PDA

View Full Version : using roll defensively

bazzaah2
01-17-2007, 03:52 AM
Just trying to work something out and maybe you could help me out here....As I understand it, the vector roll is used primarily as an offensive ploy to negate an opponent's superior turning ability.

Is there an equivalent defensive manoeuvre that allows a better rolling aircraft to shake off a better turning aircraft on its 6? Assume that I'm in a 190A-6 doing about 500km/h TAS, just started a turn and a La5FN gets on my 6. I won't want to carry on with that turn.

I guess you can just use roll rate to break out of the turn but risk giving the pilot on your 6 a firing solution as you do so, if you stay in the horizontal at least.

I suppose you could pull the stick up as you roll in the opposite direction to the turn and then dive away (kind of barrel roll out of the turn)? And equally I suppose you can roll with the turn and dive away as well.

Anyway, does the vector roll have a defensive equivalent? If so, is it just called a vector roll when used defensively, or is it called something else?

I can pull off a vector roll sometimes and figure there should be something just as neat to lose an opponent but not sure what the best way to achieve that is.

Sorry if unclear but thanks anyway for any input!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be
anything up to eight hundred yards long.

Tully__
01-17-2007, 04:51 AM

In more depth, the idea is to be turning in a direction that is not currently available to the other guy, thus getting further away from his direction of travel and line of fire. It doesn't matter that he can turn harder than you if he can't turn in the same direction as you. Because you have the roll advantage, you can pick a direction of turn (up/down as well as right/left) faster than he can follow.

The great thing about this is that you can keep your hauling on the stick gentle and not waste a lot of energy. Any time he does get his wings rolled to the same angle as you he has to haul hard on the stick and create a lot of drag to try and make up lost ground. Meanwhile you're changing the angle/turn out of his potential line of fire again and he's still losing ground.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<center>
http://jennirivers.actewagl.net.au/sig.jpg
SST X-45 profile (http://jennirivers.actewagl.net.au/fb.zip) | SST X-52 Profile (http://jennirivers.actewagl.net.au/fbx52.zip) | Joysticks & IL2/FB/PF (http://www.airwarfare.com/tech/sticks.htm) | IL2Sticks Utility (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#087)

WWMaxGunz
01-17-2007, 06:32 AM
Barrel roll can make you very hard to hit and leave you with directions to go.

slipBall
01-17-2007, 06:42 AM
Useing the barrel roll may force him to duplicate your move...or risk flying past you<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/orders.jpg

bazzaah2
01-17-2007, 07:39 AM
thanks people, the simhq article seems very good - plenty to digest there.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be
anything up to eight hundred yards long.

ljazz
01-18-2007, 11:09 AM
I got my hands on Boyd's Aerial Attack Study..... like you, I too thought that the vector roll was an offensive move.... but Boyd describes it as a defensive move(although he does talk about barrel roll attacks). What most of us call a vector roll is actually a lag displacement roll. I believe a vector roll is nothing more than rotating your lift vector around a common center axis (barrel roll).

Boyd describes the vector roll as a high g barrel roll underneath (figure 33 shown on page 102). He also describes a defensive high g barrel roll over the top. Both start with a max g break turn, and then barrel rolling while in the turn (just as the bandit starts pulling in to lead pursuit for a shot) with the rudder, using the ailerons only enough to keep you stable. Going over is used when your speed is high, and yields a better chance of going offensive. Going under is used when your speed is low, and yields a better chance of disengagement.

BTW..... Boyd's book rocks (both the Aerial Attack Study and his biography). This guy is probably the first guy to quantify all the "energy" stuff we like to talk about.

ljazz

Cajun76
01-18-2007, 11:36 AM
Works great against Ta's when I'm in my Jug. One of the few a/c that can run me down, but once he gets into firing range, careful timing will leave him unable to follow. Great for setting up the faster Ta for a buddy, even "BnZ" a/c like the Ta turn into turnfighters. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif They can't resist. That's why it gets laughable when some says they fly a BnZ a/c only, it's all relative to speed differences.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Good hunting,
(56th)'Cajun76
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/CajunsSig03.gif Magnum-PC.com (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory (http://www.musicmagicusa.com/zupanaccordions.htm) and a mime school (http://www.le-mime.com/accueil.htm). Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots