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View Full Version : Ground Attack, AA Fire (primarily) [REQUEST]



volkware.xyz
12-18-2004, 04:21 PM
Greetings,

It has come to the attention of my small group - playing every weekend - that IL-2 FB Gold Pack could use:

- a reduction in the top armour of tanks

- a reduction in the accuracy of anti-aircraft and flak fire

- a cessation of gunfire by the AA gun currently being strafed, occassionally

Trying to make a ground attack in an enemy-rich environment is nigh unto impossible, or at least certainly more difficult to do than it should be. Attempting to spot a tiny lone AA gun (for example) amongst the terrain, while dodging AA, while evading interceptors, is difficult enough. Trying to hit that target with gunfire is another task.

When you swap an AA gun for even the weakest of tanks - as represented in IL-2 - the prospect of successfully concluding a ground attack run is almost impossible.

Our contention is thus: surely 20mm guns firing with the plane`s additional kinetic energy down into 1 cm thick top-armour should be sufficient to have a fair chance of destroying the tank... ? As it is now, using guns on any armour in the game is useless and a waste of ammo, even munitions specifically meant to defeat armour (!).

And bear in mind this game was originally predicated upon ground attack.

As for AA accuracy, a friend brought up an interesting and compelling statistic. The average ratio of hits to shots fired from AA was 1 to 250,000. We do not believe this is the ratio at play in IL-2. Granted, IL-2 may not have as many AA guns present as were actually present in reality so some compensation is in order, but we find that AA fire is a little too withering.

We love IL-2 and we love the air combat, but we also enjoy the ground attack aspect, which at this time is not *quite* what it could be. Very close, but not quite.

We would also like to see the following in campaigns:

-tracking of A.I. deaths/kills

- breakdown of ground target kills

-breakdown of airborne kills (by type as with ground targets previous)

- the ability to view these statistics

- ability to choose the airfield from which you wish to fly, and the ability to utilize the aircraft that are there, not just those in your flight group (i.e. to hop in whatever aircraft are available at that airfield)

One last comment shared by all of us: please implement in a patch sprite squads of infantry on the ground so we may strafe them with machinegun fire from Stukas etc. . It was done in EA`s WWII Fighters, surely it can be done here.

Thank you for your time.

volkware.xyz
12-18-2004, 04:21 PM
Greetings,

It has come to the attention of my small group - playing every weekend - that IL-2 FB Gold Pack could use:

- a reduction in the top armour of tanks

- a reduction in the accuracy of anti-aircraft and flak fire

- a cessation of gunfire by the AA gun currently being strafed, occassionally

Trying to make a ground attack in an enemy-rich environment is nigh unto impossible, or at least certainly more difficult to do than it should be. Attempting to spot a tiny lone AA gun (for example) amongst the terrain, while dodging AA, while evading interceptors, is difficult enough. Trying to hit that target with gunfire is another task.

When you swap an AA gun for even the weakest of tanks - as represented in IL-2 - the prospect of successfully concluding a ground attack run is almost impossible.

Our contention is thus: surely 20mm guns firing with the plane`s additional kinetic energy down into 1 cm thick top-armour should be sufficient to have a fair chance of destroying the tank... ? As it is now, using guns on any armour in the game is useless and a waste of ammo, even munitions specifically meant to defeat armour (!).

And bear in mind this game was originally predicated upon ground attack.

As for AA accuracy, a friend brought up an interesting and compelling statistic. The average ratio of hits to shots fired from AA was 1 to 250,000. We do not believe this is the ratio at play in IL-2. Granted, IL-2 may not have as many AA guns present as were actually present in reality so some compensation is in order, but we find that AA fire is a little too withering.

We love IL-2 and we love the air combat, but we also enjoy the ground attack aspect, which at this time is not *quite* what it could be. Very close, but not quite.

We would also like to see the following in campaigns:

-tracking of A.I. deaths/kills

- breakdown of ground target kills

-breakdown of airborne kills (by type as with ground targets previous)

- the ability to view these statistics

- ability to choose the airfield from which you wish to fly, and the ability to utilize the aircraft that are there, not just those in your flight group (i.e. to hop in whatever aircraft are available at that airfield)

One last comment shared by all of us: please implement in a patch sprite squads of infantry on the ground so we may strafe them with machinegun fire from Stukas etc. . It was done in EA`s WWII Fighters, surely it can be done here.

Thank you for your time.

VW-IceFire
12-18-2004, 04:29 PM
Read Pierre Clostermans "The Big Show"...skip to the last 1/3rd of the chapter. It talks about his experiences with the RAF's 2nd Tacticai AirForce flying Tempest V's (one of the fastest and most powerful tactically oriented single engined fighters of the war). You will have a new found appreciation for the hell that the real pilots went to and the comparitively friendly skies that we're flying through.

