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potver
07-15-2009, 02:07 AM
Hi there,

Is it doable to lengthen my Microsoft precision 2 joystick some 30cm? or doesn,t it works the same as before?
I know , I,ve read it somewhere but can,t find it anymore.
Please, your expertise and findings.

Friendly_flyer
07-15-2009, 02:18 AM
It's fully possible to du, but moving all the wiring and buttons is a bit of a job.

GH_Klingstroem
07-15-2009, 03:27 AM
I bought a really cheap stick a few years ago and did exactly that just to see what happened.
I added a 45 cm tube and put the bottom half of it in the stick platform and added the top part of the joystick at the top of the tube. I then put the stick on the floor and basically had stick resembling what they had in ww2 with the handlde ending up at kneeheight...
Now the interesting thing was that all flying controls became waaaaay to sluggish unless I put 100 all the way for pitch and elevator in il2 input. All the wobbles were gone, mind you this is was under 4.07!

It was an interesting experiment!!

jayhall0315
07-15-2009, 03:56 AM
Of course they would be sluggish without a response curve adjustment to both the springs and the pots. Take a CH Fighterstick, and move it 5 inches or so to the upper right hand corner and you have reached its travel stops. With a 45 cm stick extension you would have to move the head maybe something like 13 inches for it to now reach its stops. So the whole travel range would feel very sluggish since it takes much more travel range to indicate the same virtual change.

GH_Klingstroem
07-15-2009, 04:36 AM
that was exaclty my point. if you want to use 100 across the board u should also have a 100% replica of a ww2 stick otherwise it will be too senstive and u will most likely also suffer from the wobbles! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

general_kalle
07-15-2009, 04:48 AM
Viagra might do the job mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

deepo_HP
07-15-2009, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
Viagra might do the job mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif he was talking about spacial prolonging, not temporal.

ontopic:
i guess it is also a question of resolution... so discrete steps can be perhaps noticeable already at the beforementioned 13 inches of way.
i can't remember, was it 16bit/65000 or 8bit/256 in each direction?

Zeus-cat
07-15-2009, 04:17 PM
Viagra might do the job mate

I think you mean that Enzyte stuff that "Smiling Bob" advertises. I don't know how they got their ads back on the air after all the fraudulent stuff they got caught doing.

Urufu_Shinjiro
07-15-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Viagra might do the job mate

I think you mean that Enzyte stuff that "Smiling Bob" advertises. I don't know how they got their ads back on the air after all the fraudulent stuff they got caught doing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to further the OT talk, but got link? I missed this news...

Pigeon_
07-15-2009, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by potver:
I know , I,ve read it somewhere but can,t find it anymore.

Try the 'unwanted / blocked e-mails folder'. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

julian265
07-15-2009, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
that was exaclty my point. if you want to use 100 across the board u should also have a 100% replica of a ww2 stick otherwise it will be too senstive and u will most likely also suffer from the wobbles! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Exactly. My long throw has all sliders at 100%, no damping, and if you move it by 2mm at it's top, you get a suitably small IL2 response.

The other advantage of long throw and a linear input curve is that its response is always predictable: if you're already holding some pitch, you'll get a proportional response whether you move the stick further from or towards the center, unlike a non-linear curve, which tends to drop the response toward the center.

Sokol__1
07-15-2009, 06:21 PM
This video show a difference bewteen prolonged stick moviments and the game (Condor Soaring in case).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A9FiEwW8bk

Sokol1

potver
07-16-2009, 02:13 AM
Thanks guys, interesting answers.
That was a nice video Sokol-1!

Probably a longer response time which isn,t desirable in a dogfight!

Better to buy a professional build-one.
Anyone with a Tarmac -one or Simware or Aeropit?
I like to hear your experience.

triad773
07-16-2009, 03:37 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The title of this thread showed up in my spam folder yesterday http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

But... seriously- good topic. I had thought of retooling a stick I have in some fashion so the topic is relevant and potentially helpful.

Thanks for posting

Triad

BillSwagger
07-16-2009, 04:05 AM
i was toying with the idea of adjusting the Y axis to get more throw from it. Wouldnt require a hardware adjustment, but it would take some configuring of your control panel calibration and the need to, some how, do the same in Il2 Joy.

Normal Y axis:

Max+
.
.
.
. even throw (positive)
.
.
.
.
<-------- center------------- . . . . X axis
.
.
.
.
. even throw (negative)
.
.
.
.
Max -


Now since most airplane only allow for limited elevator response when you push forward, you could use that extra throw for more accurate movements when pulling on the stick.
So in theory the new Y axis would look like this:



Max+
.
. shorter throw (positive)
.
.
.
.
<-------- center------------- . . . . X axis
.
.
.
.
.
.
. longer throw throw (negative)
.
.
.
.
Max -


I'm not sure how this would translate physically, because most joysticks are spring loaded and would cause your Joystick to always nose up, when physically centered, however i was able to calibrate (trick the joystick) into thinking that it was centered, but it didn't translate the same information in Il2 joy..

It looked like this.


Max+
.
.
.
.
.
.
*[ ] the box is normally centered on the line but my calibration caused it to pull positive.
. /\
----------- center-------------
. |
. |
. |
.
. there's more throw from this point in il2 joy,...
. |
. |
. |
.
. \/
Max -


...but Il2 Joy doesn't interpret the new center line, it causes you to nose forward. If it could adjust to the new center line...that would be great.

