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VonGrantoven
10-18-2007, 03:07 AM
Which holds the greatest influence in Uberdom?

Are the lords of the servers the ones with sharpe eyes and lightning reactions, or the old dogs who have developed the touch over years of scrapping?
Or are both elements essential to rack up a kill tally that is the envy of all?

Deadmeat313
10-18-2007, 03:28 AM
I think experience is the more important. A good pilot will generally be able to control the situation in such a way that his reflexes are rarely tested.

Note: I am not such a pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

T.

VonGrantoven
10-18-2007, 06:45 AM
I would tend to agree.
This is also exactly the answer I am hoping for.
Experience you can gain with time, but reflexes are more likely to deteriorate with age.

However, I am sure that reflexes must play a major part in the equation, specifically with gunnery.
If I slow the game to half (or even quarter) speed, my kill efficiency skyrockets. I have more time to evaluate the speed and attitude off the target and place the pipper where it needs to to be deflection-wise.
This is even more evident in scissors fights, when snapping of those split second bursts into the engine and 'pit.

Currently I dont have a huge amount of experience, and I would say I have no more than average reflexes.
In short, I miss far more than I hit, even when I am decently saddled up.

My question is:
Are scissoring snapshots and rapid deflection decisions something you can ever master through just experience?
Or are average reflexed humans doomed to ballistic mediocrity?

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-18-2007, 08:01 AM
Experience Vs Reflexes

Situational Awareness ftw!!1

Of course that can come with experience.

stathem
10-18-2007, 08:50 AM
I would say with experience comes an ability to sustain a good level of competence; but reflexes (in terms of ability to shoot) come with practise and the number of hours you can spend flying.

In my own experience, I usually only get to fly online very rarely these days. Often I may have to spend a month or more without getting on a server. When I get chance to spend a couple of hours online, I'm nervous that I won't be able to compete; the ˜muscle memory' for gunnery and general plane control goes.

However, I find if I fly ˜safety first', using SA experience, set a hard deck (I generally fly Tempest) and don't try to Dogfight, then I can usually get by without being too embarrassed. AS TB indicates, the one thing you don't lose is experience in SA.

Ernst_Rohr
10-18-2007, 08:54 AM
Experience, hands down.

You can be a total killer from a twitch monkey reflex standpoint, but an old slow experience pilot is going to smoke you before you can even twitch.

Zoom2136
10-18-2007, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by VonGrantoven:
Which holds the greatest influence in Uberdom?

Are the lords of the servers the ones with sharpe eyes and lightning reactions, or the old dogs who have developed the touch over years of scrapping?
Or are both elements essential to rack up a kill tally that is the envy of all?

What is best --- natural aptitudes....

BTW natural aptitude means that one grasp instantly what others needs a long time to master (i.e. energy management, positionning, etc.).... also natural aptitude includes reflexes... good eye sight... etc... so its more of a complete package...

No amount of experience will beat that....

So combine experience with natural apts.... well...

So guys give it up... if you s.u.c.k. the big one after years of flying this sims... you will probably never get better....

So some of these guys will have to keep saying My ride IS P.O.R.K.E.D.... his plane is nurfed... to justify their short comings... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-18-2007, 09:16 AM
Always experience.

Reflexes are great, but can be a useless burden without experience behind it.

Speeding about knee-jerk reacting may look coold at first, but is no good if you wear youself out mid-battle or shoot the wrong guy or dive into a scrap all by youself, spraying and praying, but missing everything or overdoing your plane until it breaks, just to be wiped out.

Experience knows when to pounce, when to act and when not to do anything. Experience will make sure his ride is at its optimum efficency saving him time and energy needed elsewhere. Experience might take longer to get the solution, but when he does, the enemy will not survive.

Reflexes: Many shots, many misses.

Experience: 1 shot, 1 kill (or close to that).

A super-fast reflex fighter is NO match for an experienced slower fighter. Of course, have reflexes AND experience and you`re laughing!

