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SithSpeeder
05-23-2006, 07:23 AM
Well, it seems even the "pros" have collisions...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/23/greece.crash/index.html

(makes me feel a little better about my two collisions last night http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

The only thing is when one or both of them screw up, somebody's not coming home http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

* _54th_Speeder *

Jaws2002
05-23-2006, 07:36 AM
This kind of "dogfights" hapen between Grece and Turkey for many many years. Is like a sport. Many pilots sufered the same fate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 07:51 AM
also typical between recon planes of US and China

http://www.taiwandc.org/latimes-2001-01.htm

The Chinese lost a too brave fighter pilot this way.

SithSpeeder
05-23-2006, 10:41 AM
too brave

I disagree with your characterization--this was no "dogfight" between equals or even near equals. The F-8 is four times as fast and about 30% the weight of the EP-3. We won't even get in to maneuverability. It'd be like following an unarmed TB-3 with an La-7.

Although more than likely at least some of the blame falls on the EP-3 pilot, I believe that F-8 pilot was an idiot.

And this has nothing to do with nationality.

* _54th_Speeder *

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 11:30 AM
in my dictionary "too brave" = "idiot" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

they regularly flew in front of the recon planes, in order to inject the hot exhausts from the jet engine into the engine of recon plane (reducing its efficiency, asymmetric thrusts etc.)

but this was even more stupid

AVG_WarHawk
05-23-2006, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
also typical between recon planes of US and China

The Chinese lost a too brave fighter pilot this way.

I recall this incident, the Chinese pilot had been witnessed flying foolishly close on several occasions prior to the incident which took his life.

PlaneEater
05-23-2006, 11:55 AM
"We have old pilots, and we have bold pilots, but we have no old, bold pilots."

--Col. Polifka, 3rd Photorecon Group, 12th Airforce

SithSpeeder
05-23-2006, 12:52 PM
in my dictionary "too brave" = "idiot" Big Grin Ah...understood. I have found that the written word is not always the best medium for passing sarcasm (there's something about the tone of voice and the rolling of the eyes that gets lost).

So, what PlaneEater says http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

* _54th_Speeder *

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 03:06 PM
yes, that's the saying I was thinking of http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

by the way, the recon plane also got damaged, and they soon realized that their emergency landing will be on... a Chinese coastal military airbase. So a frantic destruction took place aboard the aircraft, to break all the evesdropping devices to small pieces, burning codes, and maybe even eating the most important pieces.... must have been quite exciting.

the crew was let go by the Chinese, but the plane remained in their custody, despite requests from the US to return it

Jatro13th
05-23-2006, 03:12 PM
Unfortunately this is everyday practice...

Check this and you will understand what these guys (both Turks and Greeks) are sent up to do everyday. (couldn't find a video of a Turkish a/c locking on a Greek one).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJ4CzUi9a8&search=HELLENIC%20AIR%20FORCE

I think that calling someone too brave or too stupid under these circumstances is a bit harsh guys... what would you do if you were in their shoes?

Let the people who have given their lives in the chessboard of political greed rest in peace...

Blottogg
05-23-2006, 03:46 PM
When flying between Ramstein and Incirlik, we gave the Aegean a WIDE berth for just this reason. These guys fly armed, while we ferried jets with nothing more offensive than a travel pod. My laundry (even my BO heavy gym clothes) wouldn't cut it against a Sidewinder shot by a Turk thinking I'm a Greek, or a Greek thinking I'm a Turk. Of course the radar coverage in that neck of the woods is terrible, and there was every chance they'd never see us anyway.

Unfortunately, this kind of thing has gone on for decades, with several fatalities on both sides.

mrsiCkstar
05-23-2006, 04:09 PM
Unfortunately this is everyday practice...

Check this and you will understand what these guys (both Turks and Greeks) are sent up to do everyday. (couldn't find a video of a Turkish a/c locking on a Greek one).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJ4CzUi9a8&search=HELLENIC%20AIR%20FORCE

I think that calling someone too brave or too stupid under these circumstances is a bit harsh guys... what would you do if you were in their shoes?