Work on your ground pounding abilities and you should be able to get through most types of basic flak. The heavy concentrations are something you may just not be able to avoid in any credible fashion.

About the tanks...yes its quite possible to destroy most of the tanks with a 20mm cannon burst. However, you have to dive on the tank aiming for the topside of the turret. The tactic does work...if properly executed you can destroy one or two tanks per run. Certain AP rocket types as well as the AT cannons on the Stuka and other types do wonders. But they aren't one hit automatically means a kill. You have to dive on the target and hit the tank in that turret area.

Look up the statistics for damage done to real tanks during the Normandy invasion. RAF Typhoons were everywhere during this time using rockets and cannon fire on tanks. Not as many tanks were knocked out of action as was initially reported. Although the pscyhological impact of the air strikes was deadly, actual tanks destroyed was minimal.

t0n.
12-18-2004, 10:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Trying to make a ground attack in an enemy-rich environment is nigh unto impossible, or at least certainly more difficult to do than it should be. Attempting to spot a tiny lone AA gun (for example) amongst the terrain, while dodging AA, while evading interceptors, is difficult enough. Trying to hit that target with gunfire is another task. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The gameworld becomes more realistic (and survivable) I find when I've got a couple of teamies on the same strike doing specific anti-flak for me.

When its just me and a gaggle of stupid bots I do find that withering AA... withers. It's then that I really do see your point.

Vipez-
12-19-2004, 07:26 AM
and what tanks you are mostly referring? If you are trying to knock out german heavy cats, don't expect to be successful with the 20 mms.. for example Tiger I has Turret Top at 25 mm, upper hull top at 25 mm, lower hull top at 25 mm.. and later models had even more reinforced turrets, basicly it was very rare to knock out tanks like TIgers, Panthers, not to mention King Tigers with 20 mm cannons..

IRL the actual amount of destroyed heavy german cats was really low (as well was the number of them compared to more common german armor, like StuG/PZ mark 4..).. most common reason for crews to abandon their heavy cats was lack of petrol, and weight of the tanks causing them to get bugged.. or tracks getting damaged by cannon fire causing the vehicle to stop..

Imho, i would much more like to see much more variation in different flaks, esspecially in german arsenal. It was the flak, that shot down most of the ground pounders in ww2, not fighters.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

volkware.xyz
12-19-2004, 12:27 PM
What angle of dive are you envisioning in order to achieve a topside hit? I think in 50+ missions of ground attacking my wing leader and I have managed to kill about 3 tanks. Two were by bomb. Generally, when we can, we take a couple of 110s with the extra belly pod of 20mm guns; 4 20s blasting down on these targets seems to do nothing. If the angle is too steep, by the time we get to within gun range we can never pull out. Acknowledging the possibility that it modelled such realities incorrectly, in WWII Fighters my fellows and I could consistently make armour kills with FW-190 20s, assuming we dove sharply enough and actually managed to hit the target (!). And those were steep angles (50 to 60 degrees). Shermans and a few open-topped howitzers, I believe... its been a while. My own personal unease stems from this gameplay comparison and from an uneventful history of IL-2 armour-hunting. What angle should we come in at to have a hope in Hell of penetration?

The only tanks we`ve seen (that we`ve been up against) are the BT fast tanks and T-34s. As it is, the wing leader and I just cackle and shrug our shoulders when we see a briefing to "take out enemy armour". I`d HATE to be flying the Stuka with 8 or 12 (?) measely shots in the 37s, shot convergence compounding the matter, with armour striking as the goal.

As for the AA, yes, sometimes my wing leader will fly decoy while I do the run, which can work well. I`ve even managed to weave my lone way into and out of enemy airfields without taking damage. But its terribly tough.

If this is how AA and flak actually were, thats good enough for me. Not having been there though I am reliant on educated doubts and assumptions. I regret I did not catch the name of the book that mentioned that AA kill ratio - I`ll ask him next time I see him.

BBB_Hyperion
12-19-2004, 03:17 PM
1st there will be no patches to products lower than PF version anymore .

The aaa have been tuned down in later versions i think. It was really hard in some versions without patches.

2nd your inability to take tanks out seems based on inexperience.

Small tanks and some of the medium tanks can be taken out from top with 20 mm or 50s pziv pziii bt7 etc.

Tanks with heavier armor t34 etc not.

The best Tank killers are the Ju87 G , Me110 with BK 3.7 and 190 with mk103 on other site il2 m , p38 , p47 .

