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View Full Version : Axis/Allied fighter & fighterbomber selection ingame/real life



XyZspineZyX
03-31-2006, 09:35 PM
I am wondering, during WW2 when squadrons were selected for missions, was the type of plane considered for the mission requirements? my logic says yes, (but war is ilogical) The reason I ask is sometimes when flying lets say RAF in BOE, you are flying in a SpitfireIXe & you are assigned a ground attack mission, sometimes it appears your flight is escorted by Tempests or US P47s. I have always percieved the Spitfire to be an airsuperiority fighter & Tempests & P47s to be multirole fighters.
The same has occured when flying Luftwaffe missions, occasionaly if flying a BF109G14 you would be assigned a Jabo mission & it would appear you would have ME110s flying escorts. In real life was it a case of having the "correct resources" to apply to a mission type or was it the case of orders & do the mission with what equipment available. I have read that during the bomber offensive over Germany that the FW190As were assigned the bomber destoyer role while the BF109Gs flew top cover & intercepted the allied escorts is this accurate?

VW-IceFire
03-31-2006, 09:57 PM
The DGEN's are always a bit whacky when you get these sorts of assignments.

Spitfires did carry out ground attack roles. Mostly from September '44 and onwards there were large numbers of 2nd TAF (Tactical Air Force) squadrons with a combination of Spitfire IX and newer XVI's (which were IX models with a Merlin 266 engine made by Packard in the US). The XVI's and some IX's were modified to carry rockets, have a longer range with an extra fuel tank (rare but happened), and some XVI's had bubble canopies like the XIV.

Prior to that the Spitfire squadrons, even ones normally on air superiority ("Rhubarb" operations) duty such as RCAF 401 squadron were fitted with bombs and frequently were sent to dive bomb V-1 launch sites (called 'No Ball' for non-ballistic).

P-47s were not likely to have escorted Spitfires although it was somewhat common for them to encroach on each others airspace...particularly after the Normandy invasion there are scores of cases where Mustangs, Lightnings, and Thunderbolts were in the same areas as Spitfires. There are also quite a few friendly fire incidents caused...

Tempests almost never flew escort for anything. Most Tempests were in anti-V1 operations for April to September 1944 and then following that deployed to the continent and in full force by December 1944 at which time they undertook air superiority missions. Ground attack role was kept for the Typhoon squadrons...Tempests did do ground attacks and quite often attacked targets of opportunity but they were not often given a specific ground duty. Thunderbolts on the other hand were the bread and butter of the 9th Air Force and were often doing ground attacks.

And yes FW190s were usually the ones to make attacks on the bomber stream while 109s flew higher and attacked the escorts. Not to say that 109s didn't make runs on the bomber stream either...but that was a tactic. The 109s higher altitude performance making it more idea for the fighter-cover role than the 190 which did struggle a bit at altitude.

I cannot see 110s escorting anything. Should really be the other way around...

On the Eastern Front most FW190 squadrons were jabo or fighter-bomber units. The 109s were the escort fighters.

CUJO_1970
04-01-2006, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by dasriech:
I have read that during the bomber offensive over Germany that the FW190As were assigned the bomber destoyer role while the BF109Gs flew top cover & intercepted the allied escorts is this accurate?



This was a very rare occurance.

In fact, it was pretty much unheard of for a western front geshwader like JG26 or JG2. For example - in JG26 the FW190 equipped I and II gruppe usually operated in different areas and on different missions than the 109 equipped III gruppe.

In _Reich Defense_ units, it occured for the heavily armed and armored Sturmbock 190, but not on every mission.

And the orders from above for the most part were to focus attack only on the bombers - not allied fighters - and this applied to 109 gruppen as well.

Beaufort-RAF
04-01-2006, 08:15 AM
Tempests almost never flew escort for anything.

They must have done quite a few times though.

I've seen references of them escorting Beaus, Mitchells, even Bomber Command heavies post Normandy.

VW-IceFire
04-01-2006, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Beaufort-RAF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Tempests almost never flew escort for anything.

They must have done quite a few times though.

I've seen references of them escorting Beaus, Mitchells, even Bomber Command heavies post Normandy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VW-IceFire
04-01-2006, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Beaufort-RAF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Tempests almost never flew escort for anything.

They must have done quite a few times though.

I've seen references of them escorting Beaus, Mitchells, even Bomber Command heavies post Normandy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mmm I haven't heard much of that. I have two of the three volumes of the books on the 2nd TAF that came out in the last year and there are no mentions of this in any of the operational histories. Mind from April to September the Tempests were all temporarily on loan to the ADGB. Any idea which squadrons or wings were involved in those escorts?

Beaufort-RAF
04-01-2006, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beaufort-RAF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Tempests almost never flew escort for anything.

They must have done quite a few times though.

I've seen references of them escorting Beaus, Mitchells, even Bomber Command heavies post Normandy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mmm I haven't heard much of that. I have two of the three volumes of the books on the 2nd TAF that came out in the last year and there are no mentions of this in any of the operational histories. Mind from April to September the Tempests were all temporarily on loan to the ADGB. Any idea which squadrons or wings were involved in those escorts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a few tit bits.

3 Sq escorting Beaus on D-Day.

A photo of Tempests escorting Mitchells on a raid.

Regarding the heavies, that's from 'Typhoon & Tempest at War'. (co authored by Roland Beamont)

Referring to the period before they moved to the continent, it says they used long range tanks to escort Halibags & Lancs as far as their fuel reserves would allow.

WTE_Galway
04-02-2006, 11:52 PM
Actually there was a well known RAAF "strike" later in the war by Australian pilots including 28 kill ace Arthur Caldwell concerning a claimed misuse of the spitfires.

Basically the aleegation was Australian Spitfire VIII's (unsuited to ground attack) were sent into high flak ground attack missions instead of dedicated US ground attack planes meant for the job. The colonials did not like it.

WOLFMondo
04-03-2006, 01:33 AM
Spitfires were commonly used at that point for ground attack. The RAF had thousands of them at there disposal to do so. By late 1944 the Spitfire IX probably clocked up more ground attack sorties than any other RAF aircraft, probably on a level with P47's for sheer number of sorties. They were never ideal for the task but numbers is what was important at that stage. Even XIV's were sometimes put into ground attack rather than high altitude fighter sweeps which was there prefered roll.