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View Full Version : Pilot transition from B-239 to Bf-109G2



Ditchinit
07-15-2010, 12:30 PM
Hello all. Relative new-comer to IL-2. I've been playing it offline casually for about six months.

I've been playing the offline DGEN Finnish fighter campaign (no mods), and in the campaign my plane was recently upgraded from a B-239 to a Bf-109G2. I've spent a lot of flight time in the B-239, and I'd say I know it fairly well. By comparison, I've spent very little time in a Bf-109G2 (one or two brief QMB solo familiarization check-ride type missions). To continue my campaign, I need to come up to speed on flying the Bf-109G2 fairly quickly, and I have two questions that I hope won't be too troublesome.

1) I recall that there exists, but cannot relocate, a spreadsheet of all the planes in IL-2 and their controls (i.e., Plane X has [rudder trim/superchargers/mixture/prop pitch controls/etc.], Planes Y & Z do not, etc.). Would one of you kind souls who may know the location of this spreadsheet please link me to it?

2) If you've made a similar transition between these two planes, what are the relative flight characteristic differences. I understand the concept of keeping an energy advantage over your opponent, but do I need to significantly change my combat flight tactics based on the change of air platform? Does the Bf-109G2 keep or burn more energy than the B-239, and in what way (e.g., turns, dives, etc.)?

Thanks for your considered replies.

Ba5tard5word
07-15-2010, 12:37 PM
Well the main thing is that the 109 is much faster, a G2 I think goes like 530kph top speed at sea level while the B-239 sputters along at about 400kph or so. The 239 is more sprightly and maneuverable but any faster Russian plane that can go 500kph or faster will just zip by it and you'll never be able to tail them, a 109 should let you actually tail enemy fighters depending on what the Russians fly. Against I-16's the B-239 would be arguably better because AI I-16's like to turn and roll all over the place and are hard to tail so a 109 would have a hard time keeping up with their better maneuverability in a turn battle. Faster Russian planes like Yak-1B's or whatever though are a bit less maneuverable and a 109 will match up with them pretty well. I'd say the B-239 and 109 are both pretty good compared with other planes at retaining energy and speed when in maneuvers, the issue is that the 109 is so much faster.

I don't know what spreadsheet you mean but I can tell you that any 109 version has an automatic supercharger, fuel mix, radiator and prop pitch though you can manually open and close the radiator and can set the prop pitch to manual then change it. The 109 like any other German plane only has elevator trim (up and down).

Hizack78
07-15-2010, 01:30 PM
Now, if you have the steam version. There should be an aircraft guide in your steam/steamapps/common/IL2 sturmovik 1946/(or whichever version) folder. In there is an "aircraft guide" which should be a .pdf manual.

Other then that I don't know. If possible I might be able to take screens of the stuff you'd like?

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 02:02 PM
1946 DVD version also has the Aircraft Guide PDF with controls and some notes for each plane. IIRC it's on disc 2.

IL2 Compare download (from Youss) should be a to-get item for the OP. Consider the curves are made by a version of autopilot and do not especially at low speeds or hard turns represent the limits of the planes or the best you can do. The top speeds though are very close and better than many players get.

Lastly, spend practice time just flying the 109 without enemies in QM to distract attention. 30 minutes -minimum- of that may give you a good idea of what not to do if you push it here and there while watching carefully.

How are you as far as trim, use of rudder and The Ball?

horseback
07-15-2010, 02:39 PM
The 109 is generally a pretty easy ride, in-game. The only sticking point is that there is no (adjustable) rudder trim, and a pilot would have to apply a certain amount of rudder pressure all the time to keep his aircraft flying straight and level (i.e., keep the 'ball' centered).

If you have rudder pedals, it soon becomes second nature, but a twist stick operator may find himself getting a kink in his forearm or wrist after a quarter hour or so (I did, before I saw the light--and a pair of CH Pro Pedals on sale).

Other than that, the 109 (and particularly the F-4/G-2 models) are depicted as relatively vice free.

cheers

horseback

Ditchinit
07-15-2010, 02:51 PM
Thanks for the replies. Let me address a couple comments/questions with a bit more information. As part of my check-ride familiarization, I reviewed the Aircraft Guide to note instrument layout. Except for the obvious blurry Finnish to blurry German (neither of which I know), the B-239 instruments are not in metric units, whereas the Bf-109G2 instruments are metric. I'm not too concerned with the transition between scales, but that is a detail that is certainly worth reviewing.

