HK.

I just might have to buy a hicap 2011. They just did not have one with a bull barrel. I also want the slide in hard chrome and trijicon sights so I may have to custom order it.

WA-lo0se
08-02-2005, 12:33 AM
@Jam_Dammer
Then you obviously havent heard of the H&K G11. Caseless ammo began development around 25 years ago, and and in 1988 final troop and technical tests of the G11 caseless ammunition rifle were carried out by the West German Army.
so as you can see,people who think caseless ammo is "to futureistic" needs to brush up on there gun history.

@CSownage
You cant be serious...The xm8 melts, becouse its made out of plastic... Using plastic in guns is nothing new, The glock is entire extirior is made out of plastic, the m16 has some plastic parts, and im sure that there are plenty of other guns that are made out of plastic. So you actually think that the military would even consider testing a gun that would melt in heat? And the plastic they use is not that kind of cheep plastic that 99 cent toys are made of.Its space age matirials, the advantages using "plastic" in guns makes it lighter, more durable, and its extirior wont heat up as esially in the sun.

Agent Green
08-02-2005, 05:15 AM
Caseless ammunition has been around for about sixty years. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Nazi Germany was looking for a way for assassins to leave no trace of a shot.

jchung
08-02-2005, 07:59 AM
@WA-loOse and Agent Green

Lasers have been around for decades to, but you don't see our soldiers carrying them either.

The facts are that caseless ammo degrades quickly when not stored properly in a controlled environment, and when sealed to last longer in storgage there are issues of fouling the firearm. Caseless ammo is still an item that will require much more testing and development. Yes there are working samples, and they have been around, but would you trust your ammo to survive the harsh environment of a humid jungle?

Also as far as the issue of the XM8 goes, it does melt down. The XM8 utilizes more polymer than most any other firearm made today, and perhaps too much.

As far as the Glock goes, have you ever owned one? I have had three Glocks now, and the useage of polymer is not as extensive as you would think. The slide is entirely metal, as well as the barrel, and it locks into a stainless steal base that sits in the polymer frame (Glock calls this the lock in block). The frame also has stainless steel inserts that the slide moves along, and don't forget that except for the model 18 Glock pistols are semiauto and don't generate the heat that an AR will.

The 18 is a fullauto, but it shoots a pistol round, so it does not even come close to comparing to a rifle shooting a necked down high power round with a long case that has a significantly larger amount of charge in it.

Try shooting 5 mags straight through an MP5, then try shooting 5 mags straight through an HK53. Same gun, but the MP5 shoots a 9mm, and the HK53 shoots a 5.56mm. The HK53 gets much hotter as the higher charge and faster velocity of the rifle round quickly overheats the gun.

The same principle applies to a Colt M16 vs the Colt 9MM SMG. Same gun, but the 9mm can go all day without overheating.

Don't beleive everything you read. Unless you have actually tried some of this stuff yourself, you are only going based on other people's opinions.

clitcomm4
08-24-2006, 07:48 PM
just so yall know, the weapon is in testing phase and does exist. caseless ammunition has already overcome the obstacles y'all are talkin about.

www.metalstorm.com (http://www.metalstorm.com)

Laterz,

Jermtheory
08-24-2006, 08:44 PM
how deep did you have to dig for this thread?


and this......


quote:
Quote from the 1911 forum:
"all manner of girlie men, cross dressers, and bathhouse queens shoot the 9mm round"

...sounds like someone trying to "overcompensate" for something.with proper ammo you can get a 93% one shot stop rate[maybe better these days].combined with weight/size/recoil and magazine capacity makes the 9mm an excellent round imo....obviously not with ball ammo though.