PF_Coastie
10-18-2007, 09:39 AM
I agree with Zoom. Except I would call it "instincts".

Some people just have a natural born way of being able to do things with much less effort than others.

Insticts along with experience can not be touched IMHO.

JtD
10-18-2007, 11:03 AM
What some can do with very little experience is to quickly move the aircraft the way they want and to shoot very accurately. This is very important, too. Imho, a person with a good eye-hand coordination and some time behind the stick can give a very seasoned veteran with not so good flying and shooting a very hard time.

Divine-Wind
10-18-2007, 11:11 AM
I'd say 3 parts experience and 1 part reflex. You can be smarter than Orville Wright when it comes to flying but if you can't dodge the wing that just got ripped off your target all the experience in the world won't help you.

BrotherVoodoo
10-18-2007, 12:13 PM
I agree with Zoom. Except I would call it "instincts".

I call it "the force". A combination of instinct and training with a dash of reflex.

T_O_A_D
10-18-2007, 03:47 PM
Experience is morethe key.

Just the otherday I was 1vs1 against one of the best young sticks I know, and won, overhandedly.

I actually feel for his 1 1/2 years in the game he is actually a better pilot than I was with that expereince, and he if given the upper hand can beat most people if he can keep the upper hand.

But lack of expereince allows him to loose the upper hand, and or not actually realise he has it.

After the fight I sent him my track and we both replayed it from the 5 second mark insync with each other.

I let him critic it himself first, he pointed out his own mistakes and misjudgments, flawlessly. and stated during the fight he could not see all that he had done, let alone realise how much his aircraft outclassed mine.

Then of course I gave hime my thoughts as we reviewd it again insync.

I do this with alot of pilots new, and old. I feel its the duty of the better pilot to pass along information to his lower ability friends and wingman. If not I will consider you as a self centered snob, and I won't spend much time if any with you, short a chance to smoke your tail. Of course I only do this for the willing, in hopes that one day they will save my six, and or even get better than me and return the favor and lesson me.

SeaFireLIV
10-18-2007, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:


I do this with alot of pilots new, and old. I feel its the duty of the better pilot to pass along information to his lower ability friends and wingman. If not I will consider you as a self centered snob, and I won't spend much time if any with you, short a chance to smoke your tail. Of course I only do this for the willing, in hopes that one day they will save my six, and or even get better than me and return the favor and lesson me.

Pretty good view. I`d probably be a Training Officer myself cos I like helping newbies too, but I`m not very good at translating actual combat techniques into words online. half the stuff I do I don`t even think about any more...

Airmail109
10-18-2007, 04:20 PM
There are two types of fighter pilots. Those with natural flair and those who become good through experience.

Take The Kid Hofer for example:

"Nearly always it was the inexperienced pilots, fresh from the inadequate training in the states, whom we just didn't have the time to whip up into shape before they went out and got shot down.

Kid Hofer was the exception. If asked, the Kid who had the superstitions common to most fighter pilots, would have attributed his luck to his beloved snake ring on the third finger of his throttle hand, and his faithful blue football sweater with the lurid "78" on the front which he always wore on combat missions.

Yet those of us who watched his performance realized that this was one of those rare natural pilots, whos enthusiastic aggressive brilliant flying ability, and a certain unique flair combined to make them stand out from the rest of us, who over a long career flew the missions, or led our squadrons as best we could, and in the process, if we survived, inevitably built up our scores. But they were the loners who blazed their brief trail through the skies like a shooting star." - Tumult in the Clouds, James Goodson

Ralph "The Kid" Hofer, is my childhood hero btw

He shot down a 190 on his first mission

"The kid continued his Happy-go-Lucky meteroic career. Whenever there was a spontaneous breach of radio silence it was the Kid, as on the first long mission to Munich, just as we go over the target, and could see the mountains to the south, the tense silence was broken by a gleeful voice: "Gee ain't the Alps pretty!?" Don Blakslee didnt need to ask who it was. "God damnit, Hofer, shut up!" But also the Kid was among those who usually reported victories, when asked how he did it, he would laugh and show his snake rings. "Im one of the lucky ones" he would say.