"How are you as far as trim, use of rudder and The Ball?" - M_Gunz

The B-239 has all three axis for trim. I wasn't too surprised to see that the Bf-109G2 only has elevator trim. I wasn't sure if it had Aileron trim, as I find my plane constantly wanting to roll one direction or the other while in cruise flight. I suppose a set of rudder pedals would be advantageous (as opposed to a twisty stick) for flying the Bf-109G2, but alas, I only have a Saitek X52 Pro without rudder pedals so will have to do my best to compensate. If you're asking if I'm aware of the concepts of trim and coordinated turns, then I confirm that I am.

The pilot's notes in the Aircraft Guide are somewhat generic, and I was hoping to gain supplementary insight from other pilot's experience on the specific differences in flight characteristics between the two birds: B-239 and Bf-109G2.

It looks like, in my limited exposure to the Bf-109G2, that I will need to focus on using more BnZ tactics and less turn-fighting tactics (although limited turn fighting appears to still be an option); I'll be able to better utilize the higher horsepower engine and speed of the Bf-109G2. In the B-239, I could BnZ some but that plane bled energy fairly quickly in climbs due to relatively low horsepower engine. A couple BnZ passes were mostly useful as an opener to reduce the number of enemies prior to protracted turn fighting. For example, if the mission is to protect [a train, vehicles, etc.] from enemy bombers, one needs to intercept and quickly dispatch the fighter escort early before concentrating on downing the bombers (before they reach their target zone).

Thanks again for your considered replies.

Edit to add: The Bf-109G2 also only has nose guns, whereas the B-239 has both nose and wing guns. This is another small detail to recognize for aligning shots outside of the convergence point but still within effective shooting distance (e.g., shooting at an out-of-phase rolling target between 0.5x and 1.5x convergence distance).

JtD
07-15-2010, 03:05 PM
The 109G-2 is great in climbs, so you should emphasize on maneuvers where it benefits from that. For instance, while it is hard to out turn the Soviet opposition (but far from impossible), you can do so in a climbing turn (spiral climb).

What you will need to get used to is the far worse high speed maneuverability - the 109 is significantly restricted here from 400km/h up. And watch the fuel gauge, this thing does not nearly have the range of a B-239, in particular at high power settings.

Also, try to fly at higher altitudes, the Yaks and LaGG's run out of steam above 4km, so if you fight at 6, you can almost fly rings around them. The La-5 is also easy meat at around 4km up, while the later types get somewhat improved high altitude performance.

Eventually, I'd suggest that you do as you proposed - focus on BnZ, where you can take advantage of your climb rate. It might be worth flying with gondolas early on, but as the war goes on and the opposition gets stronger, they will slow you down too much. So it's best to not use them in the first place, but work on your accuracy with the nose cannon. That's also a bit of a transition from the B-239 - now you need to get close.

I usually fly the 109's with a bit of up trim, so pulling up in high speed passes is a bit easier.

Good hunting! And stay away from AAA!

K_Freddie
07-15-2010, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Ditchinit:
.. the B-239 instruments are not in metric units, whereas the Bf-109G2 instruments are metric. I'm not too concerned with the transition between scales, but that is a detail that is certainly worth reviewing.
Not important.. just make sure the aircraft is flying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Originally posted by Ditchinit:
I suppose a set of rudder pedals would be advantageous

This cannot be over-emphasized... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Originally posted by Ditchinit:
The pilot's notes in the Aircraft Guide are somewhat generic, and I was hoping to gain supplementary insight from other pilot's experience on the specific differences in flight characteristics between the two birds: B-239 and Bf-109G2.

Not necessary - just fly the plane and try 'crash it' without doing so... you'll learn fast enough



Originally posted by Ditchinit:
It looks like, in my limited exposure to the Bf-109G2, that I will need to focus on using more BnZ tactics and less turn-fighting tactics
Oooooooo... No ways. You need to focus on how to handle the a/c (any a/c for that matter) in a tight turning fight, more than anything else. Anybody can push their foot on the pedal and hyperspace down the road - it's a no-brainer.
You will get into many 'tight-turners', and if you don't know how.. you're swiss-cheese
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ditchinit
07-15-2010, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
And watch the fuel gauge, this thing does not nearly have the range of a B-239, in particular at high power settings.

Good to know, thanks. The B-239 does seem to go forever on a full tank of fuel at 100% power and prop. It also didn't seem to overheat flying all day long at those settings and closed radiator. Maybe it was the aircraft, or maybe just the ambient temperature in the area I was fighting. I should test it in the QMB on the Okinawa map.



Originally posted by JtD:
And stay away from AAA!

