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Atomic_Marten
09-15-2004, 01:35 PM
I am curious to see what you folks think of this tactic? Are you use it in combat; or you avoid it whenever you can?

For me personally this tactic means a lot of fun. Especially offline vs. ACE AI in QMB. They are really good in head-on tactic...

About online, IMHO player who is capable of doing good head-ons have decent advantage over his oppo...

Atomic_Marten
09-15-2004, 01:35 PM
I am curious to see what you folks think of this tactic? Are you use it in combat; or you avoid it whenever you can?

For me personally this tactic means a lot of fun. Especially offline vs. ACE AI in QMB. They are really good in head-on tactic...

About online, IMHO player who is capable of doing good head-ons have decent advantage over his oppo...

Chuck_Older
09-15-2004, 01:41 PM
Any time I feel I can get a hit, I shoot. What the enemy is doing or what direction he is flying doesn't matter. If the odds are too high that I'll miss, I won't waste the ammo, but if I could get a chance to make a head on shot and the firing solution looked good, I'd take the shot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/BBB3.jpg
Killers in America work seven days a week~
Clash

tttiger
09-15-2004, 01:44 PM
Congrats.

You have just branded yourself as an arcade player rather than a a simmer.

With the exception of US pilots in very sturdy planes (most of them products of the Grumman Iron Works) versus fragile Japanese planes, head-ons were very rare in WWII. Chennault advocated them in P-40s versus Oscars, the Thach Weave was basically a maneuver to force a head-on. Hellcats frequently did head-on attacks against Zeros.

When I fly a mission, the object of the exercise to to accomplish the mission AND get home alive. An HO against a German plane is not in my bag of tricks and they are very easy to avoid. I think that's pretty true of real life flying in Europe.

But, if you approach it as an arcade game where you just dust yourself off and respawn when you lose the shoot-out, I suppose it's a valid tactic.

Just don't expect any history-minded pilots to take you or your opinions seriously http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nice troll, btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

F19_Ob
09-15-2004, 01:47 PM
I usually fly groundpounders or crippled fighters nowadays, and in those U have to take every opportunity to fire on all distances and situations.
headons are a nescessity. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Korolov
09-15-2004, 01:51 PM
Depends on the plane you're flying and the plane your opponent is flying. Some things should be avoided - and one of them is going head on with a Fw-190A-9 equipped with two Mk108s.

EDIT: And btw tiger, they did HO's in real life - by all sides. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

Platypus_1.JaVA
09-15-2004, 02:09 PM
When FB came first out, trying head-on with AI, was always suicide. Nowadays, it can be used against bombers and the like but, I always find it very hard to aim properly. Your fighters armament should also be very strong (FW-190 Me-262) because you got only a very small amount of time to shoot, before the target is behind you.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.


Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

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tttiger
09-15-2004, 02:12 PM
Kor,

With respect, I'm sure they were done in last ditch situations but only in the Pacific as a standard tactic. If you have evidence to the contrary, other than your opinion, please provide it. I don't think any Allied pilot in his right mind would purposely fly head to head against a Mk 108 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"...the effective head on envelope is very narrow (if it exists at all) and high closure decreases firing time to only a flash. Of course, the best defense against head-on guns may be to fire first and let the other guy worry about defense. It is very difficult to aim while dodging tracers. Such a game of "chicken." however, is probably not advisable if the opponent has a more lethal gun system or a less vulnerable aircraft."
-- Robert Shaw, "Fighter Combat."

As I only fly Allied (and mostly US or UK these days)and every LW plane has bigger guns and (except when I'm in the Jug) a lot more armor than I have, I avoid HOs. I suspect the same was true in real life.

On the other hand, if you want to HO my Sturmo, come on and try. Many have and I can't avoid them in that flying barge. So I fire at them. I've blown up many 109s at long range with those 23mm (the 37mm are even better).

As Chuck noted, if you've got a shot, take it, but don't fly straight on into an enemy plane. At least not a LW plane. It really wasn't done in real life, where there is no such thing as a respawn and Dead is Dead http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Atomic_Marten
09-15-2004, 02:40 PM
I was reading somewhere in this forum that in Battle of Britain Hurricane pilots would take every opportunity to take a head-on on German glass-nose bombers. Although I admit I may be wrong.

And in game, I was executed many head-ons against bombers and I could only tell good things about this tactic vs. bombers.