I tried to draw him into discussions on tactics, methods of attack, strategy, deflection shooting, and all the tricks of the trade that I was constantly discussing with others, and particularly with the great technical and strategic perfectionists. "Millie" Millikan and "Bee" Beeson. The Kid would just laugh and say "Hell, If I ever worried about the technical stuff Id never shoot anything down. I just go get em. I don't aim my guns I aim myself at them" And I think he meant it sincerely. WHat came to us after many years of training, came to guys like Hofer naturally and intuitively"

The Kid went on to score 27 kills in several months before being shot down and killed over eastern europe.

VW-IceFire
10-18-2007, 04:30 PM
Obviously having both is the best possible combination. With both experience and reflexes you become a pretty deadly opponent. But I would say that experience can make up for reflexes while reflexes simply cannot make up for experience. It may be true for first person shooters but not for the relatively realistic air combat games like this.

You can be pretty slow at this game and still do well. There is a limit to how bad your reflexes are but within reason you can definitely make up the difference.

Airmail109
10-18-2007, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Obviously having both is the best possible combination. With both experience and reflexes you become a pretty deadly opponent. But I would say that experience can make up for reflexes while reflexes simply cannot make up for experience. It may be true for first person shooters but not for the relatively realistic air combat games like this.

You can be pretty slow at this game and still do well. There is a limit to how bad your reflexes are but within reason you can definitely make up the difference.

If your not aggressive and fast thinking online your dead meat lol. Their are only a few people I trust to cover my 6 online.

Being a natural pilot is not all about reflexes, things like Situational Awareness just COMES to some people. They don't need expirence to develop it. Theyre just quick witted and clever.

Yes experience is the "rule" but the real good pilots are the exception to that.

VonGrantoven
10-18-2007, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
...I feel its the duty of the better pilot to pass along information to his lower ability friends and wingman...
That's the spirit! I have definitely learned more from getting burned and being shown why, than by doing the burning myself.


Originally posted by Divine-Wind:
I'd say 3 parts experience and 1 part reflex. You can be smarter than Orville Wright when it comes to flying but if you can't dodge the wing that just got ripped off your target all the experience in the world won't help you.
3-1 in favor of experience.
Sounds like good odds to me, especially since it seems that a large percentage of those playing are over 30 (myself included).
Everyone go along with this ratio?

MB_Avro_UK
10-18-2007, 05:17 PM
Hi all,

If you have to rely on reflexes you have got yourself into a bad situation.

The best USA fighter pilots in the Vietnam war were well into their 40s.

And what is the difference in reflex time between a 20 year old and a 40 year old?

Experience and teamwork is the answer IMHO.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

LEXX_Luthor
10-18-2007, 05:36 PM
Air combat, or even just flying, requires learning a complete new set of physical reflexes, so...

Experience = high reflexes

One common example of a hard learned reflex is using rudder instead of aileron after stall.

Jaws2002
10-18-2007, 06:25 PM
Experience is clearly the winner here.
With enough experience you can see and anticipate things before they happen.
Like the scisors exemple in the original post. With enough experience you'll make the other guy pass through your gunsight at certain moment and be ready for it, not react quick when he's in your gunsight.
There are naturals out there but this game is way too technical and complex to be controlled by reflexes alone.
You need to learn things and situations just like you need to learn your planes abilities.
In a fast close combat is more important to know when to look where , then it is to look fast in a many random random directions.
Gunnery and energy management are two things that you have to learn. There are many types of planes and many types of guns in this game and you have to adapt when you switch from one to another.

LEXX_Luthor
10-18-2007, 07:32 PM
Jaws::
In a fast close combat is more important to know when to look where, then it is to look fast in a many random random directions.
I'd say that's an air combat specific physical reflex learned through experience.