Its not easy to aquire correct tactics for 110 ju87 and fw to be able to take out tanks without crashing into the ground but it is possible.

Dive angles are medium tanks 35 degrees + for heavier tanks more. Small Tanks can be taken out from the Side.

Willey
12-19-2004, 03:57 PM
Bump!

We need:

Skill level & Sleep time for Flak, tanks, artillery
Radius setting for ships

Default skill is Veteran. Putting it down to Average or even Rookie would help a lot, but we need the switch first http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif

I also like the idea to have the Gun seize fire when under fire. Even if you don't get the gun completely. Especially a burst of MG 17 that may not damage the AA gun should disable it because it will kill the crew that mans the gun. Until some other guys man it, it should take 2-10mins, randomly. Some kind of suppression. Especially on ships this is essential. Most guns there are very hard to knock off because they take lots of damage. I mean those 40mm and 20mm and 50 cal things. Not the big 4/5" or whatever.

Willey
12-21-2004, 01:39 PM
Also bumpen muß man den Thread schon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

volkware.xyz
12-22-2004, 12:32 PM
35 degrees?

Thats awfully shallow/tame compared to what we`ve been flying, to no effect. Normally we try 60-65 degree tank runs.

Willey has a good idea there (thanks Willy) - give us controls with which to set the AA skill levels. A "Random" setting would be nice. Same with control over 'sleep' settings.

I recently made my way past a single AA gun on the way to a strafe target in my pristine 110 and POP - one shot slew my pilot (black screen of death). I know what everyone, including myself, would immediately say to this: it happens sometimes. The problem is this always happens. Given the same circumstance that AA gunner will too consistently nail you. He shouldn`t. His chances of such should be lower.

*If*, and I repeat *if* this is realistic, it is certainly not fun.

If there are no further official patches for pre-PF sims, perhaps a kind fan coder might tweak things in their stead, sort of the way Taldren handled things with Starfleet Command. UberDemon, for example (volunteering you... grin).

HansKnappstick
12-23-2004, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warlok_0:
I think in 50+ missions of ground attacking my wing leader and I have managed to kill about 3 tanks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you have 100 missions and 3 kills on tanks. Seems pretty OK.

volkware.xyz
12-23-2004, 06:09 PM
I don`t know about that... all those missions were specifically ground attack... .

As for AA settings, I`d tackle it by giving players an "AA gunnery" skill setting which could be set to Random, Random-Low End, and Random High End. The range would tend to/hover in the appropriate skill ranges. This way the majority of AA gunners encountered would be (with Random-Low End in this case) of nominal ability, with an occassional skilled battery here or there. You could be flying along and encounter a particularly remarkable gun crew that stands out, "Watch that south end of the runway - there`s a deadly AA there... ."

*
Also,

Please add a command to Comms menus that tells wingmen with bombs to "Jettison Payloads". By definition this will PREVENT (!) A.I. wingmen carrying bombs from dropping them at the first sniff of enemy aircraft, no matter the circumstance, unless you explicitly tell them to.

*
Also,

Add a command to Comms menus to Return To Nearest Air Base. Sometimes heading for the normal home is AA/Flak suicide.

*
Also,

Make it so that if a wing leader lands and the remainder of the squadron is not currently engaged in a combat situation, that remainder will automatically try to land as well (following the lead of the wing leader).

GvSAP_Dart
12-23-2004, 08:37 PM
Or, one could go to my website, http://www.darts-page.com, and under the movies section, download the instructional videos on how to ground attack in IL-2/FB/AEP/PF.

Ground targets are ***** cats, once you figure out how to handle them.

And multiple AA guns aren't that big a deal once you sort out how you're going to deal with them.

Bear in mind that the best way to attack ground targets is with several friends, including one or two flying top cover to get rid of bad guys and distract the AA.

volkware.xyz
12-31-2004, 01:41 PM
I still have yet to watch that video - will soon - but I have to say that the A.I. is still too consistently deadly with AA fire. You`d think Clint Eastwood was manning the one (of two... of five if you count the 3 I destroyed) that ably dissected me recently.

I repeat: the problem here is that Clint Eastwood is ALWAYS manning these guns. Simplest solution? Lower all AA skill to Rookie. Is there a way to manually modify config files to force this?

VW-IceFire
12-31-2004, 02:04 PM
I've been flying ground attack and tank busting specifically for the last few days online. Usually I mix it up but I'm tending to stick to ground attack more often then not now.

Busting tanks has become a specialty. Its fairly easy once you have the right approach to it. Keep trying!

WereSnowleopard
12-31-2004, 03:42 PM
Okay...how about get Hs-129 to be flyable.

volkware.xyz
01-01-2005, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Keep trying! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We will, believe me.