Let the people who have given their lives in the chessboard of political greed rest in peace...

what's the story with that video? did he launch? do you know?

unfortunately I don't understand Greek so someone has to tell me what the pilot was saying ...intense footage though.

Aguila_Azteca
05-23-2006, 04:46 PM
the video is a mock dogfight ... pilots use this kind of activity for training..... you normaly will have this over bases so on.......

what makes it so interesting of this video... is that the pilots mock fighting are indeed doing it against pilots from a hostile country that they are likely to go to war some time in the future... no they did not fire the missile because they are not at war... yet....

this kind of activity is benefical for both countrys... as you can see what tactics the enemy will use in real combat... the quality of their equipment... so on....

it is like if the teams that go to the superball... (or bowl what ever....) play alot of practice games before the official one

StG2_Schlachter
05-23-2006, 05:00 PM
The missile is hot and locks onto the Turkish F-16. The pilot just does not push the button.
Not really a mock dogfight.

Viper2005_
05-23-2006, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
The missile is hot and locks onto the Turkish F-16. The pilot just does not push the button.
Not really a mock dogfight.

He was well setup for a guns kill too. If I were the chap in the other F-16 I'd be seriously considering an alternative career lest things hot up...

mrsiCkstar
05-23-2006, 06:46 PM
I just realized what makes that footage so intense... it's the sound of the pilots breathing under the G forces... I think having that in a sim would get atleast my adrenaline pumping even more in the middle of an intense dogfight.

would be a great addition to the blackouts and redouts in my opinion.

ColoradoBBQ
05-23-2006, 07:46 PM
Actually, if you look on the bottom of the left altitude ladder, you'll see the word SIM. The pilot may have a dummy missile equipped and sent back a message to command that he simulated an air kill against the Turkish pilot.

james_ander
05-23-2006, 07:51 PM
Wow, nice footage.

He sure had a good bead on the other jet and kept his nose on him for an eternity. The other pilot had to know he was beat and slunk home with his tail between his legs.

Hard to believe that no one has ever let a hot one go.

james_ander
05-23-2006, 07:59 PM
I forget all my radar lingo. It looked like he had a radar lock using vertical scan (whatever variation of boresight mode that sends the radar in a straight line up and down off the nose of the jet) as well as a missle lock.

Anyway, it was an undeniable lock. Thanks for that great footage.

berg417448
05-23-2006, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by james_ander:


Hard to believe that no one has ever let a hot one go.



Apparently they have:

http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/victories-greece-post_ww2.html

Jatro13th
05-24-2006, 12:47 AM
It says: \
-I'm scissoring and I'm behind him. George, inform them, cause I have no radiotelecommunication. You?
-I'm one mile away in the spot...
-I'm two miles away and I've got one. George I have tally, have you got the other one?
-Affirmative.
-Right wing and aft I've got a little trouble.
-I can see you also.
-Ok he's in Fox3. He's a long time kill. He's trying to disengage. George tell them that we continue engagement.

Aguila_Azteca
05-25-2006, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
The missile is hot and locks onto the Turkish F-16. The pilot just does not push the button.
Not really a mock dogfight.

Mock dog fight.... period... if it wasnt there would be greek and turkish pilots floating all over the ocean by now...

LStarosta
05-25-2006, 07:44 PM
Have you n00bs ever seen "Top Gun"?


"Do not fire until fired upon!"

Orion_GR
05-27-2006, 12:27 PM
This is the video with english subtitles.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_67QZDwUlZ4

This one is without any cut in pilot voice.

the video is real you can find it in HAF website also (voice cut).

http://www.haf.gr/en/media/default.asp

One of our pilots is dead, and this is not a game, this hapent every day over the Aigean sea and is not funy when the Turks comming everyday over to Greece with arming fighters, specialy when he have internal problems like now.

The Turkish aircrafts comming in close formation and take a pictures from area of Crete (S300 facilities), is not international airspace there is Greek.