Always sound advice. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ba5tard5word
07-15-2010, 03:12 PM
Except for the obvious blurry Finnish to blurry German (neither of which I know), the B-239 instruments are not in metric units, whereas the Bf-109G2 instruments are metric. I'm not too concerned with the transition between scales, but that is a detail that is certainly worth reviewing.

Well the B-239 is an export version of the Brewster F2A Buffalo so it is an American plane and so it uses Imperial units--feet, miles, etc. If you have the HUD thingy in the lower left of your screen it will show your speed and altitude and you can change it back and forth from metric to imperial no matter what plane you're in.

As for getting used to planes, honestly the best thing to do is just get experience flying a plane to see what it can do. Get in a dogfight and you'll quickly see what it can and can't do.

Ditchinit
07-15-2010, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
As for getting used to planes, honestly the best thing to do is just get experience flying a plane to see what it can do. Get in a dogfight and you'll quickly see what it can and can't do.

I went ahead and played the first couple of missions using the new Bf-109G2, and these missions were of the "protect area X from Russian bombers" types. The only opposition thrown at me were LaGG-3 (type 66), IL-2 and IL-4 bombers. I was pleasantly surprised at the speed and maneuverability of the Bf-109G2, compared to the B-239, and recorded my highest individual sortie kill count against LaGG-3 aircraft. My squad mates mopped up the bomber fleets quite handily too. The match up between the Bf-109G2 and the LaGG-3 seems favorable to the Bf-109G2, in similar yet different ways that the B-239 vs I-16 match up is favorable to the B-239 (qualifier: at least given the skill level of the enemies in the campaign mission).

ROXunreal
07-15-2010, 04:53 PM
Even the older 109 versions should eat Lagg's for breakfast. Just watch out for Lavochkins as they pose a great threat under 3km if you find yourself low on E.

I've been flying 109's more and more in recent months (didn't fly them at all before) and have come to like them, though I still can't get over the high speed elevator lock-up that makes BnZ futile in most cases when you are spotted

Fogmaster_
07-15-2010, 05:03 PM
I see you have already found that the G2 is a marvelous airplane!

It is arguably the best of the 109's. While it does not have the mk108 it has the fastest (according to hardball's viewer) turn rate of any 109.

I would suggest you shell out the bucks for a decent pair of rudder pedals. I have the CH setup and it works great. I hear that the Saitek is ok as well.

You are going to need the rudder pedals if you want to keep your wrist from getting sore.


hmmmm oh yeah some tips on the 109

I only use combat flaps taking off, make sure if you are taxiing that you have flaps fully up.

Takeoff speed is around 160 kmph
Landing speed is around 180 kmph


After takeoff dont climb too high until you get to about 250 or 300 kmph and you will climb much faster.

You can cruise comfortably at 70-75% throttle. No need to push it to 95+ on a cruise. You really won't see that much of an improvement for the gas consumption.

Also, you are going to need a key bound for switching the gunsight view (I think shift + f1?) as it is off center.

as others said, she gets a bit stiff in high speed dives so be careful.

Also this is mostly a Boom and Zoom plane so try to not get sucked into turn fights.

Fogmaster_
07-15-2010, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by ROXunreal:
Even the older 109 versions should eat Lagg's for breakfast. Just watch out for Lavochkins as they pose a great threat under 3km if you find yourself low on E.

I've been flying 109's more and more in recent months (didn't fly them at all before) and have come to like them, though I still can't get over the high speed elevator lock-up that makes BnZ futile in most cases when you are spotted

**DUCKS**

This is going to sound lame but its true... You can acutally get your plane to respond during these high speed lock up sittuation (and black outs too) by trimming your elevator instead of pulling your stick.

for some reason trimming will allow you to move the control surface where pulling the stick won't.

I have confirmed on 109's and P38's

mortoma
07-15-2010, 08:15 PM
Use the 109s ability to extend away from other planes, especially in vertical maneuvers, where it excels. It's a very dynamic plane with lots of zoom and dive potential since it retains energy well if you fly carefully. A horizontal turn fight should be avoided unless maybe it's with only one opponent. It can also climb away from most planes except from LA-5s and 7s at lower altitudes. But above 4000 meters it can out climb most everything. After flying the Buffalo, you can now more easily dictate whether to fight or run. The 109G2 is great at both fighting or running away if you are low in ammo or simply too outnumbered. So use what you now have to advantage. Don't try to run away from Yaks at low level unless it's a nice gradual climb at high speed and same goes for LA-5. Try to avoid fighting down low period. Lure Russians up higher.

Ditchinit
07-15-2010, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Fogmaster_:
hmmmm oh yeah some tips on the 109
.
.
.
.

Great tips, thanks.