SlickStick
09-15-2004, 02:52 PM
I'm of the idea that a head-on attack between online pilots is usually 50-50 odds at best. Even if you're a great shooter, the odds of you getting whacked at the same time are pretty even.

I usually avoid them like the plague. Why take a chance on a head-on, when you have a better chance faking the head-on and going into a maneuver?

I see no need to give my enemies a direct chance to put bullets in me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

___________________________
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karost
09-15-2004, 03:32 PM
In real life situation in wwii air combat US pilot just fly only 30mission and back home while LW pilot fly till to die and LW pilot have a standard experience for head on shoot b-17 or other bomber with 20mm or 30mm , that's why a lot of documents point out to avoid head on with LW.

in game, head on with 190A not a good idea , but after they have new .50 well they no need to care about the history , p47 may like head on with 190A with 108 that is fun like arcade

for online, I don't like head on shoot , but roll out to make more room to line deflection shoot at 150 degree cut his flight path is more challenging ( but never success in AEP ) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

for off line , that is most fun and challenging, I like to use same plane as AI ace( 109 with mk108 ) full switch , for offensive HO will use zoom view and shoot him before he shoot me , for defensive HO I will roll out fast before he open fire , or fly left or right 10-30 degree and roll out to make a space for hi-degree deflection shoot for a skill-training ...
Oh man, that is fun.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Game is a game and history is a history

S!

[This message was edited by karost on Wed September 15 2004 at 02:40 PM.]

VW-IceFire
09-15-2004, 03:52 PM
Oh come on...nobody who flys the jug will do a headon with a FW190 and like it.

The only plane you do headons with is the FW190. You have the strength of airframe and the firepower to match. You can blast your way through opponents. Not to mention that the wing and center mounted guns can pretty much ensure that an average hit is going to cause some damage from at least one cannon.

All other fighters I avoid such confrontation. A 109, P-39, Mustang, Spitfire, or La-7 pilot should avoid these attacks at all costs. A P-47 pilot should do it against only a few targets (109's or maybe Zero's) but definately not against FW190's where the possibility for recieving substantial damage is so great.

As several pilots around here will say: "a headon attack is the last resort of a desperate fighter pilot who has run out of all other options".

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

berg417448
09-15-2004, 04:09 PM
I have read about a few head on attacks in the ETO.

I recall reading about a Spitfires vs Me-109's head on attack in the book WING LEADER. I also recall reading about a flight of P-47's which were about to be bounced from above and behind so they deliberately turned and climbed into a head on attack to break up the German attack.

They did occurr..... but it would appear that they sort of just happened based upon the tactical situation rahter than being planned.

LStarosta
09-15-2004, 04:14 PM
A pilot who completely rules out a tactic becomes all the more predictable to his enemy...

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!
Spitfire = Technoblabble(Oleg/"Favors Recieved" from [wo]men)^PI(Magic 8 Ball)(amount of LSD Taken+Booze)(Position of the Earth Relative to the Sun)(Position of the Sun relative to God)^2

"You must factor in the alignment of the planets for the day in which the equation is completed, because the Spit can harness the power of the Earth's rotation and we're working on harnessing the power of ALL rotating and revolving objects in our solar system, later the whole universe, thus boosting the Spit's top speed to r0xx0rz KPH." -Dr. Nathan Roberts

Flying online as (56th)*MRBROWN

SlickStick
09-15-2004, 04:26 PM
"A pilot who completely rules out a tactic becomes all the more predictable to his enemy..."

That only applies if you fly the SAME enemies everyday. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Most will think the head-on is coming, as I'll even go so far as to fire a small burst like I'm going for the head-on, then a quick juke up or down or left or right into the turn.

___________________________
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SlickStick
09-15-2004, 04:27 PM
And of course, just to keep'em guessing, I do go head-on now and then. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

___________________________
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Coming Soon to a Six near you...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VW-IceFire
09-15-2004, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
A pilot who completely rules out a tactic becomes all the more predictable to his enemy...