Our pilot have a Family with 2 childrens.

The Top Gun is a stupid movie but is a great scool in USA. In Greece we have the Top Gun every day as you see.

mazexx
05-27-2006, 01:25 PM
Well, hearing this I remember an interesting story as Sweden used to do mock fights like this with the Soviet union during the whole cold war... In the 1950:ies a swedish Catalina and a DC-3 where shot down by Mig-15's but otherwise it was "just a game with loaded guns".

A friend was flying his first "sharp" mission in an SH-37 Viggen (the naval recon version). The "milk run" in the late 80:ies was to approach the Baltic countries (then a part of the Soviet Union) low and then pull up and turn back home just at the territorial border. This was his first real mission and he had a JA-37 with him for protection (the fighter version of the Viggen). This was the days when the Mig-29 had just been seen at some airshow in Finland and eveyone was talking about how good it really was. The older Migs that they used to meet where mostly inferior to the Viggen in turning performance etc so it had not been a problem up until then. When they approached the border they saw Soviet interceptors on the radar that had scrabled to meet them. The thing this time was that it was 6 Mig-29's... They started a mock dogfight like the ones described in the article. The Viggens pulled all they could and managed to get a lock on the Migs, that was still flying in a tight formation. My friend thought that "wow, they are not so good anyway!". Then they suddenly they just saw the overside of them as they pulled all the alpha they could. After some seconds they where in the opposite position with the 6 migs on their tails. The more experienced pilot in the JA-37 told him to just ignore them and fly home. The Mig's kept their locks on them and followed them home to the swedish territorial border and then did a split to say good bye http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Now we have the JAS-39 Gripens that would be more suited against the Mig-29 but back then it was no fun...

Another story from those days regarding mock fights is also interesting. As far as I have heard the only plane in the world that has managed to get a real lock on an SR-71 is the JA-37 Viggen. The SR-71's used to fly their milk run in the baltic sea region too and their route was the same most of the times. Knowing this a JA-37 lit its afterburners and went vertical just at the point where the SR-71 was making it's turn home, and managed to get a lock on him. The day after they received a telegram from the USAF with a congratulation as we where the first airforce in the world to lock on to an SR-71 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Drifting away a bit from the topic now but talking about mock fights with real missiles this fits, as the JA-37 sure had armed missiles, as well as the Mig's...

/Mazex

rnzoli
05-27-2006, 01:26 PM
having had both Turkish and Greek colleagues and friends, this kind of conflict really saddens me

I was hoping for an improvement when Greeks were trying to help the Turks when the big earthquake struck some years ago Turkey

but it looks like that the blood-soaked history just wont go away and there are always people grabbing historical excuses for wasting more lives even today

Bremspropeller
05-27-2006, 02:07 PM
SIM in the HUD does not mean that he has locked him with a dummy missile:

The weapon master-switch has three positions:

ARM
SAFE
SIM

(In this particular order)

So, he could have tracked the other guy with a hot missile, but with "cold" buttuns on the stick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

joeap
05-27-2006, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Aguila_Azteca:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
The missile is hot and locks onto the Turkish F-16. The pilot just does not push the button.
Not really a mock dogfight.

Mock dog fight.... period... if it wasnt there would be greek and turkish pilots floating all over the ocean by now... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the other comments...real just don't press the button. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think a no fly zone should be established over this area...no miltary planes (well except SAR helicopters and transports) from either side.

You guys know both are NATO allies??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Jatro13th
05-27-2006, 03:37 PM
You see, a no fly zone is impossible for the Greek side to accept. Greece uses its borders according to the Lausanne treaty. If Greece accepts a no fly airspace over there, it is as if Greece accepts that the Lausanne treaty is disputable, and then, a whole new can of worms is opened...

Unfortunately, an earthquake is not enough to bring together two governments that try to get their hands on subaqueous oil.

But that's enough said about contemporary politics.