Experience = fast reflexes

Remember, the experienced Aces wrote that they, like Yoda, don't "think" but "do," when they perform their art. Reflex.

buzzsaw1939
10-18-2007, 08:25 PM
LEXX.. I'll confirm that!

Airmail109
10-19-2007, 02:34 AM
No one seems to have taken any notice that a real life ace James Goodson basically said no matter how experienced you were, there were some newbie but gifted pilots that were better than you.

LEBillfish
10-19-2007, 07:19 AM
Experience or reflex.....Well, personally I believe a good fighter pilot would have to have "both"....

Quite frankly, few in this world could ever be fighter pilots of the era IMLTHO. Fewer still long lived, and even fewer aces. To get the experience entails time fighting others, and until you have that experience you'd have to have some instinctual abilities that helps you rise above all the others simply shoved into a plane. It would also most likely take someone who is NOT like we imagine most to be, on the verge of no control, a Maverick...Yet instead someone who listens intently and learns.

So IMLTHO it would take reflex, aggressiveness, using fear as a motivator instead of a cripler, attentiveness as well as some natural abilities few only are born with.......Those would get you to where you had experience.

I've met a few r/l fighter pilots that flew sometime from the 50's till perhaps late 90's so had diverse experiences. Everyone of them though most often quiet, soft spoken and seemingly placid none the less had an air about them not like we see in the movies or some of our own wannabe's here try and personify. They all had this edginess to them, as though simply bored with everything, and underlying that a predators aura.........Like a well fed Tiger looking over a pastural scene of deer...You could just tell given the opportunity, somewhere down deep they were born to be the apex predator and knew it...........Yet never gave it a second thought.


Think of your time flying this sim, and I mean from moment one.....Your first death marked the end of your virtual reality.....Fighter pilots don't get that second chance.

Airmail109
10-19-2007, 08:19 AM
That "edginess" and "bored with everything" describes the personalities of a lot of aces.

I get the feeling a lot of what makes an Ace is psychology, a lot of them just didn't give a damn or didn't fear death which allowed them to be aggressive and operate when all others were losing their heads.

Those that cling to the notion that they might survive a large full scale war are the ones who more often than not actually get killed because they lose their heads. Those that manage to accept theyre already dead to me, it seems were able to operate better and therefore be able to survive more easily.

Being a "maverick" quite often shows emotional instability, resulting in one losing their head at a critical moment....

Its always the quiet ones..

buzzsaw1939
10-19-2007, 09:36 AM
Let me add a few more!

Intuitive spatial orientation.

Instantaneous situational assessment.

you feel the air not the plane.

You think miles ahead of you.

When your in trouble, your too busy reacting to be kissing your butt good by!

If and when you get back, your legs shake so bad you have to sit in the plane for a few moments, thats when the fear hits.

If you were a hunter, you normally will be better at instinctive lead shooting.

The quietness comes from being observant in life, and a little less noisy about your self, or your self confidence.

Just a few!

Hrannar
10-19-2007, 02:12 PM
Experience + teamwork = winner

Simple equation, but it always works http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Korolov1986
10-19-2007, 02:57 PM
I've heard the description of flying as being:

"You start out with a empty bag of experience and a full bag of luck. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck runs out."

mynameisroland
10-19-2007, 05:28 PM
Experience rules

In most engagements and usual plane match ups an experienced player has a good idea of how the engagement will progress. After one or two manuvers you should be able to know whether the guy you are fighting is gaining the upper hand or blowing his advantage.

One great guage for this is imagine you are being attacked by a bandit with a slight altitude advantage. The experienced pilot knows the enemies aircraft performance and knows their own planes performance. You know exactly whats required to level your opponents energy advantage and to place him on the defensive or you know what evasive manuvers will give you the best chance of avoiding getting killed until you can escape or help arrives.

For a new pilot relying on reflexes alone in this type of scenario there is only so much you can do against a smarter more patient opponent who knows how to control the fight.