Originally posted by mortoma:
After flying the Buffalo, you can now more easily dictate whether to fight or run. The 109G2 is great at both fighting or running away if you are low in ammo or simply too outnumbered.
In the B-239, I can't recall an instance where I would rather have run than stay and fight (although I do understand the concept). I think the better phrasing would be that I can now more easily dictate whether to fight or catch the runners in time to stop the bombers (never ignore the enemy behind you). Even though I'm fairly frugal with the trigger finger, I have occasionally run out of ammo. I try not to shoot unless the target is between 0.5x and 1.0x of my convergence (currently set at 200m but I change it up occasionally).

Rarely*, have I been uncomfortably outnumbered, except when I look around for my squad mates and they've taken themselves halfway back to base with visions of warm beer and cold wimmin ... or something like that. But even with only me and my trusty wingman (Hey, where'd he go? Get back here you s**b&%$^&!), I try not to outnumber the AI. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously, I understand what you're saying and thanks for the advice. In a slow Brewster, running away was rarely an option, especially against MiGs, Yaks, and LaGGs, so I learned to command and try to take advantage of my squad mates ... to help them get kills so they became better skilled. I think that strategy has paid off, judging by how quickly they mow through flights of IL-2s.



*short story about being outnumbered: When I was brand spanking new to the game, I started a USMC Pacific fighter campaign (DGEN), and began my career at Wake Island flying F3Fs. The first mission was a two-plane scramble against thirty-six incoming Zekes (after the third cold watery insta-death, I counted them). Yeah, no where to run ... and no future in that career. The scars ... the scars ... *nervous twitch* ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Fogmaster_:
for some reason trimming will allow you to move the control surface where pulling the stick won't.

Simple and good reason there. Stick interface is strength-based. Your hardware joystick is not commanding 1:1 movement of the virtual model stick. Your stick movements are telling the virtual pilot how much of his limited strength to apply to the virtual model stick. If the backforce on the virtual stick is more than you have commanded then the virtual stick position is not where your hardware is positioned. BTW, I am not guessing about this or arriving at my own conclusion from tests -- that comes from Oleg circa 2002 and since.

Trim OTOH like real trim does not operate with pilot strength limits and you -can- fly a plane IRL using only trim.

JG53Frankyboy
07-15-2010, 11:59 PM
endurance with 100% fuel
B-239 100% power and pitch is 1 hour 28 minutes
Bf109G-2 100% power is 54 minutes
in IL2

K_Freddie
07-16-2010, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Fogmaster_:
I see you have already found that the G2 is a marvelous airplane!
After that hop into a G6AS.. It has many suprises up it's sleeve.

It only has 1 Cannon and 2 MGs, but get close and aim for the pit and engines, and you'll do fine.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-16-2010, 12:44 AM
as it looks like he is "only" playing for the FAF , his next plane in 1944 will be the 109G-6.
THAT will be a crude shock after the joy to have flown the G-2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-> http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fafincolor.html (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fafincolor.html)

Ditchinit
07-16-2010, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
as it looks like he is "only" playing for the FAF , his next plane in 1944 will be the 109G-6.
THAT will be a crude shock after the joy to have flown the G-2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-> http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fafincolor.html (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fafincolor.html)

I'm sure I'll get to burn that bridge when I cross it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've been enjoying the Finnish campaign, true. Thanks for the link; it was very interesting.

M_Gunz
07-16-2010, 11:57 AM
You just need to baby the G-6 early a bit more, not ask as much from it and manage your energy more carefully.
Pluses of the G-6 are more armor and 2x better MGs, also Mk 108 options in nose or flight-performance-lowering-gunpods.

Flight performance isn't everything and fancy aerobatics certainly are of less worth than speed, but the early G-6 is slower than the G-2. Firepower though can make up for a lot of margin in flight performance.

What it adds up to is that a G-6 with the big guns needs a combat style based on getting close and using very short bursts. Crossing circles or flying yoyos in dogfights fits well as do BnZ passes. The G-2 is the better dogfighter but the trend of the war went away from dogfights.

Ditchinit
07-18-2010, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Ditchinit:
1) I recall that there exists, but cannot relocate, a spreadsheet of all the planes in IL-2 and their controls (i.e., Plane X has [rudder trim/superchargers/mixture/prop pitch controls/etc.], Planes Y & Z do not, etc.). Would one of you kind souls who may know the location of this spreadsheet please link me to it?


After much discussion of the second question, I've finally relocated the spreadsheet asked about in the first question. The sheet can be found at mission4today, and is a little dated (for v4.07) but is still useful.
http://www.mission4today.com/i...file=details&id=1740 (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1740)

Thanks again for all of your comments.