Maj_Solo
05-27-2006, 05:30 PM
One Viggen managed through maneuvering to cause a Mig-23 or Mig-21 to crash into the sea.

Blottogg
05-27-2006, 10:37 PM
Bremspropeller is right, the "SIM" indicates the Master Arm switch postion, not the weapons loadout. Since training missiles use the same seeker head (who said "head" !?!) as the live rounds (minus the motor, warhead and fuze), you can't tell from the HUD if he's carrying live or not, though barring a malfunction, nothing is coming off the jet in "SIM", live round or not.

Jatro13th's translation (thanks for that, BTW) leads me to believe this was another unbriefed encounter, with the potential for any mistake to get ugly. The missile DLZ (Designated Launch Zone) shows the Turk to be inside min range for a missile shot by the Greek, though there are at least a couple of opportunities for a snap/tracking gun shot (gotta love the old SS/LCOS gunsight I grew up with, intead of the newer EEGS.) Wallowing around at 180 kts isn't a really good BFM technique for the Greek pilot, nor is plugging in the blower and extending out into the heart of the missile envelope like the Turk does, though depending on the situation, he may not have had much choice.

I had both a Greek and a Turk instructor in my T-38 flight at UPT (I went to Euro-NATO), and both were good instructors who apparently got along. I knew about the history of bad blood between the two countries though (even as an ignorant 2Lt), and couldn't help but wonder what would happen if they were both in the same flight when we got to the Formation phase of the syllabus.

I don't recommend mock dogfighting with live rounds (or without briefing beforehand, for that matter), since accidents happen. The US Navy flys with live rounds a lot more than we did in the USAF, and there have been accidents between the two services. We had one former RF-4 driver who got the callsign "Squid" after being shot down by an F-14 during an exercise, and an F-15 coming back from an alert station in Alaska shot his leader with a Sidewinder during some impromtu BFM when he "forgot" he was carrying live (the F-15 doesn't have a "SIM" position, just "ARM" and "SAFE".)

I liked the setup in Germany better, where all the NATO buds agreed to a set of engagement rules, allowing unbriefed bounces to be fought safely. Helping the safety thing was not carrying live rounds of course. Sadly, I don't see this as an option over the Aegean for the immediate future.

Bremspropeller
05-28-2006, 04:34 AM
I've heard of those "unbriefed" dogfights over Germany. I've read an article where one pilot claims that pilots would jump each other spontanously almost any time they saw another fighter in the sky, no matter which NATO-country it belonged to.

IMHO this is the best training a pilot could get.

Blottogg
05-28-2006, 06:34 PM
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was good training too, because unlike Cope Thunder or Red Flag exercises, you never knew when or if you'd get bounced, like real life. With rules established and agreed to beforehand (and they were pretty conservative compared to dedicated DACT, where the players all briefed together beforehand) everyone knew what to expect and what the limits were, even if we weren't on the same frequency at the time. Worst case, you just acknowledged with a wing rock that said "Yeah, I see you, but I'm busy doing other stuff now and can't play." Though IIRC, NATO had us aileron roll to kill remove and wing rock to claim a kill, opposite of what we'd done in PACAF...wierd.

Jumping F-4's, Alpha Jets, Tornados, other Vipers, A-10's etc in Low Fly 7 (our usual stomping grounds NW of Munich) on the way to Siegenburg range was great. The Canadians were still at Solligen at the time, so F/A-18's (I guess they called them CF-118's though) would play, too.

Jatro13th
05-28-2006, 06:45 PM
Although I don't know any HAF pilot, I seriously doubt that there are any specific rules of engagement for the kind of skirmishes that occur over the Aegean. Pilots are sent up there and I guess no amount of rocking the wings would prevent the adversary from locking them and pushing them away. It is not by chance that they meet over there, but because an order for interception has been issued.