Then you could more accurately adjust your negative throw, while you positive throw doesn't require the same accuracy.

I'm no software engineer so i wouldn't know where to start on that.

norton1974
07-16-2009, 10:01 AM
Hi potver,

I have lengthened several saitek st 290 about 30 inches that work very well but it does take some work. I still use the input curve of 1-100
however the movement of the stick has to be reduced by some means.

I have posted pics around the end of feb of this year if you would like to look.

This is very possible to do and if you need help i can give you some ideas.

squareusr
07-16-2009, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by deepo_HP:
i guess it is also a question of resolution... so discrete steps can be perhaps noticeable already at the beforementioned 13 inches of way.
i can't remember, was it 16bit/65000 or 8bit/256 in each direction?

The USB interface uses 16 bit for the axis values but typical commercially available sticks only use 8 of those or even less. Even the best Bodnar Units only give 12 bits and you need expert wiring and shielding to create a circuit that does not totally drown the 12th bit in noise, despite some smart filtering in the BU.


The other advantage of long throw and a linear input curve is that its response is always predictable: if you're already holding some pitch, you'll get a proportional response whether you move the stick further from or towards the center, unlike a non-linear curve, which tends to drop the response toward the center.
That's exactly why i love my long throw monstrosity too. Trim feels kind of optional that way. When i switched from an Evo Force to my long-throw my botched-landing-rate was going south faster than a high-risk investment fund, and we are talking about mid/late 2008 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Recently i've thought about softening the curve a little in the center, because the slight movement caused by the trigger action is throwing off my aim more than it should - but i guess i'll just make the trigger lighter and/or switch back to left-handed shooting. The even rate is worth it.

About response times: wrist movement will always be faster than full arm movement. Intuitive full arm movement is particularly slow, but with a conscious, planned effort of will you can still become quite fast, at least faster than the in-game control surfaces will ever move. Now the question is: are those speed limitations only visual or do they affect the flight model too?

But that's not all: if you have an intensive dogfight to care about you are not very likely to concentrate on doing those faster-than-intuitive full-arm movements, but will stick to the intuitive, slow movements, while wrist movements would always be fast.

Training might help but personally i have not reached the point were i could safely claim that i can always switch as quickly as possible to full deflection on the ailerons in every situation where that might be necessary. Luckily, my stick already has a slightly smaller movement range (about 15-20 cm from center to full) on the ailerons than on the elevators, where you would never want spontaneous full deflection anyways.

rfxcasey
07-16-2009, 10:33 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the longer armature give you better aiming sensativity to some degree, at least where the human factor is involved?

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-17-2009, 08:46 PM
Most peeps who think 100% sensitivity is too sensitive are usually ham-fisted and over-react with their inputs.

I've used 100% default inputs since day one. I experimented with them about 5 years ago, but found time in the cockpit was a better way to adjust to stick sensitivities.

At least it works for me.

potver
07-18-2009, 03:32 AM
TgD Thunderbolt 56,
Do you still fly with a long stick?
And still satisfactory?
Do you have screenies?

potver
07-22-2009, 05:01 AM
SOKOL-1,,

Can you tell me how to change the grip with another grip?

Sokol__1
07-22-2009, 11:31 AM
I reply in SimHQ. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Sokol1

TX-EcoDragon
07-22-2009, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by rfxcasey:
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the longer armature give you better aiming sensativity to some degree, at least where the human factor is involved?

You're correct - the issue many have is the simple fact that the longer stick will reduce transition rates somewhat and the need for greater stick movements for a given response means your hand has to move faster on the longer stick than the shorter.

That said, it's much more precise when you want it to be, and only takes getting used to. I'm quite certain that a proper full length stick will not be much disadvantage to a sim pilot who is used to it when it comes to quick transitions from left to right roll etc. Many simmers might be surprised at what real world pilots do to make an airplane perform at the limits. . .it is a workout, you are moving as fast and as forcibly as you can in some cases but I'll take that over the little joysticks most of us have any day. The problem someone might have (as I did) is that if you use it as you would a real aircraft stick, it must be built with appropriately strong sticks, gimbals, and travel stops. If I fly the extended X-45 I made a long time ago the same way I fly the real world Pitts or Extra the thing will be in pieces after the first hesitation roll. I like the idea of the universal joints as a gimbal, the trick then is to get appropriate centering forces and control feel incorporated.

Another potential issue is in the sim software which may be de-tuned for use with short travel, short throw, low force joysticks. IL-2 with all sliders at 100 is just fine though, Rise of Flight is ideal for it, and presumably BOB will be as well.

potver
07-23-2009, 01:12 AM
Thanks Tx-EcoDragon for your experience

Sokol__1
08-10-2009, 11:40 AM
Sample of "lengthy" joystick, Tm Fox Pro:

http://spread-wings.ru/phorum/...ew=findpost&p=116423 (http://spread-wings.ru/phorum/index.php?showtopic=6296&view=findpost&p=116423)

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=57092

User comment (Google translator):



"What is the result?
Smooth uniform loading in any direction.
Thanks to the great progress in the IL-2 an opportunity to show the curves for 100 and at the same time very accurately fly.
The feeling of flying and aerobatics completely different."


Sokol1