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!
Spitfire = Technoblabble(Oleg/"Favors Recieved" from [wo]men)^PI(Magic 8 Ball)(amount of LSD Taken+Booze)(Position of the Earth Relative to the Sun)(Position of the Sun relative to God)^2

"You must factor in the alignment of the planets for the day in which the equation is completed, because the Spit can harness the power of the Earth's rotation and we're working on harnessing the power of ALL rotating and revolving objects in our solar system, later the whole universe, thus boosting the Spit's top speed to r0xx0rz KPH." -Dr. Nathan Roberts

Flying online as (56th)*MRBROWN
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Considering that there are a multitudes of other tactics available and considering that you'd still use the headon attack as a last resort or in a move of desperation it doesn't make you all that predictable.

I must admit that I have become more predictable recently than I used to be. Usually because I've settled into my style...even so, I've done some new things recently that has thrown enemies off me like never before so a little unpredictability is best.

A new pilot is sometimes most dangerous since they have no routine and no established style.

I don't rule out a headon attack, but I do consider it sometimes a foolhardy manuver depending on the situation. The most common losses online seem to occur in the headon attacks where two fighters charge at each other jousting style with the result of one or both being lost.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

F19_Orheim
09-15-2004, 04:33 PM
I've got a thick skullhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg
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_________________
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Chuck_Older
09-15-2004, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
Congrats.

You have just branded yourself as an arcade player rather than a a simmer.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know who you're talking to, tiger, but you should know better than to start labelling people by now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/BBB3.jpg
Killers in America work seven days a week~
Clash

Friendly_flyer
09-15-2004, 04:35 PM
Well, for a head-on shot to effective, you need armament that's not too sensitive to convergence. With the added speed of two fighters flying at each other at full throttle, the useful window of fire for, lets say a Spitfire, is very limited. The three nose mounted 20mm's of an I-185 rather well suited on the other hand.

Personally, I'm a strict off-line flyer. Still, I only use the head on in situations where taking out the enemy as soon as possible is the only way to survive.

Fly friendly!

Petter B¸ckman
Norway

Korolov
09-15-2004, 04:41 PM
Tiger - Excerpt from "P-38 Lightning" by J. Ethell:

Oberleutnant Franz Stiegler, JG27

"One cardinal rule we never forgot was: avoid fighting a P-38 head on. That was suicide. Their armanent was so heavy and their firepower so murderous, that no one every tried that type of attack more than once."

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

BlastinFooz-619
09-15-2004, 04:44 PM
yea i think tiger needs to put down the COMPUTER GAME and stop talking about tactics and what REAL pilots did in REAL life like YOU were there, YOU are not a WWII flying veteran!! dont act like one, cuz congrats you just branded yourself a poser. AND this is a GAME, GAME, LET ME TYPE IT AGAIN IN CASE U DONT WANT TO ACCEPT IT.....GAME. STOP TRASHIN OTHERS FOR SEEING THIS GAME FOR WHAT IT IS ....A GAME.



nerd. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2004, 04:49 PM
Glad to see most of the people responding to this post have some sense.

Head-ons are the stupidest thing to do. It's truly the "hallmark of the noob".

You've identified the few situations in which it does make sense:

1) Thach Weave tactics (and, mitigating this situation is the idea that you're forcing a head-on between one plane that's distracted and on the tail of another, and the wingman of the pursued plane, rather than jousting)

2) Attacking bombers (where defensive fire is the least problem).

3)*Known* uneven gunnery matchups, such as P-38s vs. Oscars, FW190s vs. MG-only planes, etc. And even these are situations are dicey.

Fighter on fighter, it's just dumb. You should never give up a shot to get a shot; it's an unnecessary roll of the dice. The one exception to this being: if you're on the short end of a 1-vs-many situation, or damaged, then a HO might be the best shot you can ever expect to get. In those situations, you might be "happy" to get that shot, all things considered.

But, as a straight up fighting tactic, it's STUPID. Do the work to get behind your enemy's wingline before you start hosing away.

Chuck_Older
09-15-2004, 04:52 PM
headons can be done offline as well as online http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Let's not forget that FB can be played without being online. Headon attacks against AI are quite surviveable. Unless of course I am the greatest shot of all time, I can't see why you wouldn't be willing to headon the AI

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, when will we see your like again?

Korolov
09-15-2004, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr
Blah de blah de blah blah
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Arms up in air*

I give up, some of y'all are just hopeless...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

LStarosta
09-15-2004, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlastinFooz-619:
yea i think tiger needs to put down the COMPUTER GAME and stop talking about tactics and what REAL pilots did in REAL life like YOU were there, YOU are not a WWII flying veteran!! dont act like one, cuz congrats you just branded yourself a poser. AND this is a GAME, GAME, LET ME TYPE IT AGAIN IN CASE U DONT WANT TO ACCEPT IT.....GAME. STOP TRASHIN OTHERS FOR SEEING THIS GAME FOR WHAT IT IS ....A GAME.



nerd. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh no... He just called someone a poser...

That's so punk rock...


You might wanna call the IT guys so they'll fix your Caps Lock key... It's quite erratic.

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!
Spitfire = Technoblabble(Oleg/"Favors Recieved" from [wo]men)^PI(Magic 8 Ball)(amount of LSD Taken+Booze)(Position of the Earth Relative to the Sun)(Position of the Sun relative to God)^2

"You must factor in the alignment of the planets for the day in which the equation is completed, because the Spit can harness the power of the Earth's rotation and we're working on harnessing the power of ALL rotating and revolving objects in our solar system, later the whole universe, thus boosting the Spit's top speed to r0xx0rz KPH." -Dr. Nathan Roberts

Flying online as (56th)*MRBROWN

F19_Orheim
09-15-2004, 04:58 PM
Stiglr. I LOVE beeing able to be stupid in games... I mean it won't hurt me will ithttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I pray to G** that I don't get considered as a dunce because the way I play Games... as long as I have fun I have no problem with Head ons

Now in a REAL fight I NEVER Headbutt, I rather get sore knuckles than a concussion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg
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_________________
"Sine pennis volare hau facilest: meae alea pennas non habent."

horseback
09-15-2004, 04:58 PM
It was the standard response for many USAAF fighter pilots in the ETO. The RL reasoning was to take the initiative away from the enemy pilot; if he broke away first, he gave you an opportunity for a quick shot. RL pilots rarely had the marksmanship to hit a rapidly closing aircraft with anything like the consistancy of the Ace AI.

The RL pilot had his guns set to a convergence much too close for him to avoid collision if he waited for the enemy a/c to come into range. Don Blakeslee was cited by not only pilots in the 4th FG and the 354th FG, but also by the pilots in the two USAAF Spitfire groups which flew in N. Africa, who had some of the 'Eagle' squadron leaders and Flight leaders help 'break them in' in the late summer early fall of 1942.

Blakeslee stated in no uncertain terms that Jerry would always break away first, and for the most part, they reported that he was right. Still, I can picture some notable LW hard@ss telling his rookies that the 'Amis' and the Tommies would always break away first, because the Western democracies grew 'em soft and weak (and they fly girlie planes)...

Regardless of whether you hit him or not, when he broke away, he was reacting to your action, which conferred more than a psychological advantage. You knew where he was going, and he didn't know where you were, making you the pursuer and him the pursued.

Against the AI, it's a bad idea, because none of them have a set convergence range, and if you get in front of their sights, they'll hit you. Against a human opponent, in a RL environment, it's a very valid ploy. Online, it's a little chancier. I imagine the advantage goes to the best marksman or the party with nosemounted armament.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Chuck_Older
09-15-2004, 05:00 PM
I must be the best shot ever http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, when will we see your like again?

horseback
09-15-2004, 05:09 PM
Stiglr-

In many P-47 drivers' memoirs, they found themselve in a headon pass at the 190, and most of them probably felt safer behind their .50s and that R-2800 than their LW counterpart did behind that BMW and the MG 151s. With a closing speed of over 600mph, it'd be incredibly hard to make an accurate shot in any case.

Headons give you the smallest target in the shortest time to shoot at it. It's the same reason dove hunting is done with a shotgun.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

KonstantinL100
09-15-2004, 05:11 PM
Weird that this should come up because tonight I think I made my best ever kill...in a head-on.

Flying a Yak-7B, I went head to head to a Bf-109G2 armed with gunpods. Probably not such a good idea.

Anyway I dipped my nose to avoid the cannon fire, rolled and pulled up again and made a snap shot at the Messerschmidt. I fired one tracer shell - and it hit him right on the nose.

When I looked back the pilot had bailed and the 109 was spiralling towards the ground in flames.

A one in a thousand shot and my best ever kill.

chris455
09-15-2004, 05:12 PM
H2H was an important and viable tactic in WWII.
28 of Bongs 40 kills were H2H.
Was he a "noob"?
Thatch weave was also built around a H2H shot.

Never the ideal shot, a H2H situation favors the aggressive pilot. If you break and your cooler, bolder adversary tracks and takes the shot, you can end up taking fatal hits in the belly or cockpit. Sometimes the deadly mathematics of aircombat presented pilots with less than ideal choices. There must have been many times when a pilot found himself closing at high speeed with an enemy fighter at the exact same time his enemy noticed him. In such a deadly, split-second life or death moment, hesitation and caution work against you.

An aggressive pilot whose only thought is to kill will usually prevail.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Wed September 15 2004 at 05:13 PM.]

Chuck_Older
09-15-2004, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
It's the same reason dove hunting is done with a shotgun.

cheers

horseback

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, all the doves carry are bombs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, when will we see your like again?

BlastinFooz-619
09-15-2004, 05:28 PM
F-19 and Chris , couldnt have said it better, i know i got a little childish but hey i thought it was funny how uptight some of you guys get over a flight "simulator game" . pilots did do head on attacks during WWII no matter what any of you guys say, so calling them stupid is not acceptable when it was those pilots that had put their butts on the line so that you can sit there behind a comp screen and your plastic joystick only to have you call them stupid ....ha id like to see you say it to them in person. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif
so all of you that see this for a game ,,, good for you.
and for you others, get some women in your lives or somthin. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Mackane1
09-15-2004, 06:40 PM
HEAD-ON, BABY!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
http://home.si.rr.com/skywolf/70.jpg

http://home.si.rr.com/skywolf/MACKANE.jpg

Bearcat99
09-15-2004, 07:50 PM
Im with Chuck.. if I can make the shot I take the shot. Online however.. especially in the average DF server I tend to avoid it. I find that alot of people start shooting from way out and I tend to hold till I think I can hit. Head ons against a spray & prayer usually will result in the more tactfull pilot going down.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959)
IMMERSION BABY!!

SlickStick
09-15-2004, 08:59 PM
After reading further, I also agree head-ons are good for bombers or directly above. Usually can snag a few pilot kills on Heinkels and TB3s. Gunners can't shoot straight up, hehe. Well, except that whacky Pe-8 tail gunner.

Although, I'm not sure it's exactly vertical, I've seen those gunners on a Pe-8 make some wicked, wicked shots. Nasty, nasty, nasty and my fav AI plane to fly online. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I referred to online dogfighting previously. Bearcat brought up a good point about liking to be closer before shooting, as do I. Head-ons with 1km sprayers can be hazerdous to one's plane's health. Be sure.

I see no reason to give a free shot to a pilot that I may be able to out maneuver. Ya never know till ya try. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

___________________________
çk"*¯k 2004

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Coming Soon to a Six near you...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Skarp-Hedin
09-15-2004, 09:43 PM
don't go head on against a p-38 or fw-190. that's all I can say. and the P-38 can make some crazy shots, just a fyi.

~[AeA]-Skarp
http://tmfiles.net/aea1/index.php

tttiger
09-16-2004, 01:09 AM
Kor, I think your man was talking about real P-38s, not the POS 38s we have in FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good quote, tho, S!

ttt

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F19_Orheim
09-16-2004, 01:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
...Head ons against a spray & prayer usually will result in the more tactfull pilot going down....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bear buddy, could you please define a "tactful" gamer???

Also, does this mean that guys who some so eloqeuntly call "spray and prayers", SHOULD go head on because they most assurely will take down this "tactful" gamer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The reason for me to post and react in here is that I tend to notice a snobbish attitude sometimes around here, I am so tired of arrogance and this stupid "noob-talk"..... Good advice is one thing and appreciated, but good advice should not come with rudeness OR arrogance.


Most probably I am overreacting, but I blame it on one of the worst mornings ever.... SO please bear with me.

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[This message was edited by F19_Orheim on Thu September 16 2004 at 01:10 AM.]

Korolov
09-16-2004, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
Kor, I think your man was talking about real P-38s, not the POS 38s we have in FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually using the P-38 in a head on is fairly safe... But given that the guns jam pretty easy, I'm hesistant to do it unless the target is wallowing in the air trying to get up to my perch.

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

Copperhead310th
09-16-2004, 02:27 AM
190's you can Head on in a p-47 with some success. the trick it to not go DIRECTLY head on but as you close the distance veer off to the right or left just before they fire and kick full rudder into the enemy as he closes to with in 30 to 40M. and rake him as he goes by.
this puts you out of his gunline and works both as an offensive and defnesive move. But i will avoid scuh an attack if at all possible.
Zeros and a few other planes is suicide to head on with a p-47 with the proper convergence set up. A LOT of LW online pilots are over confadent in both thier aircaft and skill. I've seen it time and time again. they typiclly do somthing stupid just beause they think the 190 is invencible. and after a while you can begin to see a pattern with the LW flyers. after a while they tend to become more predictable.
lately i've taken to listening to them on coms.
lol it's actaully funny as hell. they are saying the same things about the red planes as we are about the blue planes. "man did you see that!? that's such bullsh*t! no way that p-51 should be out turning my ta-152 at sea level!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif hahahahaha
yeah right.

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WTE_Ibis
09-16-2004, 02:27 AM
You are right in the respect that the Brits did take the bombers head on to unnerve the german
crews sitting in the glass houses of Luft bombers.
I am pretty certain they refrained from using this tactic against their fighters.Russian roulette
wasn't a good tactic on the western front,or the BOB if you intended to have a beer in the officers mess that night. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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Atomic_Marten
09-16-2004, 05:35 AM
Guys thx for the input so far...

I have noticed that opinions on the head-on's are very different... from the acceptable opinions on the HO tactic to avoidable ones.

This way I would also like to point out chris455 words:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>chris455:
....28 of Bongs 40 kills were H2H.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is amazing. In WW2 to actually score *28 head on* killshttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif. This guy was for certain one of the best sharpshooters to fly in WW2 air forces overall. Not to mention brave...

geetarman
09-16-2004, 08:12 AM
It is a valid tactic to be used as the situation dictates.

I fly a Lightning. Say I find myself alone with a G2 who has the goods on me for whatever reason. He's now dead ahead with an alt advantage and is turning towards me. Due to his manueverability he'll be able to get on my six fairly quickly. If I can goad him into a HO and either knock him down or get that oil spraying all over his canopy, I' m going for it.

I'm not thinking "only a noob does this". Hell, Bong and many others looked for head-ons!

jurinko
09-16-2004, 08:31 AM
head on in 109 is no-no
P47 or 190 do fine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

---------------------
Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

karost
09-16-2004, 09:11 AM
I remember one time when I take 109G6 and I see one P-47 above me 500-700 meter about 2 km Heading to me so I have no way out then turn to him but I not direct pull up to head on with him I just drive down about -30 degree and keep look up at him ( I know when he see me like this he will wait to stay over me and spit-S to come in side my 6 ) when get close I pull up suddenly 90 degree fast when P-47 move under my gunsigh I pull mk108 and 13mm triggers short brush deflection at his flight path .... timing was match and very close 30mm bullet hit behind engine from under side ( under pilot seat ) I see big black smock and P-47 moving like the pilot sleeping http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

# this tactic is GNP license.... free for apply but not guarantee you can survive from H/O with P-47 like this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BinaryFalcon
09-16-2004, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Regardless of whether you hit him or not, when he broke away, he was reacting to your action, which conferred more than a psychological advantage. You knew where he was going, and he didn't know where you were, making you the pursuer and him the pursued.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Never the ideal shot, a H2H situation favors the aggressive pilot. If you break and your cooler, bolder adversary tracks and takes the shot, you can end up taking fatal hits in the belly or cockpit... An aggressive pilot whose only thought is to kill will usually prevail.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty much sum up my views on the matter. Unless I'm in something truly fragile, I'll take head ons as they come, and I usually wait for the other guy to break.

Sometimes that means we end up smacking into each other, but more often than not I'll score a few hits or at the least make him turn, which puts him on the defensive, not me.

Aggression is the key to survival. That's not to say you should be outright stupid, but given the choice between pushing for the kill and backing off a bit to 'play it safe', you're almost always better going for the kill.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-16-2004, 10:31 AM
Hi,

I avoid head ons with fighters because you just know they are going to end up with a collision. As I can't believe any real life pilot in his right mind would attempt this, so I don't either.

That's not to say that I won't head on with bombers (historically, far more likely).

It's another flaw in "real simulation". You can model the planes as accurately as possible but you can't model the fact that some twerp is going to fly into you to down you just because he knows he won't die for real when he does it.

i.e. like P47 Joes who know that they will come off smelling of roses if they hit you head on.

Cheers,
Norris

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