Blottogg
05-29-2006, 01:03 AM
I agree Jatro, though the one comment about neither Greek fighter having radio contact tells me that they tried, and have possibly talked to the Turkish fighters in the past. The two situations are very different (training vs. live intercept, unarmed vs. armed), and unfortunately much more dangerous over the Aegean. I'm afraid this situation won't be solved by the pilots, but rather by the politicians. Hopefully, both the Greek and Turkish pilots will exercise restraint (as they did in the video clip, with multiple opportunities to shoot yet no shots taken) until somebody convinces these two NATO buds that they're actually allies these days, and should probably agree on a border both can live with.

luftluuver
05-29-2006, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
I've heard of those "unbriefed" dogfights over Germany. I've read an article where one pilot claims that pilots would jump each other spontanously almost any time they saw another fighter in the sky, no matter which NATO-country it belonged to.

IMHO this is the best training a pilot could get. The Canadians used to have all kinds of fun over Europe in their Sabres bouncing all kinds of other NATO a/c. They got a rep as wildmen.

Bremspropeller
05-29-2006, 07:15 AM
A friend of mine who served some time as a Tornado-fixer at B├╝chel (JaboG 33, Luftwaffe) told me, that greek and turkish pilots and crews would party together at TLP (Tactical Leadership Programme).

Pretty weird those "foreign relations". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Blottogg, how come you were in Germany, being a PACAF guy ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jatro13th
05-29-2006, 08:27 AM
Quote by Blottogg:
I'm afraid this situation won't be solved by the pilots, but rather by the politicians.
End quote.


For my country's and for Turkey's sake, I hope the problems aren't solved by pilots...

Blottogg
05-29-2006, 04:05 PM
Bremspropeller, I got lucky with an "ops-to-ops" assignment from Misawa to Ramstein. My luck caught up to me afterwards, being sent to instruct students at scenic Reese AFB, Lubbock Texas. It was a lot more fun than I expected, but still not the same as something painted gray, with a gun.

Bremspropeller
05-30-2006, 07:58 AM
Seems like you didn't retire by choice, heh ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I still aim for a fighter-jock slot in the Luftwaffe. Gotta start and finish my studies first, though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif


All the people I know who've gone through ENJPT told me that it was pretty much the greatest time they ever had (and VERY challenging at the same time). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Blottogg
05-30-2006, 07:36 PM
No, not by choice. My DO (Deputy commander for Operations) in Germany and I had a difference of opinion. I thought he was an @$$hole, and he thought I was a slacker. Turns out we were both right.

Good luck with your studies and application to ENJJPT. It was a great school for us Americans because 1) they were handing out more fighter assignments from ENJJPT than regular UPT at the time and, 2) when I asked a former instructor about the differences between the two he said "ENJJPT is better because there's a lot of AETC (Air Education and Training Command) nonsense in UPT, but the Europeans don't put up with that $hit." The Europeans seemed to like it too, with better flying weather, and a chance to see some of America. Cross-country to Los Angeles (or Huston, or Florida, or Colorado, or Las Vegas...), anyone?

There were about 20 Germans in my class (Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine), plus a couple of Brits, a Dane and a couple of Dutch. The Germans had a little trouble with English for the first couple of months, but after that we were all in the same boat ability-wise. They came over technically fluent, but not talking like natives yet, and all the instruction is in English (though we suspected German instructor/student pairings occasionally "went secure" over the intercom to get a particular training point across more quickly.) Your grammar and spelling are already better than mine, so I doubt you'll have any problems. My classmates talked about one day flying the "Jager '90" (though in 1988 they were already referring to it as "Jager 2000"), perhaps you'll actually get to fly the Eurofighter Tornado. Good luck.

Bremspropeller
05-31-2006, 07:10 AM
Well (having no F-16 in the inventory), I'd actually prefer to fly the Phantom - a real man's plane with some character behind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


But yes, they'd send me flying the Tornado or even the Eurofighter (two of four surviving Tornado wings will most-propably convert to Eurofighters...in addition to those two Fighter Wings).

BTW: someone told me that good ears are necessary. Problem is: my ears are not too good (lower pitched tones at low frequencies), my eyes being 125% though.
Will that cause serious trouble at the medic screening ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif